State Trad 3D titles

[Mick Smith]

Len,

Thanks for you input.

It would be very easy for any club entrusted to hold the state titles to provide for 3 bow categories in the prizes. Afterall, it's only one extra category to what some clubs have done in the past. I don't see the rules as being an issue at all.

Who would run it, you say? The way I see it, we would ask each club that nominates it's availability of host the state titles to offer one of it's members to sit on a special state title committee. This committee would run it. The committee would decide who would host the state titles by a ballot system. It wouldn't be difficult at all and it would be totally fair.

It could happen so very, very easily and it could be as early as next year.

Mick

[greybeard]

The ball in is our court. Let's do something with it.

Mick

'Let's do something with it.' Who is Let's?

Hi Mick, You rolled the ball, are you hoping that someone will pick it up and run with it?

Daryl.

[Mick Smith]

Daryl

The 'who', are the various committee members of the clubs that might be involved.

And yes, I'm hoping that these same people will recognise the benefits of the proposal and run with it.

This is what it would take for this state title concept to get off the ground. Even if a few of the various Victorian (or interstate) clubs started the ball rolling, the others may well follow suit. It will need the co-operation of many people to make it work.

If it happens, it happens. If not, then bad luck.

Mick

[greybeard]

Hi Mick,

As the states run different events at their trad shoots should a proposed ‘shoot format’ be drafted.

There maybe events such as ‘clout’ where clubs do not have sufficient open space to hold this type of event.

At a state level it may not present an immediate problem but if a national title shoot eventuates we need a level playing field.

Once a shoot format is drafted local clubs would be able to decide as to the suitability of their facilities to cater for such an event.

At North Albert we have just under 50 hectares of which about 99% is scrub.

Our trad shoot consists of 30 static 3D targets that are shot on Saturday and Sunday [60 targets in all]. Novelty events consist of a 5 arrow running target, 5 arrow bow bird and a 30 second speed round. Novelty event scores are added to the static target scores to get the overall winners in each bow class.

Hope this input helps to keep the ball rolling.

Daryl.

[Mick Smith]

Thanks Daryl. I hadn't really thought about having uniform events at any title event, as each club is different, as is their venue, as you've already pointed out.

I imagined that each club would continue with a format that was similiar with their past events. You see, the thing all these shoots have in common is a 3D or field course event, as well as other types of events.

In my mind, a state title shoot would only be composed of 3D or field course aspect of any shoot, not the other events. Although it could easily encompass other events as well, as the hosting club sees fit.

If, down the track, this series of title events escalates into a national affair, then it would be wise to host a series of set events. The reason being that many competitors would travel long distances and they might as well shoot whichever events that can be comfortable fitted into the program.

Down here in Victoria, we rarely have an overall winner for each shoot, but rather a series of winners of each individual event.

I rather like the idea of having a set program for a national event that encompasses all the major trad events, including moving targets and speed rounds. This would make any national event be able to determine not just our national 3D champion, but an overall trad champion. Seeing as this is still a long way down the track, so to speak, perhaps it would be best to focus on state titles first though. We need to learn to crawl before we try to walk.

The progam for any possible future national event might be an interesting subject in its own right and as such it would surely make an interesting thread on its own.

Mick

[Mick Smith]

I have managed to persuade a few people of the benefits of this proposal. What we propose to do next is to lobby the Victorian club 'movers and shakers' in an effort to gain some co-operation and acceptance of hosting state titles at some time in the future.

So, if you're an influencial member of a Victorian club, expect to be confronted with the proposal and to be asked of your views sometime soon. If you think it's rubbish, that's okay, but if you do want to see the day when traditional archery takes it's next step into a big and bright future, then it will be easier than you might have expected.

I know I've concentrated mainly on the Victorian trad shoot scene on this thread, but I would like nothing better than to see other states step up to the plate. Afterall, the new Victorian state title holder will need some competition at the next level.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time and has had the interest in this proposal to have read up to this far on this rather long and sometimes ranting thread.

Mick

[greybeard]

Hi Mick,

You beat my reply but here it is;

In regards to a shoot format I guess one of the stumbling blocks in categorizing ‘traditional archery’ is how people perceive and their interpretation of the word ‘traditional’.

To some it may be warfare, to others hunting or a social pastime using traditional equipment.

The main theme in traditional shoots appears to be based around the use of 3D targets, hence the perception of a hunting environment. It is because of this perception our novelty events are based on a hunting type scenario.

I have no problems in accepting clout [did it evolve from warfare?] or other activities involving traditional bows being run at traditional events.

It’s all about getting arrows in the air and having fun.

The reason for including the novelty event scores at our shoots served two purposes; firstly it encouraged people to participate in all events and secondly it gave the hunting archer an opportunity to gain extra points over a dedicated target archer.

Do you think there is merit in producing a questionnaire to be circulated at traditional shoots as to what format the participants would prefer?

Daryl.

[Mick Smith]

Daryl

As it stands now, the hosting clubs nominate the events which they will be holding. We need the co-operation of the clubs involved to get the concept of having title shoots off the ground. I believe that most clubs would resent being told what to do, however I also believe that most club event co-ordinators would be extremely interested to find out what competitors prefer to experience at shoots.

As has already been pointed out on this thread, some venues simply don't allow for events such as clout, as there isn't the room for it. Therefore, I would be inclined to leave clout events as a separate title shoot at this stage. We could have separate state clout titles quite easily. There might be some advantage in having any future national shoot include clout in their agenda though, if time allowed.

I haven't answered your question very well, as I believe these sorts of questions would be best delt with by a special state title organising committee, made up of one member from each participating club.

Mick

[longbowinfected]

If distance for clout is a problem, simply run a flu flu into the garbage bin event at 60-65 metres. Not just a novelty shoot, not as easy as some would think and a heap of fun. You could make it trickier by floating the bin in a dam for instance. Everyone should have a set of 6 flu flus. Blunts or field points should be OK. Most venues can manage that sort of distance.

Kev

[GrahameA]

Morning All

I haven't answered your question very well, as I believe these sorts of questions would be best delt with by a special state title organising committee, made up of one member from each participating club.

IMHO I hold the opinion that you are wrong. Although it may be the only workable option.

The basis for why I say this can be found in the U.S. Amateur Sports Act of 1978 (and its successors). Don't think of the Act but rather the underlying effects of its presence. i.e. it ensures that that those who are playing the game get a say in how the game is played. Not just those who hold only hold positions.

I have bolded what I consedr the important words:
b]The Act requires that active athletes (defined as amateur athletes who have represented the United States in international amateur competition within the last ten years) must hold 20 percent of the voting power of any board or committee in an NGB.

some references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_Sports_Act_of_1978
Ted Steven's Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Steven ... Sports_Act
For those that are interested this makes for an interesting read http://videos.usoc.org/legal/TedStevens.pdf

Yes, it may seem to have little to do with what you are suggesting however good governance and representation is one of the foundations of any successful organisation.

[Mick Smith]

Grahame

I believe my suggestion that the organising of any state title event being done by a committee made up of one person from each of the participating clubs is exactly what good representation for all the competitors should be. It would be extremely fair and each potential competitor would have access to their committee member to put forward their questions, etc.
It's certainly the best solution I can come up with.

Talking about it here on Ozbow isn't particularly representational, as I believe the majority of potential competitors don't log on to this site. They do have dialog with their club's officials though.

How would you suggest it best be done?

Mick

[longbowinfected]

The last thing we need is trying to create another large formal archery organisation.
You start making rules about how you make rules and the problems start, for mine.
The trad scene is fresh and growing because it is done on a handshake without being bogged down by bureaucracy.
If events are well run they survive.
Do we need state or national trad championships.....I do not think so.
Similar simple rules though allow folk to go to a number of different venues and fit in....easily. That concept works. I know a few of the Victorian archers had strong views that were changed quite quickly when they travelled up to Robert McKenzies' shoot[s]. His shoots were based on accepting Perry's/Darryl's rules. From what I have seen of the HVTA shoots they are very similar and have been going on for 10 years or so. If changes occur because of cross fertilization that is good too. I would not recommend putting barriers on something that is naturally free flowing...that is the heart and soul of trad events...truly grass roots orientated and directed not top down directed like AA.

Kev

[Mick Smith]

Kev

I'm not saying that any organising committee would have to be a big new body. It would simply be one member from each club that currently holds 3D or field events and want's to participate in the state title program. The committee would be a loose body of people who could implement the state titles, but the final organising of any one particular event would still come down to the hosting club.

All trad shoots that we currently have right now, are organised by individual clubs. The rules vary and the event vary and that's fine. The atmosphere is laid back and relaxed, as it should be, because there aren't over riding national body rules to worry too much about. This would never change in my view of how the state titles should be shot.

I want it to be a casual, laid back affair. I want it to be open for all, regardless of whether they belong to one particular national body or even if they don't happen to be a member of a club. The entry fees would be low. There wouldn't be any need to fork out large sums of money to any organisation before competing for the largest prize in state traditional archery. It would be the largest current prize because due to the lack of restrictions, it would have the most representation from trad archers in general. I don't think for one minute that the winner of an AA organised shoot, would be the best in that field, simply because of the reduced numbers of competitors who would compete in it.

This thread is supposed to be all about state title shoots, not a national shoot. I've been at fault as much as anyone in referring to a possible national shoot. It's hard not to, but we must learn to crawl before we try to walk and state shoots are the obvious next step, if we want to head in that direction.

Any state title shoot would be organised on the strength of a handshake and goodwill between the various clubs. Nothing would change in that regard. It would simply be another trad event that was going to happen anyway, except it would have a change of name, ie, the state title event and the trophies would indicate that fact. It woud still be laid back at as much fun as any other shoot, except for the excitement of seeing the big 'socko' finish in that years trad shoot calendar.

There are many, many people who go to trad shoots who don't belong to any of the big national archery bodies. These people would never have the opportunity to compete in a title event. There are many competitors who don't even belong to an archery club. The proposed state title event would allow these people to participate in something they otherwise wouldn't.

I keep on saying that the rules are unimportant. I'm quite happy to abide with the rules that were used at the Wiseman Ferry shoot (even though I wasn't there) and many of the 'movers and shakers' of the Victorian trad scene have a similair point of view.

It's all about being inclusive of all, where all people get to shoot and not the exclusiveness of the big, over organised, national body shoots. I can't understand why people don't jump at the chance to remove barriers in our sport.

Do we need a state title shoot? Hell no, we don't need one, just like we don't need a new bow or a new set of arrows. We might not need it, but we would certainly enjoy it.

Mick

[longbowinfected]

Fair enough.....I would hazard a guess that a lot would agree.

Out of that large group fewer would turn up to the meeting.....nothing unusual about that.
More likely to work with fewer people and clubs to start with. The rest would join in along the way if and when they see the value.

Kev

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

After spending a few days at the recent Nationals and being involved for a few months before that I would make the suggestion that anyone contemplating running a National Event go and be involved with such an event on the organising/running side.

The experience will stand you in good stead when you run your own.

[longbowinfected]

Oursmall Mountain Archersclub ran two State Indoortitlesa few years ago. They were great but it is highly unlikely that wewill ever do that again.

Kevin

[UPTHETOP]

Just an idea Kev in NQ. The recent ABA Qld state titles held at Charters Towers had an incredible 4 longbowers entered.( yes four longbowers for a state title ) I ashore you if it was held in Brissie the numbers would have been a lot larger.
See the problem we have up here Mick we have to travel 1500klm to get to a decent Trad event.
( except for Tully bowhunters of course.)
Yes Time and money something most of us dont have these days.
Then as in every other sport the real champion at the top is not often the best but the one who can afford to pay his own way to state, nationals, and world titles.

I hope you do get something of the ground as you cant have enough Trad events whatever the type,
I do wish I could live down there where you can pick and choose your events and if you want you can shoot nearly every weekend Trad.
Personally I like the 3D way I can shoot paper anytime I want in me back yard. And most 3 D courses have to be set in the bush and most are challanging shots.
If you did get something of the ground and state titles did come around I would consider going as long as it had a D-grade class to match me shooting and isnt on the same weekend of the Gladstone longbow and recurve muster.
There gonna be my state titles for the next few years.

Sorry I am trying to be constructive.

Cheers Wayno