POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

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What should be classed as a 'trad' bow in trad events?

Metal Riser - ILF limbs
9
24%
Wooden Riser - ILF limbs
1
3%
Any Riser - NO ILF
1
3%
Wooden Riser - NO ILF
2
5%
Takedowns OK - NO ILF
3
8%
One piece recurves/longbows ONLY - NO takedowns
0
No votes
D/R and flatlaid longbows/selfbows ONLY
1
3%
Flat laid longbows/selfbows ONLY
2
5%
Check shoot flyer for eligibility - Nothing needs to change.
18
49%
 
Total votes: 37

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#31 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:06 am

Advantage??????? Fair dinkum, how many go to a trad shoot to win? That for me sums it up, a whole debate and bend to your wants and whims for a notch. Fun, fun and if ya hit rubber it's all good.

Lets just ditch the scores and do a biggest clown wins, I suspect the debate would die in the @&$ at about that point.
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

longbow steve
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#32 Post by longbow steve » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:12 pm

I personally dont want to see a "Modern" hoyt etc alloy riser at a trad shoot but would be willing to accept ILF on a timber riser. Would that be a workable compromise for all? Steve

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Ronster
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#33 Post by Ronster » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:35 pm

Ronster ... what don't you like about ILF bows and how do you see them as an advantage ?
Hi Wishsong, I have nothing against any bow of any kind. Read my first post!, Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions you will see that, I myself have a Trad wood riser with ILF limbs (Tradtech Galaxy)that I was going to take to Gympie to shoot, because my usual bow's riser had delaminated.
Anyway read the post! If this is not clear enough then I dont know what else to say!. Club Organisers put the Trad events on and state what rules apply on their flyers. If You need to shoot other than what they require, Dont Go. They are TRAD events not open events.

I shoot Trad gear at Trad events and Modern recurve and Trad recurves for ABA and 3D. I have a W&W Winact Riser with W&W pro accent ILF limbs using, multiple mechanical rests at different times and a Shibuya DX plunger button, shooting Carbon arrows. My Winact recurve is my bow of choice and most used. The Samick squall is for trad shoots.
I also have a Trad tech Galaxy with Kaya Tropics ILF Limbs shooting both carbon and wood arrows off the shelf, and a Samick Squall TD Trad bow maple and glass bolt on limbs that I shoot totally Trad.
I am not biased in any way other than Trad is Trad, ABA is ABA IFAA is IFAA etc You shoot in their events, you follow their rules. (You have to have Rules)
Just let it go and as Bent stick says Have fun fun fun, enjoy it for what it is!

I have two other comments to make and they are:- If the rules change for whatever reason, I will be happy to abide by them as now. And I am done, no more on this one from me!

Ronster
Last edited by Ronster on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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GrahameA
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility' - Off Topic

#34 Post by GrahameA » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:18 am

Hi Nev

For info only.
kerrille wrote:... there are other photos in the book ''arrow storm'',with english archers having longbows with reflexed tips.
If you have a look at "The Weapons that Made Britain" (with Mike Loades) episode on Longbows Chris Boyton builds him a English Longbow with recurved tips. The work of Alissio Cenni goes a long way to proving that Italians in the medieval period were recurving their tips. The images of the period always suggested to me that some bows were recurved and the answer generally is that "theyare the horn nocks". I have always found it strange that artists could accurately depict the English bows with the difference between sapwood and heartwood clearly shown but "apparently" had difficulties in showing nocks.

Remember there are no bows from the Medieval Period unfortunately so all we have are illustrations. The Mary Rose bows are Tudor and it was the salvaging of the "Mary Rose" that suddenly enabled people to see bows of that era (which are probably not that different from the bows of a few years earlier). Note the current form of the "English Longbow" is driven by "Rules"/opinions that are more Victorian than Medieval.

Have a look at the video - and this link is to an excerpt from the episode so you don't have to download a heap of stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-jsvBt2HI0
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

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Gene-o
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#35 Post by Gene-o » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:52 am

This topic comes up all the time... Trad events for me is time to catch up with some great people and watch our arrows fly... not always where we would like them, we shoot, we party and we laugh, dont get any better than that, and thats where great friendships are forged. Just my two cents worth. Geneo :wink:

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#36 Post by Bent Stick » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:05 pm

I'm with you Gene-o catch up soon for some flinging mate
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#37 Post by kimall » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:27 pm

Gene-o wrote:This topic comes up all the time... Trad events for me is time to catch up with some great people and watch our arrows fly... not always where we would like them, we shoot, we party and we laugh, dont get any better than that, and thats where great friendships are forged. Just my two cents worth. Geneo :wink:
So does it matter what arrows we shoot.:)
Cheers KIM

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#38 Post by Bent Stick » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:59 pm

I keep saying it and the brigade just keep nagging; just start your own open shoot. If your not prepared to move said bum and sort it, why would anyone else fix what isn't broken.
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Gene-o
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#39 Post by Gene-o » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:51 pm

Hey Kim, hows it goin mate?
I would like to see the Trad shoots stay with wooden arrows, but at the end of the day wood, carbon or alloy... wont make someone a better shot, that comes down to practice. IMHO.

Geneo :wink:

longbowinfected
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#40 Post by longbowinfected » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:35 pm

folk go where they want to and shoot what they want. There are only a couple who win gongs, most go just for the heck of it.
Works for me the way it is. The last thing we need is extra differentiation or extra divisions. Do not fix what is not broke.
The survey is fatally flawed as the no change is not possible nor multiple selections.

The thing I love about the trad shoots I go to in NSW is that no matter which type of longbow or selfbow you want to shoot, no matter which association you come from the rules are fair to most and accept most.

ILF is a thin edge of division. AA / WA are prepared to accept ILF for longbow......totally changes things and allows longbowers to tune their bows which is quite a change and unnecessary.

Personally there should be wooden limbs, wooden risers and wooden arrows.
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

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toby
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#41 Post by toby » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:23 pm

Just because it's not broke doesn't meen it can't be improved. An Ilf bow doesn't shoot any better than any other properly tillered & tuned recurve or long bow. Have half you guys commenting on Ilf ever even shot one? The truth be known the only advantage is the ability to tune a different brand Ilf limb to a riser that's it period. Any well built custom bow would shoot as good or better than most Ilf bows.
So advantage? There is none. I agree with gene-o about the arrows, The guys that spend alot of time practicing will shoot good no matter what they shoot, so long as they are shooting well built arrows of any material. As far as the poll goes, like it or not it does prove one thing, based on percentages there is a good chunk of people that think maybe some fine tuning is needed going into the future .
Lyonel

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#42 Post by Nephew » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:42 am

Roadie wrote: If you don't Like the Rules & Regulations, DON'T Come, Stay Home.
Hence you never see me at club shoots. I'm not much of a "Joiner" and I don't like following other peoples rules. Bit of a lone wolf, really.
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#43 Post by GrahameA » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:30 am

Morning All
toby wrote:... As far as the poll goes, like it or not it does prove one thing, ...
IMHO The only thing such a poll highlites is with 20 replies out of 1800 odd members less than 1% wanted to reply! I would suggest it is a non issue.

Out those that did reply 13 of the 20, that is 65%, do not want a change or do not want ILF.
Bent Stick wrote:I keep saying it and the brigade just keep nagging; just start your own open shoot. If your not prepared to move said bum and sort it, why would anyone else fix what isn't broken.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#44 Post by Bent Stick » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:41 am

I don't see a tuning issue I see whinging; and a group that needs to get off their bums and either go to an open tournament or a 3DAAA tournament. The line is defined for those shoots and they are called trad shoots not bitsa shoots.

Instead of making nieve statements about yokels who haven't shot anything else " embarrass yourself and ask around sometime" get off your whinging bone idle %#}ss and get the bells and whistle shoot you want up and going.

People help those that help themselves, if your not prepared to get one up and going then it was never meant to be anything more than whinging.ta

Or is it that it just more convenient to whinge a lot let others put the effort in to make activities suit you? You want it? Seriously? Or hands up if your a blouse gets in the way of following through?!

You want it, make it. It takes more effort than a post but it'll be worth it if you want it.
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#45 Post by GrahameA » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:52 am

Bent Stick wrote:I don't see a tuning issue I see whinging .....

Yep! That says it all.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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perry
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#46 Post by perry » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:08 am

Roadie wrote:This is CRAP, Why do we have to change anything.
To me it's very Simple, If you don't Like the Rules & Regulations, DON'T Come, Stay Home.
Sue, Littlejohn, Wolf care to share some of my Home made Pear Cider. Cheers Roadie.
Grant the statement I am about to make will likely make me somewhat of a outcast and is off topic of the thread but I gotta answer your challenge. I am feeling more and more discontented within the Trad Archery Scene, there is much of it that is hypocrital where some modern technology's are embraced and other technology is convieniently disregarded.

Another problem - I feel that people today are adverse to being challenged with longer shots and prefer to kid themselves at shorter distances. I understand many do not have the time or opportunities to practice regularly [ myself included ] so I get the inclination to stay within ones comfort zone. This 30 yard max idea is in my opinion is creating a generation of less skillful Archers.

Many of these same people that complain loadly about a Trad Coarse being "too long" also sit with me around a Camp Fire and proclaim loudly how they love to see an Arrow Fly - they could see it fly longer if the stopped complaining about longer shots. Everyone loved the Clout shot at Barambah last year, I understand many clubs don't have the room for a Clout Shot but surely a few 50 , 60 or 70 Yards shots incorporated into a Coarse should be embraced as a challenge and not an affront

I obviously have a different idea of what Traditional Archery is, it can not be pidgeon holed, just too diverse, ever evolving and Challenging. There is 10's of thousands of years of History and equipment development in Traditional Archery, many here are trying to say this development has ceased with this line in the sand argument. I wonder if the real issue is the pace of change ????

Maybe I should stay home but I enjoy your and the other Folks company and shooting my Bow, passing on my knowledge and experience and while I have something to offer will continue to attend

I will see you down at Mildura

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#47 Post by longbowinfected » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:31 am

Perry, at which point do you then accept 50 year old or 40 year old compounds? To modern compounders those old beauties are traditional. By your own point that some people do not have the time is probably the reason along with safety / better value or increased longevity of ownership and operation of equipment probably is the basis of why plastic nocks, fibreglass, modern strings are allowed. If everything had to be the same as Grandad's I suspect there would not be many sitting around the campfire at night.

Trad the way it is now fills a niche. If you want to shoot other bows there are places to do that where such equipment are seen in greater numbers. Having said that the number of open recurvers I see is very small compared to open compound.

It is what it is. Lots of people agreed to it on here. That was really only a few years ago. The mainstream organisations are rule bound and keep changing them which is not great. Archery Australia has a huge number of judges. The Trad scene has none and the rules are on one piece of paper whereas World Archery Rules are the size of a bible. Major independent shoots in NSW work really well with the simple rules, large numbers turn up and the shoots are growing/very successful. I think more so than organised association events where nearly everyone gets a medal.
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#48 Post by Bent Stick » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:44 am

I think you hit the nail on the head there longbowinfected it is a niche that fits well now. It's not a one size fits all, that's what club shoots and open tournaments are for.

The shoots are put on as is for this niche and most also do other shoots catering for other niches as well. We have the freedom of choice, choose to be included, or choose to attend another shoot, choose to put the effort in and make a shoot of your choosing, which many of us do by the way.

The shoots are what they are and the clubs and individuals put a lot of effort in to put them on for us, I appreciate them.

When I feel like dusting off the wheelie bow or another from my bow Ho stowage it's at another venue, I have a preference for the trad shoots and have a blast with a great bunch of people. It fits the niche and the people if you want another venue, less talking and more doing, don't @&$$ in my pocket and moan, get out there and just do it.

Who's going to say no to another shoot? Anybody?

You either chose to include yourself and enjoy the trad shoots for what they are, somebody else's effort for your gain. Choose not to. Choose to lead by example and make one you want, like long said though where do you draw your line? Or just another open shoot with different activities? If you want it make it so, your own effort for your own gain.
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perry
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#49 Post by perry » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Longbowinfected, I am continually surprised by this Compound fixation, why do so many make this comment even in Jest - they are a device relying on mechanical advantage due to eccentrics or Cams as well as the limbs to propel the Arrow, they are not and never will be a Traditional Bow which rely on the energy generated by the Bows Limbs.

In regards to Grandads equipment, the advantages of Modern equipment is one of the reasons why Archery is growing today and partly why I can not understand why Trad Archery Cherry Picks Technological developments in Traditional Bows.

I was dead set ignorrant about ILF. I put many of my personnel beliefs aside and compromised on the rest in the interests of adopting what the majority desired with these Trad Rules. I also asked myself who am I to sit here and make a contribution to a set of Rules / Definitions about things I don't fully understand or have any experience with

I have since made a point to learn about ILF, Carbon Arrows and the like. How many other People who oppose ILF as I once did even know how to adjust an ILF Limb, understand the abreviation or get that they don't shoot any better than any other Bow of similar design, how many People make statements bathing in the same lack of understanding as I once did.

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#50 Post by toby » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:20 am

Morning Bent stick
Just because a group of people have a differnt opinion to yours on Ilf or what is or isn't Trad does not make them "Whingers" & doesn't give you the right to start telling people to " get off your whinging bone idle %#}ss as you put it. I also don't recall calling anyone a "Yokel" I simply stated as Perry also did that some people make comments on things they have had no experience with.
Lyonel

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#51 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:42 am

Your welcome to take offence at any time. No change here.
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#52 Post by GrahameA » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:45 am

Hi Perry and Kevin.

If I want to shoot longer distances it is simply a matter of going to the range and doing it. If I want to shoot Clout it is the same story. If I want to shoot such competitively all I need do is enter and turn up.

As far as Compounds and Trad go - spent a bit of time thinking through some of the issues. It will be a nice challenge for someone rlse to put together a set of rules for "Trad Compound".
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#53 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:58 am

If you want it build it.

"Build it and they will come"

Not prepared to put the effort in and make it? = whinging
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#54 Post by scuzz » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:14 am

Bent Stick wrote:Advantage??????? Fair dinkum, how many go to a trad shoot to win? That for me sums it up, a whole debate and bend to your wants and whims for a notch. Fun, fun and if ya hit rubber it's all good.

Lets just ditch the scores and do a biggest clown wins, I suspect the debate would die in the @&$ at about that point.
Ok, this pretty much says that it shouldnt matter if ILF was shot.
Bent Stick wrote:I keep saying it and the brigade just keep nagging; just start your own open shoot. If your not prepared to move said bum and sort it, why would anyone else fix what isn't broken.
Im not having a go at you, but i seem to pick up on some contradiction between these two comments. Considering it doesn't matter about scoring, i dont see why its such a big problem to have the ILF system.

Are takedows generally allowed at TRAD shoots?? If so, why are ILF treated so different? Is it the adjustment? Surely if theres a reason that this system has been exempt, then there is no harm in stating the reason.

'Dont fix what isnt broken' is a silly quote IMO. By that logic, we would still be driving cars that needed to be started by hand, and mowing lawns with mowers without motors to help propel the blades. These older models are not 'broken', there simply out dated, and are now re-designed to be far more efficient.

JMO
Scuzz

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#55 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:50 am

You blokes are just missing the point and continuing a zealous crusade to evolve the current trad shoots into something else.

Moving the benchmark for each flavour periodically will eventually end up just another open shoot.

Root cause of your angst you want a new group to be eligible, either )$& into the wind and be annoying or just do it and I think that's the bit you lot find disturbing you want others to do it for you.

Get motivated get off your bum put some effort in and organise what you want.

The analogy in engineering evolution was bone. I are an engineer consult all iver the world in asset management, design and mauntenance, i' actually good at it; and not fixing what isn't broken is correct. This form fit and function for the benchmark works you want to move the benchmark.

Stop whinging and organise one
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#56 Post by wishsong » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Bent Stick

I do organize Trad Shoots , I sponsor them and will continue to do so .

But
it would appear that our "whingeing" , Zealous Crusade and nagging is only matched by the amount of whining posts you have made on the subject .

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#57 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:22 pm

Then I expect we can see a shoot organised that will keep you happy then, your welcome to be offended all you like gents you can say what you like I'm laughing at you not with you.

It's a useless debate put your money where your mouth is and run one instead of whining about changing a datum.

You fessed up now make it a reality and lead the charge.
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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Ronster
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#58 Post by Ronster » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:16 pm

Hi all, I was'nt going comment again, but could not help it!
Bent Stick I have given up on these guy's in frustration! In my posts I have shown that I am a Target Recurve Bow archer and the bow I use most is an Olympic style Recurve ILF limbs shooting off a Hoyt super rest and a Shibuya Plunger. I shoot it in Modern recurve devisions. I shoot the Trad Bow (Samick Squall TD Recurve for Trad shoots) You will not move these guys, they are not interested in you or I or the Archers that choose to follow current rules.
As you say, let them form their own club and put on the event with their own rules and wait to see how many other archers want to change or alter their rules.
This topic is a circle that will rotate forever.
My Humble and honest opinion, Dont feed their posts! No offence ment for anyone, but enough is enough!

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Bent Stick
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#59 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:22 pm

Well put Ronster and your right it keeps going round and round over and over.

again and again and again
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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perry
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Re: POLL - Trad 'Eligibility'.

#60 Post by perry » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:34 pm

Wow, what is with the Attitude Folks, I let some slide earlier but not now, why so rude - if it was me being as Rude as you have been Jason I would have had posts deleted. Fair go Mate what are you afraid of, why so defensive ???

Everyone needs to settle down !!!!

Tradition is not static, it evolves with each sucessive generations contributions. Discussions such as this will continue because Traditional Archery is not static and you must always keep an eye on the Future and a Foot firmly planted in the Past

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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