Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

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Stickbow Hunter
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#151 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:21 pm

Ronster wrote:So again I say "in my opinion Trad shoots, Trad rules, as adverised prior to the event". If you want to shoot other than this then enter the events that suit the bow and equipment that you prefer.
You nailed it IMO Ron. If people come to the shoot and want to shoot equipment other than what is covered by the shoot rules they shouldn't be allowed to regardless of if they score or not IMO.

The only other thing I will say is that I don't believe recurves should be allowed to be shot in the longbow division as is the case presently at the Trad Shoots.

Jeff

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#152 Post by littlejohn59 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:43 pm

Ronster wrote:
So again I say "in my opinion Trad shoots, Trad rules, as advertised prior to the event". If you want to shoot other than this then enter the events that suit the bow and equipment that you prefer.
Touche'

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#153 Post by perry » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:51 am

Jeff you applied that to me at the Longbow Muster. I turned up with a short Selfbow, Self Nocked Handplaned Arrows and a Homemade Quiver. You said as my Selfbow was under shoulder high I could not shoot in Longbow division and as it's not a Recurve I could not shoot it in Recurve division.

I was rightly more than a little peaved and it goes a ways towards explaining the comments I made earlier about an Exclusive Mentality in Traditional Archery. Some good came from that Incident in that it put my Archery on the path it is on now and sincerly I owe you a dept of gratitude

Jeff if you attended Trad Shoots which I hope you will again you would see new Archers with non Trad Compliant Equipment turn up for a look and to be told they can not Shoot in a non competitive Division is Wrong. You run the great risk of losing them from Trad Archery altogether

I fully support the current Trad Rules They should also be reviewed and updated if necessary regularly. I believe it is short sighted and can easiy lead to the previously mentioned exclusive attitude not to have a Non Competitive Division for non compliant Gear for the reasons stated. I'd love to see these Rules / Guidlines adopted Nationwide for uniformity. This does not restrict the individual Clubs format for their Shoots

A suggestion hows about 3 Strikes which I think is Fair, should make it clear and give plenty of time for these people to learn to make or buy compliant Gear.

regards Jacko
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#154 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:59 am

perry wrote:Jeff you applied that to me at the Longbow Muster. I turned up with a short Selfbow, Self Nocked Handplaned Arrows and a Homemade Quiver. You said as my Selfbow was under shoulder high I could not shoot in Longbow division and as it's not a Recurve I could not shoot it in Recurve division.
I can't remember this to be honest but I will point out that the rules of the shoot were always well publicised. If you chose to front up with non conforming equipment than you were not eligible to shoot. I always remember plenty of gear being leant to people to enable them to shoot. On the recurve comment; perhaps you are mistaken as the Longbow Musters were longbow shoots so obviously no recurve divisions.
perry wrote:I was rightly more than a little peaved and it goes a ways towards explaining the comments I made earlier about an Exclusive Mentality in Traditional Archery.
As has been mentioned above, the Trad shoot rules are well publicised and it is the responsibility of those who wish to attend to comply with those rules if they wish to participate IMO. There are any number of shoots for people to shoot their chosen equipment at but the Trad shoots have there own set of rules and if people can't bother to comply with them then they shouldn't shoot IMO. Most any sport has rules that the competitors must comply with if they wish to participate. If they don't comply then they can't participate and I don't see why the Trad shoots are any different.

Jeff

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#155 Post by kerry » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:20 am

Jacko, i agree with you.
Jeff. yes rules are made to be adhered to which i respect , however i can't see why another division for people to shoot their ILF bows be introduced, as far as i can understand ilf bows have been excluded as they have the capability to be adjusted weight wise . it usually takes me around 45 minutes to alter mine and get it shooting ok.so i have really no intention of doing that halfway thru a shoot. surely if the staid C.W.A. can allow packet cakes to be used in their cooking comps.we could allow another division to be introduced in our shoots. cheers kerry
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#156 Post by scuzz » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:39 am

Stickbow Hunter wrote:
Ronster wrote:So again I say "in my opinion Trad shoots, Trad rules, as adverised prior to the event". If you want to shoot other than this then enter the events that suit the bow and equipment that you prefer.
You nailed it IMO Ron. If people come to the shoot and want to shoot equipment other than what is covered by the shoot rules they shouldn't be allowed to regardless of if they score or not IMO.

The only other thing I will say is that I don't believe recurves should be allowed to be shot in the longbow division as is the case presently at the Trad Shoots.

Jeff
Hi Jeff
I have seen you express this a couple of times. Is this a difference between different trad events where the rules between longbow and recurve is different??

I have only been back into archery for a few months now, but from memory there were a few different opinions.

1, Amount of deflex - needing to be under 1" or something like that
2, On a braced bow the limbs need to have no reflex
3, the string not touching the limb at brace
4, And now a new one as perry has mentioned, length?? or was it the fact that it was a selfbow and not a longbow??.

So what im trying to get at really. I am assuming different events hold different "restrictions' for these two divisions?? But i guess if there isnt a 'national governing body' so the only real option is to check the rules of the particular trad shoot as they come about and ensure that your eligible.

Scuzz

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#157 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:31 am

scuzz wrote:2, On a braced bow the limbs need to have no reflex
Any bow that has reflex in the limbs when strung is a recurve Scuzz yet many of these type bows are allowed to be shot in the longbow division at the Trad shoots hence my comment.
scuzz wrote:4, And now a new one as perry has mentioned, length?? or was it the fact that it was a selfbow and not a longbow??.
This was for the Australian Longbow Musters that were held back in the 1980's and 1990's. This shoot later had a name change to the Australian Longbow and Recurve Muster and are are still being held each year. At the Longbow Muster we did have a length limit as short bows obviously aren't longbows unless you are short of stature of course. From memory the rule was that your longbow had to reach shoulder height when strung. This to me was still pretty generous as it allowed for fairly short bows - around 60" for a normal height adult from memory.

Jeff

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#158 Post by scuzz » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:35 am

Stickbow Hunter wrote:
scuzz wrote:2, On a braced bow the limbs need to have no reflex
Any bow that has reflex in the limbs when strung is a recurve Scuzz yet many of these type bows are allowed to be shot in the longbow division at the Trad shoots hence my comment.
scuzz wrote:4, And now a new one as perry has mentioned, length?? or was it the fact that it was a selfbow and not a longbow??.
This was for the Australian Longbow Musters that were held back in the 1980's and 1990's. This shoot later had a name change to the Australian Longbow and Recurve Muster and are are still being held each year. At the Longbow Muster we did have a length limit as short bows obviously aren't longbows unless you are short of stature of course. From memory the rule was that your longbow had to reach shoulder height when strung. This to me was still pretty generous as it allowed for fairly short bows - around 60" for a normal height adult from memory.

Jeff
Re"curve", so reflex curvature in the limb?? Kind of makes sense :geek:

Thanks for the clarity
Scuzz

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#159 Post by GrahameA » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:08 pm

Hi Kerry.
kerry wrote:... surely if the staid C.W.A. can allow packet cakes to be used in their cooking comps ...
Tar and Feather them or least Batter and Deep Fry I say!! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Not everyone has gone the Packet Cake Mix route!! :roll:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-12/p ... on/4626416
http://www.theshake.com.au/news-opinion ... ssibility/
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#160 Post by toby » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:41 pm

greybeard wrote:
toby wrote:including new comers & families who I think would rarely be asked.

One thing I have also learnt in life is that there are lots of followers out there who will simply agree with what you tell them they should agree with. Quite often this is because people don't like confrontation or wishing not to offend the other persons beliefs regardless of there own thoughts on the matter, these people are often called the silent majority.
How much understanding would new comers have regarding bow classification?

Is it possible that the silent majority may be happy with the rules and therefore do not comment?

Daryl.
G'day Daryl
I don't think most new comers would no much about the classifications until they may have an interest in going to a shoot. But having said that, Based on earlier comments it seems that current longbow competitors are not sure on what classification there longbows fall in. I've also seen alot of deflex reflex bows being shot in the long bow division also are they long bows or not? I have my opinion but it probably doesn't count.To me the difference between these two is greater as one gives a performance advantage over the other, more so than which mount is used to attach a set of limbs to a riser.

The silent majority may be happy with things just the way they are but you won't know unless you ask them.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#161 Post by perry » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Jeff, I had heard so much about that shoot and sadly it that was the first and last Longbow Muster I attended. I went back to Hunting that Weekend. It was a long time ago and memories going to get Foggy, probably mixed up the Recurve bit with a argument or 3 over ABA's Rules and Selfbows. Thankfully they have addressed this now

I had no idea about the Musters Rules other than the Name of the Shoot until after I'd arrived. It was a Rude introduction to the World of Trad Bow Shoots I never wish to witness again.

Can we have some discussion on the earlier suggestion of a 3 Stikes / Shoots Clause in the Trad Shoot Rules so that potential New Trad Shooters who do not own Compliant Gear ie ILF Bow, Carbon Arrows - may Shoot in a non competitive division for 3 Shoots which should give them ample opportunity to get Compliant Gear. The Clubs would need to keep Records and it would cover Daryl's earlier concern about People exploiting a Loophole if there where no conditions placed on a non competitive division. I think this is a Fair Compromise

Just because something is widely known does not mean it is widely understood or that everyone will have heard of it. The General Public at the recent Hall of Fame Expo did not expect Archery to be such a diverse Sport or have any idea of the different Equipment, Disiplines and Skills

regards Jacko
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#162 Post by The Hunt » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:31 pm

I agree with Perry, at our clubs trad comp we had a non competitive section to encourage first timers to try trad. This included newbies, or families or may not be in a position to have everyone tooled up with timber arrows. Our aim was to expose our members to the trad scene and engage them in running and supporting the event at their club. It hurts no one as they are not with categories , I like the idea of 3 comps then tool up. I M new to the sport and what I have enjoyed is the the welcoming, inclusive nature of the scene, where people are prepared to,share knowledge. I would think this approach fits with in that. he last thing you want newbies to do is go out and buy all the wrong gear etc.
perry wrote:Jeff, I had heard so much about that shoot and sadly it that was the first and last Longbow Muster I attended. I went back to Hunting that Weekend. It was a long time ago and memories going to get Foggy, probably mixed up the Recurve bit with a argument or 3 over ABA's Rules and Selfbows. Thankfully they have addressed this now

I had no idea about the Musters Rules other than the Name of the Shoot until after I'd arrived. It was a Rude introduction to the World of Trad Bow Shoots I never wish to witness again.

Can we have some discussion on the earlier suggestion of a 3 Stikes / Shoots Clause in the Trad Shoot Rules so that potential New Trad Shooters who do not own Compliant Gear ie ILF Bow, Carbon Arrows - may Shoot in a non competitive division for 3 Shoots which should give them ample opportunity to get Compliant Gear. The Clubs would need to keep Records and it would cover Daryl's earlier concern about People exploiting a Loophole if there where no conditions placed on a non competitive division. I think this is a Fair Compromise

Just because something is widely known does not mean it is widely understood or that everyone will have heard of it. The General Public at the recent Hall of Fame Expo did not expect Archery to be such a diverse Sport or have any idea of the different Equipment, Disiplines and Skills

regards Jacko

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#163 Post by Farmhand » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:04 pm

I'm interested in attending a shoot, not sure if my bow would qualify, even after reading a fair bit of this topic thread. :oops: I'm in Central Queensland by the way.
Anyway I would have no problem buying the correct bow type and setting it up by the rules and using wooden arrows, but to actually know if your personal bow qualifies means I would need to know a bit more than I do about the materials the bow is made from. As I understand it a take down bow would not be allowed.

I glued some wood to my shelf (3 mm or so) and laid some thin leather over that as well as a toothpick on the side of the riser with leather over that also. Is it ok to do that for competition ? Or must it be only leather. The wood actually becomes part of the bow. :biggrin:

I just recently got into archery, I have a bit of room to shoot, so can practice whenever I like. I enjoy it a lot. I can buy a one piece recurve bow. By the way is it just me or are take down bows usually longer than one piece bows, I'm unsure how big the bow should be for me, the range of sizes seems a lot. My recurve is supposed to be only 36 lb @ 28 inches it's 64 inches long, but when I measure it on a scale it says it is 47 lb @ 28 inches. It does put large arrows right through a feed bag full of compost at 12 meters. I can hit the 10 from 30 sometimes and from different heights and stuff. Don't have wooden arrows yet, but I'm sure they will fly straight as well. I got chickens and turkeys for feathers. I hope to get a bunny or two here one day.

I do want a better "proper" bow but I want to know more before I buy another.

Main question is the shelf business and adding wood there.

Andrew.

P.S. Where can I read about how a shoot is usually conducted like in what distances and so forth ?

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#164 Post by longbowinfected » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:40 pm

I love shooting longbow both at AA and Trad.
I do not believe that the progression of modern longbow is advanced with all the differences between various organisations like AA, ABA, 3DAAA. I like playing all of their games plus going to shoots at HVTA / Wisemans. Out of the guys I compete against in AA competition I was very late to upgrade from a flat laid boo bow to a Deflex/Reflex modern longbow. At least up to that point D/R longbows are not really tunable so I can accept that as the range of bows called modern longbow. I wish there was a rule saying there has to be some timber or boo in the bow. Timber is a limiting factor in that there is great variability which makes the skill sets of the bowyers, arrow makers and archers much more noteworthy. I can understand Jeffs stand on longbow. If I went to a shoot he ran I would bring along my old flat laid bow. No offence meant Jeff I doubt that I would go out of my way to shoot that bow [limited time / money / like d/r bows] so in essence I pay attention to local rules.
I cannot readily accept bolt on limb bows of any type as a modern longbow as there is a major difference in these bows due to being different longer more stable risers. There are other options for two piece take down bows in the handle for longbows. Even without pistol grips, extra long risers the mere increased mass and stiffness in my take down D/R Black Widow gives me a real sense of extra facility compared to the wonderfully crafted super fast bows Steve Farrell has made me. Lucky me. I cannot accept recent changes on longbow brought in by AA where the longbow could be an overbraced recurve bow with really long and heavy pistol grip [adjustable] machined metal riser short carbon composite limbs, tunable ILF fittings without any timber at all. I fought tooth and nail against this and have given up. I read the entry rules, choose to still use my modern longbow and enjoy the shoots I wish to go to.

Observation 1: With huge numbers of complicated rules you need lots of judges
Observation 2: I regularly get told I cannot do/have something by these highly dedicated and trained judges and this is with using the exact same set of gear that I used in a World Championship event where a Panel of International Judges tested every aspect of your kit. I even carry a copy of the rules and measuring equipment. The silly thing is nothing I have is exploring the outer parameters and none of it gives me unfair advantage. I guess most judges develop a negative outlook [reason why I resigned as a judge after qualifying. Now when I am told I am in the wrong I merely mentally go calm and politely ask them to check their rules.
Observation 3: I completed training as a judge. Only 1 out of 3 or 4 people successfully complete this training. Note you could not officiate at an AA shoot without judges needing to compare notes discuss things and double check electronic rules books rulings, case histories and other sources
Observation 4: at AA events there needs to be an officially formed appeals committee
Observation 5:No judges at trad shoots
Observation 6: No appeals committees at trad shoots
Observation 7:Rules at trad shoots can be written on the back of your score sheet
Observation 8: There might be a field captain or safety officer at trad events. In fact there are but you are not aware of them because the rules are simple and because there is no or little evidence of officious over zealousness
Observation 9: the number of attendees at and quality of the trad shoots I have attended is increasing at Trad shoots. The number of attendees attending State shoots in AA is decreasing even though they are changing to shorter shoots because those who do not attend say they would if shorter....now existing clients happy with the staus quo are getting lesser value
Observation 10: Marketing Rule number one: Give your clients what you want and be happy if they are. Handy Hint: If they are attending local and long distance shoots and enjoying themselves perhaps the offer is acceptable
Recommendation: Change hardly nothing but celebrate local rules as being formed by perceived local conditions ...it aint broke. Look after each other,,,really who cares about a trad technology war? We have more in common than those poits we could argue about. Take extra gear to loan to the newbies. Set up a newbies tent and run a Welcome to Trad group session. Give them free lessons on short butts then take groups onto the course. Maybe give them a laminated acknowledgement after the prize giving. We sort of do this in an unofficial way but could maximise this.

I go into AA Veterans division next year. I am thinking of shooting woods and ELB then I would only need one bow. Oh by the way we could actually be radical and only run one prize and do everything by handicapping, then again I have never tried to win anything at a trad shoot, I go to shoot everything except the novelties as many times as I can.....actually other than for bragging results do we need prizes? At least the sessions are shorter at Trad shoots.

Kevin
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#165 Post by Roadie » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:10 pm

Ay Kevin, Me thinks two much Irish Anti Freeze has passed thou lips, Great Reply, but at the Trad Shoots let the KISS principle apply. Did you suffer much damage with the recent fires, and I have some Great Scottish Malts to share with you. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#166 Post by longbowinfected » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Totally agree Roadie.
The longevity was part of my point. AA rules in all their books go over a thousand pages or so and errors are still made.
Fires still smouldering. Still not enough rain. Any hot dry windy days could see it all cause problems. Happy though. Inconvenienced mainly but happy for that as the major cost. Feel for those who lost property. Not better prepared to fight the next one but mentally better prepared if our colour and or number comes up on the Roulette Wheel. Be heartbreaking to be burnt out but we could both deal with a forced downsizing better now we have realised how fit you need to be fighting.....I still think I am 18 and indestructible. A day on a ladder up two storeys getting access to take out leaves has disavowed me of that myth...
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#167 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:53 pm

Farmhand wrote:Main question is the shelf business and adding wood there.
I think your bow would be fine for the shoots mate.

Jeff

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#168 Post by little arrows » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:09 pm

Hi Farmhand,

For a copy of the rules the Trad Shoots please go to the Trad Info tab on http://www.wallace4woods.com/main.htm - you will also find the dates (some still be confirmed) for the 2014 Trad shoots, plus flyers and information from all the 2013 shoots. You will also find information, plus all our banter, in the Traditional Events section of Ozbow.

When I see so many word I usually stop reading, (rattles the brain cell too much :smile: ) - anyhoo - I did read and Kevin, I must say, very well written.

Also pleased your family is safe at this stage.

cheers
sue

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#169 Post by Mick Smith » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:24 pm

It seems we can't put this hoary old chestnut to bed, can we? :lol:

I believe we need to keep restrictions to a minimum in order to be as inclusive as possible, within reason of course. I would only draw the line at compounds. If this means having more divisions, then so be it, IMO. So long as the organising clubs make the rules clear and they make the effort to be as inclusive to all participants as is practical, then I'm happy. Most clubs already do this.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#170 Post by Farmhand » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Thanks Jeff, I found some rules while looking last night and it would seem to be specifically allowed, and looking at many of the better bows they have a curved shelf and a piece of skin there and on the side.

Thank you very much Sue, I will check all that info out, I did find a little last night about some rules. I'll do more tonight.

Hi Kevin, even though I don't know many rules and it is not my place as a "virtual outsider still" to comment about rules. I have to say your posting was impressive. It made sense even to me. I just wanna shoot and compare, not so much "compete", but in every competition or comparison there must be agreed upon rules for sure. I think most of us would of want some good rules when we imagine what it would be like with none. :smile:

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#171 Post by Ian Turner » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:33 pm

Hi all,
Seems I opened the veritable pandora's box!!
After reading the post and reading the 3DAAA and ABA rules in my humble opinion the 3DAAA rules are pretty well defined as to bow classes and they at least allow 3 fingers under which I have found that I now prefer for many reasons.
While I am on that subject too there seems to be some controversy over whether one can shoot 3 under or split has to be adhered to; with 3daaa 3 under is OK but does not seem to comply with ABA.

Again in my opinion the rules and equipment allowed should be clearly defined on the flyers etc advertising the shoot or at least state that 3daaa (ABA, IFAA, AA, FITA etc etc) apply as default.

Regulars at shoots will know but relative new comers need to be advised via the flyer etc so that they don't go traveling long distances and find that they can't shoot and leave with a bad taste in the mouth and ill feeling towards the trad scene and miss out on some great times.

I asked this question initially as I didn't want that very scenario to happen to me and I did not want to go and buy bows etc that I thought were trad in nature only to find that say a reflex deflex longbow does not qualify even though its a longbow!

In conclusion all I can ask is that event organisers please clarify what bows and arrow types can be shot (wood, alumin, carbon or all) and if 3 under, split or any style of finger release is allowed.
Cheers all

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#172 Post by Ian Turner » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Hi Sue,
I went to your site and had a look at the rules and at first glance they seem fine to me.
I note that they state that only one nocking point is allowed prima facie no string walking however i assume two nocksets are allowed with the arrow nocked between them and hence one knocking point.
I like to have 2 nocksets as I find that i push the arrow back down the string when only using one.
I noticed that 3DAAA allow this too.
Cheers
IAN

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#173 Post by Farmhand » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:01 am

Hi Ian, For my 2 bobs worth on the finger pull styles and the nocking points. I know I shoot better with three under and "two" string nocks to make one nocking point , but I persist with one over two under because I think it gives more arrow control/safety, I imagine particularly important for hunting.

My concern would come if I seen an Archer whose single string nock point is a fair way above center of string length with only one string nock while using three under and nocking the arrow below the string nock. I imagine that on release the angle of the string could force the arrow nock to slide down the string, I don't like my arrow nocks to click on the string too tight, a small bump and they fall off if not held, and similarly with the arrow nocked above the single string nock and three fingers under the problem of the arrow nock sliding up the string can happen when shooting at angles.

My personal opinion is if using three fingers under two "string nocks" should be used to create one nocking point.

As it turns out I may have to go to three under as my right pointing finger is bent down at the tip from repeated dislocations playing indoor cricket wicket keeper. The finger tip bends down toward the string and causes the tip of the pointing finger to end up almost below the string and on release the string and upper string nock drag past the very corner of the finger tip and nail. I hope it toughens up and I can still shoot one over two under. First two fingers on both hands are bent down some quite a bit. Maybe Archery will straighten them for me. hehehee

Regards
Andrew
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#174 Post by Ian Turner » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:24 am

Hi mate,
I have some hand issues since I hurt it pretty badly back in March, partial tendon tear they tell me and I didn't shoot for 2 months.
Since I started shooting again I find 3 under now more comforable on my wrist.
Cheers
Ian

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Bent Stick
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#175 Post by Bent Stick » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:49 am

And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

It is what it is, be a poart of if it or not.

There are more inclusive shoots around they are open tournaments there's plenty of them, it's that you want or if it's an open shoot in the same format, just do it.
If your not having fun, your doing it for all the wrong reasons

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AndyF
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#176 Post by AndyF » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:05 pm

This rules stuff at Trad' shoots seems to be a right old can of worms eh?

For me, the shoots at the likes of Wiseman's and HVTA etc etc are all about fun, first and foremost. That said, as anyone who knows me will testify, I love the competitive side too.

The problem with 'Trad' rules is basically that, unlike our friends shooting freestyle recurve and compounds, there's virtually no standardisation in our equipment. If you think about it, unless you're shooting a Hoyt Buffalo or similar, or perhaps even a Bear Montana, Tomahawk, Great Plains, Martin longbow, then the rest of us are shooting something that amounts to 'home-made' equipment. Never mind the longbow, English longbow, horsebow, Mongolian, Turkish, Korean variants on a theme - and let's chuck Kyudo gear in there for good measure (would love to see someone do The Challenge course with one of those).

So, let's face it, unless there are specific divisions for modern longbow with R/D, flat bows, laminated with no glass flatbows, laminated english longbows, english longbows (self bows), English warbows, sort of flatbow selfbows, horn, sinew and fish glue horsebows, modern horsebows with glass...you get the idea, then there will never be like shooting exactly against like in the more specialised areas of our wonderful sport/pastime. For a start, can you imagine how long the awards bit would go? "First (and only competitor), Girls Cubs, Horn and Sinew Mongolian with thumb ring...etc".

Yes, I think there should be one or two categories for say horsebows, selfbows or primitive etc. But from what I've seen most people shooting those are doing it for 'fun'. If you really want to pick up a certificate for being the only person shooting a home made pvc pipe bow (not exactly 'Trad anyway), then you're probably shooting for the wrong reason - in my opinion.

My point is, if you really want to 'compete' at Trad shoots, shoot in a competitive division such as wooden recurves and modern longbows. Be a small fish in a big pond. You'll have lots of good competition and if you do well you'll probably deserve a bit of paper at the end. End of story. (Funnily enough, I've noticed that when the top shots from these bigger divisions decide to shoot selfbows etc i.e. Guy Layton, Howard O' etc, guess what? They usually win. Because they're good archers.)

Arrow rules at Trad shoots should be easy. Woods with feathers, or bamboo if you must. (Why do people keep buying 200 **** bamboo shafts from China, shoot them for about two months, realise they're ****, then go back to proper woods? Stop wasting your money!)

I'm happy to go with the various longbow rules from IFAA, FITA, AA etc and shoot my 'fast but twitchy' R/D locator grip longbows against Nick Lintern's 'forgiving' straight-handled flatbows and Big Kev's take down Black Widow (shot with a bow sling). The slight variances in our gear will never be as important as having arrows that are well-matched to your bow and doing the hard yards getting your technique sorted.

Enough of my waffling. Champagne and my Melbourne Cup lunch beckons.

A

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GrahameA
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#177 Post by GrahameA » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:32 pm

Hi Andy, et al
AndyF wrote:The problem with 'Trad' rules is basically that, unlike our friends shooting freestyle recurve and compounds, there's virtually no standardisation in our equipment. ... .... So, let's face it, unless there are specific divisions for ....
Yep, you are right.

I would suggest that the larger, monstrous, issue would be to get a large number of people lets say better than 50 people to all agree to the same set of rules and then get someone (or number of people) to write them. Personally I am amazed that we seem to be able to work with the small set that are currently used. Even if there is a call to change to include something in its own division or to include something that currently included, every now and then. (And sometimes it seems like ever second week.)
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#178 Post by longbowinfected » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:52 pm

Andy the only thing I disagree about is about boo arrows.

This is not a serious strong criticism Andy but there are some people out there who really do love their boo arrows. The other half like knocking them for their boo arrows.... I get that.
Spent $150 on 100 shafts [$50 being shipping], spent another $100 odd on second hand surplus to requirement components as well as using bibs n bobs lying around. Price is right, I made them myself and they are tuned to my bows. Still got 96 left after 4 years. I have a set of 20/24 field arrows for HVTA/Wisemans with screw on points.They even only break every second iron pig you hit. I have a set of 24/24 with big feathers/ including flu flus for my ELB. I have another set of 48/48 with screw on adapters for hunting, competition 3D and field and target They certainly fly beautifully off the bow and in the air. Never broken a single one hitting soft things like rocks........the points become a bit blunt or fly off but that bamboo shaft still hangs on. I have never injured one of my boo arrows on an AA style target and butt but I have damaged . During the time I have had boo arrows I have broken 30 wooden arrows and about 15 alloy arrows if you add in arrows I cannot straighten or shorten or splice new ends on. I did however like most beginner longbowers kill a hundred aluminium and wood arrows during my formative/learning years I also have two whistling arrows for fun. Your beautifully made arrows are far better made than mine and those that I have owned of yours have improved my game.......but each set only survived for a year or two. As Steve Farrell predicted that bundle of boo shafts will last me a lifetime or at least the balance I have remaining.

Without them for my woods and my mate Bob Sheehan giving me a couple of dozen used 1916 XX75 Platinum Plus arrows for AA competition I would be out of archery as I was made redundant a year ago. I think most people only have limited means and buy the things they see the best value wrt time and money. Hey it is all good. Great to see everyone so passionate about something they share with others....that is what makes trad so interesting. All archers are mainly individualists but trad archers are even more so.

The fact that we succeed with such a small amount of rules and everything is done on trust is in my opinion the glue that binds us together.

Kevin
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#179 Post by Ian Turner » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:33 pm

One of the writers in this thread made mention of bows such as Hoyt Buffalo, Dorado, Gamegetters etc which does raise an interesting point as they can be shot off the shelf or with a simple stick on rest would they qualify for use in the Recurve categories of Trad shoots?
I would assume so.
Cheers

longbowinfected
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#180 Post by longbowinfected » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:38 pm

Ian think about these curly ones......

For trad a fibre glass horse bow covered in leather with lateral string binding in the handle which could be readily used for sighting

For AA a high tech metal and carbon Olympic recurve sans sexy bits but overbraced so the string only touches the limb nocks being used in "longbow"

Yet modern longbows can be centre-shot , deflex/ reflex with fibreglass and / or carbon and you could use multiple parts of any bow as reference points for aiming.....allowable at AA and Trad

In fact at HVTA I was surprised to see that without the benefit of a speed gizmo that my Black Widow Take down Longbow was probably as fast as most Black Widow Recurves. It probably has as much deflex/reflex. I do not use it in Longbow at trad shoots but I do to stay competitive in clout and long distance target in AA. Since doing so I have done very well.
What about a metal spring steel laminated but riveted deflex/reflex longbow or recurve with carbon spacing lams.

As Andy pointed out so succinctly this could do your head in.


This is before you even consider arrow, string and glue technology. he reasonable rules the boys developed which were debated work well for a large sector of the trad community. If you want something included run your own event, include and see how that works out.

Still flinging arrows.

I would love to see Medieval type crossbows just for the heck of it even if I do not want to shoot one or make one. Then again I would like spear throwing added to axe and knife throwing.

Kevin
Last edited by longbowinfected on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

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