Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

[littlejohn59]

LOL littlejohn you know deep down I love my longbow

You talk with fork tongue. Somehow you technically equate carbon/aluminium with wood. Furthermore you dribble something about liking longbow. You one mad scientist!

[Trad Bound]

Now little John that's a bit rough on the pink professor. But true

[toby]

Hi Greybeard
Where did those Traditional Shoot Rules Come from? I can't see where anybody put there name to them. What organisation are they from?

[perry]

I thought it would be a good idea if the Trad Scene in Australia had uniform Rules and definitions so that when you traveled to different states and Shoots you knew what to expect. Greybeard, Grahame Amy and I worked with a lot of other people on this Forum in several threads and talked to many of them at Trad Shoots and put a Concenses to Paper. They seem to work quite well at the Shoots that adopted them. They are open to fine tuning and a few minor Changes have been made over the Years. The idea being they adapt as Traditional Archery changes.

I was impressed that ABA had a good look at the Rules / Definitions and used some of them nearly word for word when they made new divisions. It shows that those Rules / Definitions reflect the Archers well in Australian Traditional Archery

regards Jacko

[greybeard]

Hi Toby,

They were formulated by trad shooters and not a governing body.

Daryl.

[toby]

So they are not official rules for any particular shoot, more a Guide for individual clubs to adapt & alter to suit the type of Traditional Shoot that individual clubs are trying to promote?

[GrahameA]

Morning.

So they are not official rules for any particular shoot, more a Guide for individual clubs to adapt & alter to suit the type of Traditional Shoot that individual clubs are trying to promote?

"Yes" and "No".

Where is the event an under what rules it is being shot?

As an example there is nothing to stop you using the US Archery rules.
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Reso ... Rules.aspx

Now the issue(s) you need to resolve is what sort of attendance and how happy people will be shooting with your rules.

(Feel free to try and set-up a National Trad Association and get a set of rules adopted. Or try and get the big 3 Associations to agree to a common set of rules. etc.

It would be much easier to master the art of herding cats.)

[Roadie]

Ay, now there is a thought. Cheers Roadie.

[hotcam]

Well how about trad shoots put a summary of their rules on their advertisements?
It would really help me as a person newly returned to the sport, who owns only carbon arrows and no flu-flus.

eg. choose one of

Arrows: carbon or aly permitted / carbon or aly permitted but no prize / wood arrows only

Flu-flus with rubber blunts requires / flu-flus with field tips required / flu-flus not required

Bows: no wheels / no modern materials / wood bows only / selfbows

or something like that?

[GrahameA]

Afternoon

Well how about trad shoots put a summary of their rules on their advertisements?
It would really help me as a person newly returned to the sport, who owns only carbon arrows and no flu-flus.

eg. choose one of

Arrows: carbon or aly permitted / carbon or aly permitted but no prize / wood arrows only

Flu-flus with rubber blunts requires / flu-flus with field tips required / flu-flus not required

Bows: no wheels / no modern materials / wood bows only / selfbows

or something like that?

Or you could drop the particular shoot a phone call or an email. As well perhaps you could ask them at the same if would mind placing that information on their next flyer.

[little arrows]

Hi Hotcam,

When you read the flyers they all mentions bow types and most say timber or wood arrows only with feather. Flu flu's are not required at some of the shoots, however most trad archers once they start going to all the shoots realise a set of their own, would be good. Everything in Qld is field points, and as Grahame said, if you were to make contact with the shoot organisers they will be able to answer your questions, or put you on to someone who can.
Ok so my Trad shoot calender for 2013 give no info except dates for the shoot, which I state. This is for those who need to plan holidays etc, weekends off, and then flyers are added later.
There is always the previous years to look at too, which would give you an idea.

Tobi,
All the trad shoots are santioned with the association of the club holding the shoot as a special event. You can be independant, AA, ABA or 3DAAA to shoot any of the Trad events. (added with 2nd edit) The clubs that hold the shoots also have all the relevant forms and paperwork required for people to complete for insurance purposes who are not members of the organisations.

Get yourselves to trad shoot and enjoy the comradery.

cheers
sue

(added with edit) - ps. Guys it doesn't help when we do not know where you reside, so we aren't able to point you in the right direction.

[toby]

What Trad Shoots don't allow Ilf bows?

[littlejohn59]

why oh why oh why oh why oh why i ask myself?

Talking to myself i am.

I see the word traditional and i think to myself .......mmmmm what is old ,what is traditional about Longbows/Recurves.

Wow!!!!

Must be well before my time......possibly centuries......
Now i am thinking ......along time ago were they shooting wood or steel out of longbows/recurves.?Steel was so heavy centuries ago! So I cant see too many longbows/recurves shooting steel.

So now i go and look up stuff about robin hood, Agincourt, william the Conqueror.
Now i am thinking Traditional. The word traditional? mmmmmm...... something that you pass down or follow..
WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A revelation..... the common theme wood.

So now i am thinking to myself. Why all the questions about steel and metal at Trad shoots and what can i shoot with.

mmmm............ I know HUMANS. THE HUMAN FACTOR. Of course. Silly old me.
Winning, pushing the boundaries. non compliance,too many rules,not enough rules , how can I bend the rules to suit me, will anybody notice and on it goes.

Thinking to myself. Ok littlejohn off to the range you go today and have some more fun.

Is having fun TRADITIONAL? ......mmm possibly

[Roadie]

Luv Ya thinking littlejohn, it's always a pleasure to shoot with Like minded Folk. Cheers Roadie.

[hotcam]

Yes some fliers do have information which is great. Just not all, I would have thought it a common enough
question that it is worthy of being on a flyer instead of the organiser of the event getting 50 phone calls?
Just my opinion. Seems like many shooters have been in the scene for a long time and know different shoot requirements
by heart or word of mouth. That's fine if you've been in the scene for 20 years, just doesn't help a newbie, that's all.
And what sport doesn't need to attract the occasional newbie now and then?

It's not about winning or bending the rules, it's about wanting to participate and have fun without having to
go and hand make a wood bow with vine string and wood arrows with flint tips, just to be sure of being eligible to enter.
I with my glass-backed wood recurve and feathered wood-look carbon arrows, am always happy to participate in a different class/category
to those with longbows, woods, selfbows, etc. Even though many or most of those guys can still shoot that stuff better than I can shoot mine.

[toby]

Hi Little John
I Read your last post & you raised one good question, what is Traditional in archery? (Traditions can persist and evolve for thousands of years—the word "tradition" itself derives from the Latin tradere or traderer literally meaning to transmit, to hand over, to give for safekeeping.)
This was a piece I took from Wikepedia, I often think that we forget that traditions do keep evolving & never really stay the same. You mentioned Agincort,Robin Hood & William the conqueror I don't recall them using Fibreglass,Phenolic,Epoxy Glues,Fast Flight Strings or Carbon Fibre so I guess it's safe to say that Traditional archery has evolved from these times.You also mentioned shooting steel out of wood bows & I must admit that I have never heard of this either, But I do know that metal has been used in the construction of Bows for centuries. It always fascinates me how alot of people today only consider things to be Traditional in archery from about the 1940's through to about the 1980's. Prior to that they seem to be in the Primative class or Post that they become Modern, Why is this so?
I also noticed in the proposed rules that Ilf were not allowed because of the adjustment for poundage or tiller & also arrow rests that could be adjusted were not allowed, I found this idea amusing as I have seen people adjusting there Brace heights & also there tied on nocking poins mid round. If this is a concern than why not ban the adjustment of ALL BOWS during a round & not just ban the Bow itself.
The human factor, mmm now there's an interesting one,I must admit we are very complex creatres . So much so that I have trouble working myself out let alone anyone else.I think I must be crazy why else would I spend money travelling to Traditioinal Archery Shoots only to not hand score cards in, not shoot the events that I don't like even though they score,not give two hoots about winning or what anyone else is shooting.Or it could be that I just like the company of like minded people, remember not everyone that goes to these shoots is there to win there catergory, some like myself are there to just have fun,socialise & shoot my different bows in an enviroment that is safe & suitable.

Thanks

[kerrille]

what is traditional ?????.........everything .......

http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/ar ... elbow.html


.........nev.....

[Kingsley]

Hi all these trad shoots should just mean all bows shot with fingers and wood arrows only.If you have to have two classes how about self bows in one division and all composite bows meaning glass lam in the other.To me trad shoots should mean a together of people shooting non wheel bows.

Kingsley.

[Roadie]

Trad Shoot.
Food, Booze, Comrades in Arms, Booze, Dancing Girls, Having a Grouse time, Food, Oh by the way, if we have time we Sling a Few Arrows. And did I mention, Food,Drinks Dancing Girls Etc. Cheers All. Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

... If you have to have two classes how about self bows in one division and all composite bows meaning glass lam in the other. ....

So bi-laminate timber longbows (a several thousand year old design) shoot against modern fibreglass composite recurves. (Or are they just not allowed?)

[little arrows]

Hey littlejohn......................... is 4 panadol too many ?????

Drink anyone !!!!

cheers
sue

[Roadie]

Yep Thanks Sue, 2 ice cubes and 2 fingers. Cheers Roadie.

[littlejohn59]

Hey littlejohn......................... is 4 panadol too many ?????

Drink anyone !!!!

cheers
sue

mmmmmmmm................just thinking aloud........Traditionally one doesn't take 4 panadol at once, 2 would be the norm for an adult.

However in my case 4 with a bundy would be just right.

just thinking aloud.....once again,,,,,,Anyone who wants to drink with roadie, Little arrows and me are more than welcome so long as they bring their panadol.

[greybeard]

Hi Little John
I Read your last post & you raised one good question, what is Traditional in archery? (Traditions can persist and evolve for thousands of years—the word "tradition" itself derives from the Latin tradere or traderer literally meaning to transmit, to hand over, to give for safekeeping.)
This was a piece I took from Wikepedia, I often think that we forget that traditions do keep evolving & never really stay the same.
Thanks

Toby,

A quick search on the internet found the following regarding ILF limb fittings.

“Hoyt in 1983, United States Patent 4494521 filed in that year explains all.”

Regarding compound bows;

“Holless Wilbur Allen experimented with a number of designs to eventually apply for a patent on June 23, 1966, and U.S. Patent 3,486,495 was granted to him in December 1969.

With the help of bow maker Tom Jennings, he became the first manufacturer of compound bows.”

Compound bows predate the ILF system by several years so to follow your reasoning would suggest including compound bows.

AA, ABA, 3DAAA and FITA appear to cater for ILF bows.

I am sure that trad shoot organizers would allow you to shoot your bow but you may not be eligible for a shiny trinket at the end of the shoot.

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Hi All.

A quick search on the internet found the following regarding ILF limb fittings.

“Hoyt in 1983, United States Patent 4494521 filed in that year explains all.”

I am not certain if the GM was the first Hoyt with ILF fittings however my best educated guess is that it was. Gold Medalist TD4 1983 1982 designed by Mike Quartino and Earl Hoyt Hoyt. the company, is currently a different style of limbe fittings (paralever).

Note: there is a range of limb fittings that are of a "bayonet style" fitting and they are not interchangeable. They are also several "hardlock type" takedown systems which may not not be interchangeable

[toby]

Hi Daryl, I have no interests in shiny trinkets never have & never will & if you had of read my post correctly you would have seen that, I also have other bows I could shoot if all I wanted to do was win. You see I don't care what other people are shooting I honestly don't think it's any of my business, for me it's not about winning it's about participation. I am also well aware of how long compound bows have been around for ( I have owned about a dozen from when I was 8 until about 7 years ago & I am now 41) & to say that my reasoning would suggest they should be aloud is crazy. But to say that Ilf bows are not part of the Tradional Archery scene is just as crazy. Last time I looked they didn't have any cams or pulleys & only one string so no let off advantage. So if shot without a sight & a finger release tell me what is different from any other recurve or hybrid bow other than people who want to win their shiny trinkets are scared of getting beaten by someone shooting one. Please don't say the tiller adjustment as any one that was serious about winning would have there bow well & truly set up before they started shooting a round & wouldn't fiddle with it once set.If you are then concerned about poundage adjustment this is minimal at best if you still want to keep your bow tuned correctly. The last time I shot a Traditional shoot I was shooting about 62lb & my arrows were about 640grains, shooting against guys shooting 40 & 45lb bows with little light weight 5/16 shafts, you would hardly say this is a level playing field either but the truth is I don't care whether they beat me or not cause I'm out there having fun with my daughter. Maybe we should stop living in the past & look to the future & see what we can do to include more people in our sport.

Maybe

1/ Primative Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules

2/ Londbow Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules except must be wooden riser

3/ Recurve Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules except must be wooden riser

4/ Modern Traditional Division - Any metal or wood risered bow & the use of any arrow material with 12" of feathers be allowed.But no sights,stabilisers or anything the like.

Just a thought.

[Roadie]

Afternoon Ian, Getting back to your original Question. I am organising a Trad Shoot here in Mildura in late August /Sept 2013 To compete, the Divisions are Bare bow Recurve, Longbow and Historic (Self Bow, Primitive), and of late a lot off people are turning to the Asiatic Bow (Horse Bow), who was quite often put in with Recurve or Primitive Division if there was only one or two, so if enough people turn up using that Bow at my shoot, I will form another Division for them.
All I ask is you use wooden arrows and Feathers, self nock (Horn Inserts) I will allow. Hope this clears the Muddy waters for you. Come be preparred to Party and have a great time, as well as shoot a few arrows. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All.

....
1/ Primative Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules

2/ Londbow Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules except must be wooden riser

3/ Recurve Traditional Division - As per Daryl's rules except must be wooden riser

4/ Modern Traditional Division - Any metal or wood risered bow & the use of any arrow material with 12" of feathers be allowed.But no sights,stabilisers or anything the like.

So it is proposed by one person that the Rules be changed.

May I suggest that this is not going to happen with the current approach. From my viewpoint the rules are not perfect, a number of issues exist however they do work and many people shoot at a number of events without any major issues.

# So what is wrong withe current rules and what issues do they cause?
# How many people does it effect and how many requests/complaints to change the rules have there been?
# What will be the effects of these changes?
# Is there a consensus of opinion that agree withe the proposed changes?
# Do Clubs want another Division withe the resulting implications regarding Trophies/Medals and the dilution of the current Divisions?

Specifically:

4/ Modern Traditional Division - Any metal or wood risered bow & the use of any arrow material with 12" of feathers be allowed. But no sights,stabilisers or anything the like.

# Why 12" of feathers? (the "Rules"are being re-written with a new division so everything is up for grabs,)

# Why feathers and not plastic vanes? (It states "Modern Traditional.)

# Are riser allowed to have weights attached to them. They are not stabilisers

# It states

.... Any metal or wood risered bow ....

So does that mean I cannot use a Carbon Fibre riser bow or a Plastic Riser bow and on what basis ... but I can use a Compound Bow for that matter.

This is just the start of clarifications needed.

[Roadie]

OK, Why not Cross Bows, they are Traditional, Genonesse Bowmen, Mercennaries for the French, at Pointiers, Creccy. King Richard 1st was killed by a crossbow Bolt. Crossbow bolt was made of steel ,and the flights were of Leather, according to some reliable info I have seen & read. Cheers Roadie.

[little arrows]

well while we are going why don't we just change the rules to suit every individual.
I'm shorter in statue so why can't I shoot closer, because my draw is only 22" and sometimes I can't see the target, people with bung knees and backs, why should they have to bend and kneel. People that are taller should be further away, 'cause their draws are longer.

Hey why don't we just all walk along the track and play pick-a-spot - no that would be too much fun.

as quoted from your post "The last time I shot a Traditional shoot I was shooting about 62lb & my arrows were about 640grains, shooting against guys shooting 40 & 45lb bows with little light weight 5/16 shafts, you would hardly say this is a level playing field either but the truth is I don't care whether they beat me or not cause I'm out there having fun with my daughter. Maybe we should stop living in the past & look to the future & see what we can do to include more people in our sport."

I do not see why you are comparing yourself to a person shooting a lighter poundage bow - so what, that is YOUR choice, and THEIRS, it will NEVER be an absolute level playing fleld, and we don't need any more bumps in it.
The better ARCHER is alway going to win on the day regards of their bow weight and timber/bamboo arrow diameter, not before the tournament, only at the end of it.

So "toby" can you see where this is all going - Rules are there as they are, we play by them. It is my opinion, with all our foibles, complaints and ideas will never exactly see eye to eye, however general consus and numbers at shoot proves something must be pretty right. Some archers do take there shooting very seriously, yes, so! We are all there for the fun of it.

cheers
sue