Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

[toby]

I appoligise Greybeard,GraemeA,Roadie,Little John & Little Arrows if I have hurt your feelings. I guess we will just have to disagree on what we consider is traditional without haveing to exagerate & go over the top anymore by any of us myself included.I'm not asking for a rule change because I don't need one I have several Bows & a few dozen beautifully made custom Douglar Fir Arrows I can Shoot at any traditional shoot with no problem.But I do feel sorry for people just starting out that don't. But can someone please explain to me how the bows in these pictures are not traditional. They are not my bows but are all Ilf.

[littlejohn59]

FOR THE FEW THAT WANT TO SHOOT TRAD WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN LONGBOWS AND RECURVES WITH WOOD ARROWS ACCEPT THE WAY WE SHOOT AT OUR EVENTS.

MOST OF US SHOOT A LITTLE OF EVERYTHING THROUGHOUT THE YEAR. HOWEVER WHEN IT COMES TO TRAD THIS IS WHAT WE DO. WE GO FIND SOME WOODIES

ALTERNATIVELY THERE IS AUSTRALIAN ARCHERY, AUSTRALIAN BOW HUNTERS ASSOCIATION OR 3DAA ARCHERY.

IN CASE YOU ARE UNAWARES THIS IS A TRAD SITE.

[toby]

Sorry Little John I always thought they were Trad bows sorry I was Wrong.

[Roadie]

All Cool here Toby no offence taken. The bows you have pictured, don't look right to me, I can't give you a correct answer, they just don't right. But then again I only shoot ELB's, and of the knuckle Cheers Roadie.

[hotcam]

Dear Littlejohn, are you the bow police?

If you feel so threatened by someone with arrows you don't like, shooting in a different category to you or not even scoring,
then I suggest LOOK at yourself! You're reading this "Trad Site" on a computer device that has
at least 1000 times more transistor power than the computers which took man to the moon in 1969!
You should be reading it written on parchment by candlelight, while drinking mead from a leather cup.

So if a new person wants to join in the fun, support your sport, add money to your club, and be your friend,
do you really think it is right to tell them to f*** off, just because they didn't know to buy a certain type of arrow before they came?
Sure, score them differently, by all means, but if you don't welcome them, your "trad" sport will die and be forgotten,
just like the methods used in the All-Egypt Pyramid Building Competitions of 2700-0600 BC.

Get some perspective, and remember that it is about fun. It's not about million dollar sponsorships, saving your
kid's life like William Tell, or even status in society. It's only about FUN, and that's all.
Anyone outside archery thinks we (including wheelie shooters) are ALL mad throwbacks to the medieval.

Oh, and a free tip: quit typing your replies ALL IN CAPITALS; it is deemed shouting. Plus, it's annoying.

[Kingsley]

A trad bow is a bow without wheels or in other words a string attatched to each end pulled back with fingers only.
Kingsley

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

I appoligise .....

But can someone please explain to me how the bows in these pictures are not traditional.

There is no need to apologise - you asked the question and got a reply. It is no more or less than that.

You may be at a disadvantage in that some of us have survived the rigours of "vigorous" debate of a few years.

If you want an example try putting forward the case for Deflex Reflex Longbows with the string wrapping around the the tip or the case for bows having shelves/no shelves being two seperate classes. Or if you want to be radical why recurve bows with non-working tips should have their own division.

As to what you are suggesting do not assume that people are against it. However, what they may need is an argument that can stand against a strong and vigorous argument against it.

Then again in the end you may find simplest approach is to put up a "Prize" for your division at and event, eg :The "Carbon Cup"
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... cup#p98053

.....

Hi Grant.

OK, Why not Cross Bows

Two reasons:

# The Pope said no Crossbows to be used against Christians.

# The various state governments have enacted legislation that make it difficult to shoot them without jumping through a range of legislative "hoops".

[Roadie]

Morning Grahame, The first part about the Pope & Christians, well that didn't work did it, second part, Well I was just trying to Lighten the mood and possibly Stir the Pot a litle
Have a nice Day All. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Grant.

The first part about the Pope & Christians, well that didn't work did it...

Nope,

... Well I was just trying to Lighten the mood ....

Levity...Shock, Horror.

This stuff is not a matter of Life and Death, it is much more important that.

[Ian Turner]

Hi all,
Looks like I have stirred the pot a bit when it comes to my question of what bows qualify for trad shoots and what don't.
What brought me to ask is that I plan on going to Wisemans in March and was wondfering is I was able to compete using recurves and longbows that are in the modern form ie wood risers and fibreglass limbs on my Samick takedown and my Great Plains Bamboo limbed recurve 1 piece and also a Longbow either Samick Verna or Bear Montana.
I have so far managed to sort out wood for my Sammick TD but I am having trouble trying to sort out arrows of the right spine for the Great Plains in 50#.
70# spined arrows don't seem stiff enough as even they create nock left tears in my paper however thats another story.
So I am gathering at the end of the day that there is no set formula for what bows can be used to compete in "Trad Events"
Cheers everyone and good shooting and I hope to see many of the participants of this site at Wisemans.
Cheers
Ian

[Roadie]

Ian, Great,Make yourself known when you get there, I always have a cold beverage or 3, Forget the CRAP, just turn up and Shoot & Party. Thats why I'm coming. Cheers Roadie.

[longbow steve]

I appoligise Greybeard,GraemeA,Roadie,Little John & Little Arrows if I have hurt your feelings. I guess we will just have to disagree on what we consider is traditional without haveing to exagerate & go over the top anymore by any of us myself included.I'm not asking for a rule change because I don't need one I have several Bows & a few dozen beautifully made custom Douglar Fir Arrows I can Shoot at any traditional shoot with no problem.But I do feel sorry for people just starting out that don't. But can someone please explain to me how the bows in these pictures are not traditional. They are not my bows but are all Ilf.

Hi Toby, you would have no problem at any trad shoot with the bows you are using as examples. Cheers Steve

[matt61]

I am going to add my view to the pot that has been well and truely stirred.
What I see at trad shoots is people who are shooting with both recurve and longbows
manufactured using the lastest colour impregnated laminated wood,resin impregnated denim
called Phenolic and fibreglass all glued together using the latest rocket science technology glue and they
are using the latest rocket science technology string material being Fastflight ,D97 or other,but if I turn
up at the same Trad shoot with my bow made using the above mention manufacturing processes but
shooting the latest rocket science material arrow shafts(carbon arrows) I'm not allowed to play.
Matt

[toby]

Hi Steve
What woud your opinion be on these, given they are by the same builder just alloy risers instead of wood & Phenolic.Keep in mind they are using the same limbs that you would use on the wood & phenoic risers.They are also designed so they can be shot off the if you choose.

First photo is a 60" bow.

Second & Third photo's In this case they are the same riser just one picture using recurve limbs & the other using deflex reflex longbow limbs. The recurve is a 56" bow. (Please Ignore Torch mounted to the side of riser )

[longbow steve]

Hi Steve
What woud your opinion be on these, given they are by the same builder just alloy risers instead of wood & Phenolic.Keep in mind they are using the same limbs that you would use on the wood & phenoic risers.They are also designed so they can be shot off the if you choose.

First photo is a 60" bow.

Second & Third photo's In this case they are the same riser just one picture using recurve limbs & the other using deflex reflex longbow limbs. The recurve is a 56" bow.

Toby, I personally wouldn't care so long as you were shooting off the shelf and using timber arrows. As far as I am concerned performance will be the same as the bow I shoot and most other recurves.
I have seen metal risers at trad shoots, I have seen carbon arrows at trad shoots(I have shot carbons at a trad shoot on my way back from a hunting trip and was welcomed) but I didn't score and neither did the metal riser participants. The line has to be drawn somewhere in the guideline rules that have been penned. Cheers Steve

[kerrille]

i dont think you should be allowed to use a bow quiver ,ive never seen them in any robin hood movies...


...nev..

[toby]

I think your right that you do have to draw the line somewhere, I just find it interesting that the only difference between the bows is the metal riser all else is pretty much the same. I was wondering if it was the Ilf mounts or the metal riser that people seem to object to, unfortunately it hasn't become any clearer & if I decided to shoot a similar bow at a shoot I would be more than happy not to hand a score card in as this is what I usually do anyway ( I don't shoot well enough for it to matter )
I think the more important thing is to be able to participate, which from the shoots I have been to I don't think would be a problem.
I have two alloy risered bows that I will set up for hunting this year as think they will be ideally suited to this application.

Ian it sounds like you are starting to get a good collection of bows together the Great Plains especially,The problem you are having with the shaft spine for this bow, What is your point weight & what length shafts are they? Remenber AMO Spine weight is calculated at 26" so if you have a long draw you may have to compensate for it.

[greybeard]

Toby,

I have been around too long to get upset over differing points of view.

The following should answer your question regarding metal risers.

1.3 MODERN RECURVE DIVISION.

• A one piece or takedown bow with fibreglass and /or carbon fibre back, belly or core laminations.
• The bow can be shot off the shelf or from an elevated arrow rest adhered to the sight window.
• Only one nocking point is allowed.
• Adjustable or mechanical arrow rests are not permitted.
• Plunger buttons are not permitted.
• In the case of a bow being cut past 1/8th from centreshot a pad of leather of similar shall be used to bring the bow back to 1/8th from centreshot.
• Recurves with a standard metal riser are allowed. Adjustable riser bows are not permitted. note 2.4

Daryl.

[toby]

Hi Daryl, I did read that in your rules that you posted & I accept that you guys don't want them at your shoots.I was just trying to work out why Ilf weren't allowed?

[Ian Turner]

Hi Lyonal,
I was experimenting tonight again with arrow shafts.
I find that from an aluminium point of view 2315 Eastons with a 145gr point at 30" long shoots great.
Tonite I tried cutting down a 72# shaft I had to 29&1/2" and glued a 100 gr point on it it and it was much closer to cutting a good hole through paper.
I have to do paper tuning as I am restricted to about 5yards distance but I have found this method works well with my other bows and I shot the 2315's on the weekend at the range and they shot well.
I am a member of Nepean Bowhunters and we shoot with the Penrith City Archers at their range where we ahve our 3d set up.
So yes I am shooting arrows around the 30 1/2" length as a preference as this length is a good length for broadheads.
So I am trying to get some shafts 75# and higher to see if they will work.
The trick is getting the high spine weight.
I don't know how the guys shooting the heavy stuff go trying to get woody's.
Cheers
Ian

[little arrows]

Hi Ian,

good to see putting the lighter points on helped those shafts a bit, perhaps you could have changed the point weight then cut them, anyhoo done now.
So I guess they couldn't help you with the heavier spine, so do what you were going to do for Wisemans, and work the other shafts out after. Steve still has some orders to complete, however people who know the turn around time now order a little earlier. He doing the 150# set now.
Anyhoo, see you at wisemans. (added with edit) Actually at Wisemans I might get you to check out Hazards arrows they are 80#ers, probably be too stiff, and well Eions will just be way way way too stiff and heavy, but they look really good.

Hey Toby,
Will we see you and the family at North Albert at Easter, or are you going bush?

cheers
sue

[longbowinfected]

Toby I think part of it all stems from the difference between modern longbow and trad recurves. You would get some advantage out of a stiffer machined riser compared to a timber one but in the main it takes a gun archer to get the most out of that and some of those guys would shoot well at the short distances we shoot at no matter what was in their hands.

The main problem I have with limb bolts or ILF limbs for combinations called longbow is that with ELB or American flatbow is that you tune your arrows to the bow but with changeable bolts/shims you can tune the bow.

I have no problem shooting reflex, flat laid or deflex/reflex modern longbows or flatbows in together same as I do not care if someone is shooting 20 pounds draw more or less than me. Hey at the end of the day we are all doing the same thing and for fun.

As for the modern materials thing, to a large degree a lot of that is orientated towards safety or allowing people to enjoy the use of their kit for longer.

Kevin

[GrahameA]

Morning Toby.

... I just find it interesting that the only difference between the bows is the metal riser all else is pretty much the same. I was wondering if it was the Ilf mounts or the metal riser that people seem to object to, unfortunately it hasn't become any clearer .....

I would say it is extremely clear.

1.3 MODERN RECURVE DIVISION.

• A one piece or takedown bow with fibreglass and /or carbon fibre back, belly or core laminations.
• The bow can be shot off the shelf or from an elevated arrow rest adhered to the sight window.
• Only one nocking point is allowed.
• Adjustable or mechanical arrow rests are not permitted.
• Plunger buttons are not permitted.
• In the case of a bow being cut past 1/8th from centreshot a pad of leather of similar shall be used to bring the bow back to 1/8th from centreshot.
• Recurves with a standard metal riser are allowed. Adjustable riser bows are not permitted. note 2.4

The "Rules" are essentially a Checklist for compliance. So which element do the bows you put forward fail to pass the criteria?

My Black Widow meets the requirements except for the plunger button and centre shot in its present form. So if I decided to shoot it I would need to resolve those issues.

There is no issue with its alloy riser. Similarly I could choose to shoot my KG1, Hoyt T/D, Yamaha YTSL, Nishizawa T/D. I could even use my Warf if I wanted to.

All I need do is ensure that the bow complies with requirements.

So why does your bow fail the criteria and which shoot were you precluded from shooting at and why?

[Outbackdad]

I go
I shoot
I have fun
I go home and get ready for the next shoot!!

Easy

[littlejohn59]

Dear Littlejohn, are you the bow police?

If you feel so threatened by someone with arrows you don't like, shooting in a different category to you or not even scoring,
then I suggest LOOK at yourself! You're reading this "Trad Site" on a computer device that has
at least 1000 times more transistor power than the computers which took man to the moon in 1969!
You should be reading it written on parchment by candlelight, while drinking mead from a leather cup.

So if a new person wants to join in the fun, support your sport, add money to your club, and be your friend,
do you really think it is right to tell them to f*** off, just because they didn't know to buy a certain type of arrow before they came?

THANKYOU!

Like Greybeard, YOUR point of view!

Its sad as a newbie much escaped your observations at the recent Ballarat Trad shoot and the LB100 shoot.

I hope you enjoy future Trad shoots that you attend.

[toby]

Hi Ian, I had a feeling your shafts were over 30" with a fair bit of weight upfront. I'm not sure how the centre shot on your Great Plains is set up but this can make a fair bit of difference to what you can get away with as well. I do have a dozen 85#-90# spine Premium Douglas Fir shafts I might look to sell if your interested. Although I think they might be a bit to heavy unless you keep them long with alot of weight up front.

Hi Graham, two of my bows fail the criteria because they are have Ilf limb pockets ( Adjustable riser bows not permitted )
What type of limb pockets does your warf have? Most these days are Ilf.
I have never been precluded from a shoot with them as I have never taken them to a shoot.

Hi Sue
I am hoping to make the North Albert shoot as it was one of the Qld shoots I missed last year. I have shot some ABA rounds there years ago & I really liked there grounds.

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

What type of limb pockets does your warf have? Most these days are Ilf.[/quote}
None. It has bolts. I made the bow myself on a Darton riser.

... two of my bows fail the criteria because they are have Ilf limb pockets ( Adjustable riser bows not permitted )

So you need to make them non-adjustable.

I have never been precluded from a shoot with them as I have never taken them to a shoot.

You may be jumping the gun a bit. Why not take your bow to an event and ask the question to the people there and get a ruling. IMHO You may find issues with centreshot and the Berger Button (if fitted) may be more of an issue. All of these can be resolved with a bit of ingenuity and time spent on the bow.

[toby]

Hi Grahame, I don't know that it's possible to make Ilf limb pockets not adjustable.
Did you see what limb pockets you had on your warf?

[greybeard]

Hi Daryl, I did read that in your rules that you posted & I accept that you guys don't want them at your shoots.I was just trying to work out why Ilf weren't allowed?

Toby,

To set the records straight they are not my rules and nor do I claim ownership of them.

It was in late 2007 early 2008 that a number of trad shooters suggested that a uniform set of rules be drawn up which could be implemented at traditional shoots.

Suggestions are fine but it is a different matter trying to get these people to help formulate a policy.

As volunteers were not forthcoming Grahame Amy, Perry Jackson and I decided to follow through with the idea as we believed it was a worthwhile project.

A draft proposal was posted on the Ozbow site for comment and suggestions. Overall the document required only minor changes.

The most contentious points were leather covered fibreglass Asiatic static tip bows being included in the modern recurve division and not the primitive/traditional division and shelf/no shelf in primitive.

From memory not even one comment was made regarding ILF bows.

After many emails back and forth a frame work for proposed rules was put into place and once fine tuned a proposal came into being on the 7th. July 2008.

The document was posted on the Ozbow site for review.

Consensus of opinion from traditional archers was instrumental in these rules being put in place.

The response was favourable and the new rules were first used at the North Albert trad shoot in 2009.

These rules were made available to any club that wanted to use them for their traditional shoots.

As mentioned before people wanting to experience a traditional shoot will not be turned away if their equipment does not comply with the rules; it simply means they will not be eligible for a trophy.

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Did you see what limb pockets you had on your warf?

What type of limb pockets does your warf have? Most these days are Ilf.[/quote}
None. It has bolts. I made the bow myself on a Darton riser.