Calling all AA longbow target shooters

[GrahameA]

Simon

A small suggestion if I may. Small flecthes and light shafts may be your solution. From personal experience 150 can be a challenge with a 30lb bow but is "doable"

[longbowinfected]

Thanks for sharing that Simon

My 11 year old daughter shot some clouts this year with a 22# longbow.
I made up 1516 Jazz with 4 short low profile helical parabolics about 1.75 inches long. We practised at the incorrect distance of 125 metres and she was good. Boy she was really unhappy when she found out that she was supposed to shoot at 100 metres as a cub. She found it harder.

I use a 43# for target and clout and a 33# for field and indoor.
I found that the distance on a windy day was a problem for clout.
I always felt that 50# would be better but took the view better to shoot under pounded comfortably all day. Also easier to maintain form if you take a week off.
I also found that timbers were really difficult. Felt great but I wasn't always getting the distance at clout the way I was set up.
I found 1716 red stalkers with 4 very small feathers worked really well and I averaged in the mid thirties each end even in very windy conditions.
I had been using a low brace height. I have since been advised by other long time longbowers that it should be higher by a couple of inches.
With some really good improved timber arrows I have made I am going to give it another go.

I did however buy some cheapo thin ramin [imported hardwood] arrows used for beginners and schools from John McDonald of AMSO 128 as blanks. I was confident in doing this as I had worked with them before and was surprised at their spine rates.
I got some very light 70 grain chisel points from him. I hand cut very low profile 10mm high and 25 mm long fletches cut like a shark's fin with the most radical helical set for four feathers. These are really light, tough and flexible. As long as it was not very windy these worked almost as good as the 1716 red stalkers. BUT they were always on the front part of the target...hardly ever overshot. I think now with a bit of tweeking with the brace height I might be able to do it with timbers with my 43#.

Ever since going to one trad shoot and a couple of ABA shoots after making a not pretty but well matched set of timbers with 5 inch hellicals I have enjoyed shooting the timbers more than metals with only a 10-15 % reduction in scores from 30-50 metres. I still need to figure out 60, 70 & 90 metres..... I only averaged 25/60 for 60 metres - 20/60 for metals at 90 metres the six or seven times I tried it. AA longbow does not shoot these distances.


I reckon you make up one or two of a trial set of 1416, 1516, 1616 plus with light ramin. Use Jazz to be cheaper and give it a go. Having said that
X7 in similat **13 or **14 are lighter and stronger and shoot better groups IMO.

I would like some comment from the Professor or Graham, they have a much greater grounding in this...I have only shot longbow for two years.

Kevin

Kevin Girard

[Len]

longbowinfected, why the helical fletch when you're looking for greater distance from a lighter bow ? Don't helical fletches pull you're arrows up a lot quicker ?

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Grahame

Steve Roberts. who came originally from Adelaide Archery Club to Canberra was an absolute fount of knowledge re longbows. Very unfortunately he died last year and his ashes were spread over our field course, but amongst other things he maintained that you could shoot clout with any longbow 30lbs and over, given the right arrows and fletch size. I'm about to reply to Kevin, but I built some ramin 6mm arrows. Used 4" fletches which is all I had at the time and some 40 grain points from AS. Fletches too big and points too light (FOC 5-7%). They got OK to 125m which leaves me 20m plus a bit of extra leeway for headwind. Maybe with heavier points or alloys that Kevin had described I can get a bit closer.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks for sharing that Simon

My 11 year old daughter shot some clouts this year with a 22# longbow.
I made up 1516 Jazz with 4 short low profile helical parabolics about 1.75 inches long. We practised at the incorrect distance of 125 metres and she was good. Boy she was really unhappy when she found out that she was supposed to shoot at 100 metres as a cub. She found it harder.

I use a 43# for target and clout and a 33# for field and indoor.
I found that the distance on a windy day was a problem for clout.
I always felt that 50# would be better but took the view better to shoot under pounded comfortably all day. Also easier to maintain form if you take a week off.
I also found that timbers were really difficult. Felt great but I wasn't always getting the distance at clout the way I was set up.
I found 1716 red stalkers with 4 very small feathers worked really well and I averaged in the mid thirties each end even in very windy conditions.
I had been using a low brace height. I have since been advised by other long time longbowers that it should be higher by a couple of inches.
With some really good improved timber arrows I have made I am going to give it another go.

I did however buy some cheapo thin ramin [imported hardwood] arrows used for beginners and schools from John McDonald of AMSO 128 as blanks. I was confident in doing this as I had worked with them before and was surprised at their spine rates.
I got some very light 70 grain chisel points from him. I hand cut very low profile 10mm high and 25 mm long fletches cut like a shark's fin with the most radical helical set for four feathers. These are really light, tough and flexible. As long as it was not very windy these worked almost as good as the 1716 red stalkers. BUT they were always on the front part of the target...hardly ever overshot. I think now with a bit of tweeking with the brace height I might be able to do it with timbers with my 43#.

Ever since going to one trad shoot and a couple of ABA shoots after making a not pretty but well matched set of timbers with 5 inch hellicals I have enjoyed shooting the timbers more than metals with only a 10-15 % reduction in scores from 30-50 metres. I still need to figure out 60, 70 & 90 metres..... I only averaged 25/60 for 60 metres - 20/60 for metals at 90 metres the six or seven times I tried it. AA longbow does not shoot these distances.


I reckon you make up one or two of a trial set of 1416, 1516, 1616 plus with light ramin. Use Jazz to be cheaper and give it a go. Having said that
X7 in similat **13 or **14 are lighter and stronger and shoot better groups IMO.

I would like some comment from the Professor or Graham, they have a much greater grounding in this...I have only shot longbow for two years.

Kevin

Kevin Girard

Kevin

There is some really good information here and I appreciate you sharing it. I have taken a lot of this on board. I haven't been shooting a longbow much longer than you, not counting a year back in 1990, but had a year and a half apprenticeship with BB recurve before the bent stick.

Back to field for a moment. One of my rationales for 400 gr wood shafts ( 100gr points included) with the 30 lb bow was that my point of aim would have a reduced margin of error with an aiming point closer to target centre for everything but 40m than if I used lighter alloys. Point on is at 35m with a cheekbone anchor and I have to aim 40 cm above centre for 40m. Against that aluminiums are uniform weight and spine and though I try to match both with my woods you never quite get close to identical. Just wondered what weight points you use in those lighter aluminium shafts for field? Hate to show my ignorance but what is Jazz? I'm really impressed that you have shot at 90m. That was the max for a York round and not at all easy with a longbow.

Cheers

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon, Kevin, et al

A few comments re. Clout.

Ramin is a great timber in many ways but it is not the ideal choice if you are having trouble with distance as it is reasonably heavy. I would look for something lighter. POC as an example.

Going with extreme low FOC values is not conducive to accuracy.

As Len suggested helical may not be an appropriate choice. You will have more drag compared to a straight fletch. My choice in this situation would be a small straight fletch with just a small offset angle. The arrow will spin due to the difference in drag on each side of the feather. (Plus there is probably some natural curvature that is inducing some spin.) However, I would not expect any stabilisation due to the arrow rotation.

Jazz are a low priced Easton Aluminium shaft. They are targeted at the beginner archer / juniors. Personally, they are a great shaft for the dollar. They are available in a number of sizes at the lower end of "spine" values. And they will last well - if you keep them on the soft part of the target (and do not hit them with other arrows). The variation between shafts is small and you will find it a challenge to get a set of wood arrows to match them.

30lb Longbow. Personally I think it depends a little on the bow - I would have a few concerns with some self ELB's I have seen. But it would probably apply to the modern bows.

I have seen one example with a 40lb Flatbow where the archer was not able to make 100 yards. The real issue was the 5" fletches on the arrows. A reduction to 2" had an astounding effect. One of my bows on loan. Lucky I had some extra arrows.

Clout is a discipline that I just do not shoot often enough and I think that also applies to many others. As such we are wandering a little in the dark with it sometimes. There is a big performance difference going from the simpler longbows to modern designs.

Adelaide Archery Club does seem to be a bit of home to Longbow shooters. Hmmm........

Just a final thought - regarding distance. A move from Dacron to a more modern string material will given you a few more yards as will barreling the shafts.

Now I think I will drag a dozen shafts off the rack and make some clout arrow ranged for for 150 metres for my Samick 30lb Longbow..

[longbowinfected]

sorry, i forgot to say that i use a bamboo core bow with fastflight string with strongly reinforced string nocks.

i get great results using the formula from experience of 7.5 grains of arrow per pound of draw weight for clout BUT two sizes down from what you would use for target. for target on a 43# bow i use 10 grains per pound draw and finf 1913-1914-1916 size but go down to 320 grain 1716 arrows for clout. my best timbers have been 380 grain scott's pine [with 70 grain points included in overall mass]

i reckon for 30# that you will need about 220-240 grain 1516 jazz aluminium arrows with minimal chisel points with no excess arrow overhang.

i suggest 4xfeathers cut 25 mm long and triangular in shape being 8mm high at most. i use the hellical pattern or really angled flights to quickly stabilize the arrow going up to the flight apex but to cope with the inordinately high cosswinds where i shoot comps.

Kevin Girard

[longbowinfected]

FOR FIELD

i alternate between a 30# and 43# bow.
I have used 430 grain timber arrows with the heavier draw realy well.


with both the lower and heavier draw bows i have used the one set of arrows being easton x7 1914 aluminium arrows with 125 grain points. These usually accommodatel 7% or 9% hollow nibs. My mate Steve showed me how to fill the hollow nibs with solder so you can bulk them up from 63 grains or 90 grains.

you really have to tune each bow to the arrows and i found that my upper string nocking point on my heavier bow worked best 3mm below dead centre which surprised me.

the heavier arrows on the lighter bow work really well but i get a very small amount of slap on the lower hen feather. i chose to ignore that because my aiming points using a point of reference on the bow against the target face are all on the face if i use a mediterranean release with under chin anchor. the other point was that x7's aren't cheap and how many sets can you own and use?by the way at some tournaments/clubs they will not let you use woods with metal points in case we leave points behind and kill a nano or two.

this means that using a 30# bow for indoor works really well, especially if you use large 5 inch feathers. try it.

I reckon that if we could make stripped / reglued bamboo arrows around the 300grain mark we could be shooting 60 metre target with bamboo core longbows of 30# draw and even better really good scores for 70 & 90 metres using 43# longbows...over to you Graham.

Kevin Girard

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Kevin and Grahame

I'm going into Archery Supplies today to see if I can get a couple of trial 1516's today. Will probably be Cartel because I don't think they stock Jazz but I can get them quickly. Really appreciate this information.

Graeme, 6mm ramin cut to 28" with my too light 40 grain points can come in as light as 280 grains, so while it's a relatively heavy wood at 5/16 diameter is OK at 6mm. Having said that, matching weights is not so easy.

Cheers

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

FOR FIELD

i alternate between a 30# and 43# bow.
I have used 430 grain timber arrows with the heavier draw realy well.


with both the lower and heavier draw bows i have used the one set of arrows being easton x7 1914 aluminium arrows with 125 grain points. These usually accommodatel 7% or 9% hollow nibs. My mate Steve showed me how to fill the hollow nibs with solder so you can bulk them up from 63 grains or 90 grains.

you really have to tune each bow to the arrows and i found that my upper string nocking point on my heavier bow worked best 3mm below dead centre which surprised me.

the heavier arrows on the lighter bow work really well but i get a very small amount of slap on the lower hen feather. i chose to ignore that because my aiming points using a point of reference on the bow against the target face are all on the face if i use a mediterranean release with under chin anchor. the other point was that x7's aren't cheap and how many sets can you own and use?by the way at some tournaments/clubs they will not let you use woods with metal points in case we leave points behind and kill a nano or two.

this means that using a 30# bow for indoor works really well, especially if you use large 5 inch feathers. try it.

I reckon that if we could make stripped / reglued bamboo arrows around the 300grain mark we could be shooting 60 metre target with bamboo core longbows of 30# draw and even better really good scores for 70 & 90 metres using 43# longbows...over to you Graham.

Kevin Girard

Thanks Kevin

Just saw this after I posted. I reckon the 30lb bow should be spot on for indoor and thanks for the info. Re your reference to heavier arrows on the lighter bow I put some 125 grain points on POC's that had broken from 281/2" to 271/2". Previously they'd had 100 grain points and spined for my 40lb bow but also shot OK out of the 48#. All up the shortened POC's with their 125 points weighed just over 400 grains. They shot suprisingly well out of the 30# LB and even at 40m I didn't get much drop. Great tip re upping the nib weights and thanks. So far I have been lucky re AA clubs not being fussed about woods but I know some are agin the field points.

Cheers

Simon

[longbowinfected]

not much of this has been my original stuff.
I learnt a lot from reading stuff in books, on this site, a heap from Steve Farrell and whilst working with him and to beat him [only on the odd occasion and at the home range- bugger grows legs at comps]. The other guys to listen to are Ian Fenton, the Professor, Uncle Les, Graham and Arthur Fisk.....couple of hundred years of experience which needs to be put into a book. It takes longer to learn the longbow artform and most have to do it alone. If we want to expand this we should organize some workshops inviting novices. The new people take a while to realize that every good long bow archer / trad shooter learnt from others, that they hold the info as a trust and unlike a number of elite target shooters using Recurve and Compound bows are prepared and happy to really share.

By way of example, check out the Archery Forum site under target and indoor and see how discussion on changing/combining divisions [for only bare bow] progresses. You might further better understand why I am trying to get some extra bare bow folk, especially longbow archers along to the AA nats and AA indoor coming

Kevin Girard

[hue]

Hi guys

Hue from Yarra Bowmen here, just to pass on some info i recieved from Merv Grinstead of Twin City Archers, who are hosting the Nationals (and he himself is Judging co-ordinator for AV), to shoot the Nats. you have to be a member of the association (that is Archery Australia), the temporary player forms won't cut it.
Also, the Meditteranean release is not set in cement, rather it is a "duty of care" motion because FITA are worried about nock explosions that close to the eyes, so they recommend the Med. release only, i'd like to see that enforced on a horsebow.

regards Hue

[Brumbies Country]

not much of this has been my original stuff.
I learnt a lot from reading stuff in books, on this site, a heap from Steve Farrell and whilst working with him and to beat him [only on the odd occasion and at the home range- bugger grows legs at comps]. The other guys to listen to are Ian Fenton, the Professor, Uncle Les, Graham and Arthur Fisk.....couple of hundred years of experience which needs to be put into a book. It takes longer to learn the longbow artform and most have to do it alone. If we want to expand this we should organize some workshops inviting novices. The new people take a while to realize that every good long bow archer / trad shooter learnt from others, that they hold the info as a trust and unlike a number of elite target shooters using Recurve and Compound bows are prepared and happy to really share.

By way of example, check out the Archery Forum site under target and indoor and see how discussion on changing/combining divisions [for only bare bow] progresses. You might further better understand why I am trying to get some extra bare bow folk, especially longbow archers along to the AA nats and AA indoor coming

Kevin Girard

You have a terrific bank of knowledge at Liverpool and the rest of us sort of learn by trial and error with a fair bit of the latter. However there's a strong element of enjoyment in a semi-scientific assessment of what works for one individually. It is really good though to get some of that knowledge directly and I appreciate it.

Re your Archery Forum entry I saw it and heartily agree. I have had this arguement before and can't think of anything extra to add that you haven't already thought about. Trouble is there is a strong element of belief that awards stop with those of relative youth who shoot compound or recurve freestyle, whereas we who shoot longbow and barebow and with a certain amount of age accumulation enjoy the relative battle just as much and deserve the honours when we do get up, but they have us consigned to some bracket that doesn't much matter.

WSimon

[Brumbies Country]

Hi guys

Hue from Yarra Bowmen here, just to pass on some info i recieved from Merv Grinstead of Twin City Archers, who are hosting the Nationals (and he himself is Judging co-ordinator for AV), to shoot the Nats. you have to be a member of the association (that is Archery Australia), the temporary player forms won't cut it.
Also, the Meditteranean release is not set in cement, rather it is a "duty of care" motion because FITA are worried about nock explosions that close to the eyes, so they recommend the Med. release only, i'd like to see that enforced on a horsebow.

regards Hue

Hi Hue

While I absolutely agree that a longbow should be shot with a Mediterranean release I'm not sure about the consistency of FITA/AA thinking there. The barebow recurvers legitimately string walk and with the close shots the nock is very close to the eye yet it is fine under AA and FITA rules. Our knocks more likely to come off-I don't think so.

Simon

[hue]

Hi Simon

here, here!

Hue

[longbowinfected]

earlier I mentioned a few people and I really forgot five other guys I have competed against/shot with with: Bob Sheehan who is a joy to watch and who first advised me, Ian Stokes who challenged everything that I had learnt and who showed me that using a bowsling really works with longbow, Kevin Hulbert & Ken Payne who really showed me that you can use really light low spined soft arrows and Craig who really has a fun thing to say even in the rain on the course.

Steve Farrell and I are members at Mountain Archers but I guess we get a great assist from the Liverpool guys. They really know their stuff and they have a great attitude. You can shoot clout, field, target and part indoor there, they are really well set up

If we all shot together on a regular mini circuit we would all learn a lot.

Kevin

[hardgainer]

Hi Hue....Many thanks for posting the Nats info it cleared up queries I had. As a matter of interest re LB 3 under shooters has there been any Oz recorded LB injury due to nock explosion. Has any one witnessed a injury . The major % of LB shooter's I move with are in the main 3 under shooters. Personally I prefer 3 under as a release style.

[Brumbies Country]

It is doable! The 1516's can make the 145m clout distance out of a 30lb longbow and very grateful thanks for the advice that led to this.

I put the two arrows together just before dinner last night and went out to shoot west to east into a moderately strong easterly. Had to chase away inquisitive sheep. I thought about Grahame's choice of low or high route and initially picked the low into the breeze and came up significantly short. Went the high road, I'd reckon about 40-45 degrees roughly-just short Extended the draw length about 3/4" and had one that went 10m beyond the flag and the other around 6m beyond. It's good to know they will get there into a breeze. Will have to do some work now to get them closer to the money. I've shot 3 clouts before, two nationals and one ACT championship. They have all been pretty forgetable . Any way this year's nationals have another LB clout contender!

I really appreciate the advice I've had from this thread.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Hue....Many thanks for posting the Nats info it cleared up queries I had. As a matter of interest re LB 3 under shooters has there been any Oz recorded LB injury due to nock explosion. Has any one witnessed a injury . The major % of LB shooter's I move with are in the main 3 under shooters. Personally I prefer 3 under as a release style.

Can only quote over two years experience but I've seen a number of ABA longbowers shoot 3 under and not a one eyed shooter among them nor any sign of nocks detaching during competition, nor any anecdotal reference to historical eye injury .

[longbowinfected]

Try a bit heavier say 1616 , 1716 as well as your 1516 for 60 metres and down and shoot distance. The difference between shooting at a smaller target at 40 metres in field to hitting a 122 cm face at 60, 50, 40 should be doable if you tweek point mass and arrow mass to 300 grains or so

About the clout, optimal is 43.5 degrees.
Try using a 5 or 6 inch armguard.
stand straight like shooting target.
aim like target
then bend at the hips to 45 degrees which is halfway between hands over your head and normal target.

THEN when at 45 degrees move your back foot back about a foot.
Then use your armguard bottom edge as a sight on to the line of the clout..this helps elevation...adjust by banging your head, oh and moving your armguard up or down your arm for micro adjustment and hope you do not get sweaty....sight moves
windage is calculated by using the line of the bow against gaps observed such as the different coloured flags.

Barebow recurvers seem to all have large manufacturers labels on the lower limb which may be used to judge elevation.

Kevin

[Brumbies Country]

Try a bit heavier say 1616 , 1716 as well as your 1516 for 60 metres and down and shoot distance. The difference between shooting at a smaller target at 40 metres in field to hitting a 122 cm face at 60, 50, 40 should be doable if you tweek point mass and arrow mass to 300 grains or so

About the clout, optimal is 43.5 degrees.
Try using a 5 or 6 inch armguard.
stand straight like shooting target.
aim like target
then bend at the hips to 45 degrees which is halfway between hands over your head and normal target.

THEN when at 45 degrees move your back foot back about a foot.
Then use your armguard bottom edge as a sight on to the line of the clout..this helps elevation...adjust by banging your head, oh and moving your armguard up or down your arm for micro adjustment and hope you do not get sweaty....sight moves
windage is calculated by using the line of the bow against gaps observed such as the different coloured flags.

Barebow recurvers seem to all have large manufacturers labels on the lower limb which may be used to judge elevation.

Kevin

Wow, nothing quite like being coached on the forum . I have used the lower limb label re barebow recurve, but must admit to not having any real idea re clout with a longbow and these tips should help considerably. The only bit I don't get is the banging the head bit. What's the go there?

Thanks alot again.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon

It sounds as if you have those arrows ranged nicely. You know that there max range is the required distance. Now if you draw then a little further you can lower the angle and similarly if you trim the fletches a little you can drop the angle. And you can change the mass by changing tips - but that sounds a trifle annoying.

Doesn't that make life a little easier.

An just think you now have the opportunity of watching your arrows twinkle in the sky as they catch the rays of the setting sun. It is like watching Javelin at an Atletics meet in the evening. There is true grace and beauty in watching the flight of the javelin - especially those that have been decorated.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Grahame

Can relate to watching the flight with wonderment. Last night they didn't twinkle so much as merge into the gathering gloom, though the gloom was somewhat enlightened by their proximity to the flag . Had a minor fear when one young ewe wandered into the target area seemingly wishing to be transferred to mutton.

Simon

[longbowinfected]

Sorry Simon
my sick sense of humour......if you ever shoot with Craig Williams, myself and Steve Farrell you have to fight hard because the kwik quips come hard and fast with barbs. Craig is really quick and wicked..half second delay on his worst day.

We delight in good naturedly referring to robo bowmen as having "training wheels" [cams] and whenever we hear one of them bitching about having problems with sight settings one of us will invariably
say "have to adjust my sights too" we hit our noggins top or bottom side [depending on elevation or windage whilst blinking our eyes, hanging out our tongues and dribbling.......it soon shuts them up and puts them in their place. I chuckle every time I see tools come out, bits come loose, rubber bits break and arrows are smashed because they forget about the fact that the dirty big heavy sight right in front of their eyes needs adjustment.

Hey I like most of those guys but I think they tend to be a bit too serious.
Got to respect the ability and effort, doubt whether they would get a feed in the bush if any gear plays up.

Kevin

[Brumbies Country]

Fair enough Kevin, I'll pay that .

[GrahameA]

Simon

If you are really keen you can run a strip of holographic tape helically along the shaft - just like the Javelin throwers - gives extra twinkle.

Kevin

You may be surprised just how good without sights some of those archers are.

[longbowinfected]

Hi Graham,
of course you are right.
On reflection a large number of good compounders and recurvers have their collection of trad fun bows and they are quite good.
It just irks me the amount of crap trad shooters cop.
Having said that I do push back pretty hard.
At least it is good to challenge the crap and turn it into a bit of fun.

The best way to get the trad message over is to perform well, in numbers and be seen to have fun.


IMO if you shoot one discipline you can do well in others.
If you can shoot darts, pistols or longarms you are highly likely to be multi skilled.
They are after all the same basic skill sets.
I would say this though the trad guys are markedly friendlier and tend to share more with beginners and competitors overall.
I think you learn a lot more about the art form with barebow.
I would be the first to admit though that I basically have found something to like about every other archer so far.

Kevin

[hue]

hi Hardgainer

to my knowledge, no one in the last 20 years has made a claim on archery insurance, but what insurance do trad archers who don't have AV/AA coverage have, i'm a 3 finger under shooter, and i don't wish to shoot med.

regards Hue

[Len]

Is joining an archery club the only way to become an AA ?member

[hue]

hi Len

do you have Peter Bennets phone number? he can answer that question

regards Hue