Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

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Stickbow Hunter
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#181 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:41 pm

AndyF wrote:Arrow rules at Trad shoots should be easy. Woods with feathers, or bamboo if you must. (Why do people keep buying 200 **** bamboo shafts from China, shoot them for about two months, realise they're ****, then go back to proper woods? Stop wasting your money!)
Andy,

I suggest you add an “in my opinion” to your comments. You are entitled to your opinions but I can assure you not everyone shares those opinions with you and I am certainly one of them.

I bought 100 Bamboo shafts from a fella in China and I am very happy with them. I have made them into very good robust hunting arrows that shoot every bit as good as any wood arrows I have tried. I have been making and shooting wood arrows for over 32 years so I believe I know what makes a good arrow and what doesn’t.

I have seen thousands of wood arrow shafts over the years that would barely make decent garden stakes let alone arrows.

The properties that make a good wood arrow are very similar to those that make a good Bamboo arrow. Make the arrows up taking into account, the spine, FOC, nock and point alignment etc AND ensure the arrows are matched to the bow they are being shot from and they will fly correctly.

Sure, as is the case with wood, some Bamboo arrow shafts are junk BUT certainly not all as your comments above suggest.

Anyway I couldn’t let such an erroneous statement as yours above go without comment.

Jeff

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#182 Post by GrahameA » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:54 pm

Afternoon.
Ian Turner wrote:One of the writers in this thread made mention of bows such as Hoyt Buffalo, Dorado, Gamegetters etc which does raise an interesting point as they can be shot off the shelf or with a simple stick on rest would they qualify for use in the Recurve categories of Trad shoots?
I would assume so.
Cheers
I strongly suggest you do not assume anything. Whilst there are a few club that shoot to a common set of rules there are probably more clubs that do not. So what may be acceptable at one shoot may not be acceptable at another.

If you go back to the start of this thread you will discover that there are many views on what is acceptable and what is not. Add to that for every views that is inclusive there will be another view that is exclusive and probably a bundle that go off at some tangent or jump to a new world altogether.

My experience suggests that getting one person to agree with themself what the 'rules' should be is an almost impossible task. Getting two people to agree will result in at least three different views. And so it goes.

The easiest solution is either to:
a) Ask the organising group what the rules are,
b) Go with the simplest bow possible so you do not transcend their rules,
c) Shoot gear that more or less looks 'Trad' and do not fill in a scorecard so that no one can complain about the equipment you were using.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Kev
longbowinfected wrote:Observation 7:Rules at trad shoots can be written on the back of your score sheet
That is a fallacy. There is an underlying acceptance that the 'Shooting Rules' of the parent body are, at least, partially in effect.
longbowinfected wrote:I go into AA Veterans division next year.
That is misleading. You will become eligible to shoot in the Veteran Division. My understanding is you have the choice to continue to shoot in the Open Division. And if you want to be really difficult don't hand in you scoresheet or score every arrow as a miss - it will also make it easier to add up. Then again if you just want to annoy someone have crappy addition and fail to fill in every square, etc.
Grahame.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#183 Post by longbowinfected » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:57 pm

Grahame,
not misleading at all.
I can, I will. I do reserve the right to annoy the open archers at events where there are no divisions.
Except for two events out of the i60 or so I have entered since starting archery I have shot less than 24 as an open archer and the rest as Masters [50-59]. My best archery buddy shoots Veterans and I will go and annoy him. He tells me that he is thinking of going to open......go figure :biggrin:

Jeff,
I do not think it is that easy to get the 100 blanks as it was. Does not matter, I have a life supply. I am interested to note that it appears that the Chinese now seem keen to sell made up sets at higher prices.
I find these shafts are ugly ducklings perhaps but safer versions of nature's own carbon shafts.

Kevin
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#184 Post by Roadie » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:17 pm

Drinks anyone. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#185 Post by Farmhand » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:22 pm

I need to check my local outdoors store to see if they sell wooden arrows. Is there anyone who makes wooden arrows to sell to order ? Maybe with identifiers ?
I'm keen to make my own but it would take me a long time. Would be nice to have a set of good arrows to begin with.

Andrew

P.S. Roadie, I'll have a couple of my home made clear 100 proof rums that has a hint of bundy rum flavor, yummy. Medicinal, but Cheers anyway. :biggrin:
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#186 Post by little arrows » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:24 pm

yes please Roadie, and make it a double.

cheers
sue

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#187 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:51 pm

Farmhand wrote:I need to check my local outdoors store to see if they sell wooden arrows. Is there anyone who makes wooden arrows to sell to order ? Maybe with identifiers ?
I'm keen to make my own but it would take me a long time. Would be nice to have a set of good arrows to begin with.

Andrew

P.S. Roadie, I'll have a couple of my home made clear 100 proof rums that has a hint of bundy rum flavor, yummy. Medicinal, but Cheers anyway. :biggrin:

You need look no further than the reply from Sue (little arrows) directly under your last post. Sue's partner makes the finest wooden arrows available anywhere and they're reasonably priced considering the amount of work involved. There's a link to the website in Sue's signature.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#188 Post by Farmhand » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:47 pm

Thanks Mick, Sue PM'ed me. Awesome. Need the good arrows so I can get lots of practice in. :oops:

..
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#189 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:52 am

Get amongst it Farmhand and have a fat time with it, see you at the muster

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#190 Post by AndyF » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:03 am

Ok, ok.

It seems there are people out there who love their 'boo arrows (Stickbow Hunter and Big Kev).

It's just that I've see a few people buy lots of them, shoot them for a short while, then never shoot them again. So 'in my opinion' (just for you, Stickbow Hunter :biggrin: ) I wonder why people bother.

Perhaps I'll start a new topic with a view to having my opinion changed.

Regardless, I'm still more than happy for them to be included with woods in Trad' shoots.

Cheers,

Andy

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#191 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 pm

What about divisions something along these lines?

1) Unlimited division - ILF bows, carbon arrows and anything that doesn't fit into the below categories. No compound bows allowed.

2) Recurve division - Modern laminated recurves. No sights. No Stabilisers. No elevated or drop away rests. Wood arrows only.

3) Longbow division - Modern laminated longbows. Same conditions as recurves apply.

4) Self bow division - Any bow made entirely of natural timber ( + glue, horn and/or leather). No arrow shelf allowed. Wood arrows only.

This is only a total of 4 divisions, surely clubs can cope with just 4 divisions. I believe this covers the entire spectrum of trad shooters, so nobody should be left out.

It's straightforward and simple. Just a suggestion. :wink:
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#192 Post by Bent Stick » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:27 pm

And the wheels on the bus go round and round

Great idea so how about organising that shoot and kill this endless debate, the current shoots are what they are instead of trying to bend them just do it already o am I missing the point ? Someone else has to do it ?

This keeps going round and round and that shoot with the whatsitsname division still hasn't had anyone put any effort in? Get it done and get the pics up I say instead of the endless whinge of death

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#193 Post by longbowinfected » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:51 pm

Why not a special short course version trad event where you can only use flu flus?
never complain....you did not have to wake up....every day is an extra bonus and costs nothing.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#194 Post by Roadie » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:29 pm

Now Kevin, that is a pearler of an Idea. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#195 Post by GrahameA » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:59 am

Hi Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:What about divisions something along these lines?

1) Unlimited division - ILF bows, carbon arrows and anything that doesn't fit into the below categories. No compound bows allowed.

2) Recurve division - Modern laminated recurves. No sights. No Stabilisers. No elevated or drop away rests. Wood arrows only.

3) Longbow division - Modern laminated longbows. Same conditions as recurves apply.

4) Self bow division - Any bow made entirely of natural timber ( + glue, horn and/or leather). No arrow shelf allowed. Wood arrows only.
My suggestion. Put together the full rules for equipment (or at least flesh out what you are suggesting) and run a shoot using those rules and see how it goes.
Grahame.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#196 Post by Bent Stick » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:06 am

I like the way you think Graeme.

Kev, "That does sound like a great idea, take it further mate"
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#197 Post by Ian Turner » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:05 am

Hi guys yeah that sounds pretty good to me too as a default set of rules.
Cheers

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#198 Post by Bent Stick » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:35 pm

The default set of rules i thin you'll find are already there, instead of trying to vhange them or ()*&^ into the wind just start a shoot with those rules
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#199 Post by Mick Smith » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:54 pm

longbowinfected wrote:Why not a special short course version trad event where you can only use flu flus?
This is a good idea Kevin.
GrahameA wrote:Hi Mick.

My suggestion. Put together the full rules for equipment (or at least flesh out what you are suggesting) and run a shoot using those rules and see how it goes.
Hi Grahame. I'm not even a member of a club at the moment, so I'm no longer in a position to run a shoot. I have just put the idea forward so that other clubs might try it, if they can see any advantages in doing so.

With the exception of the 'unlimited division', which as never existed to my knowledge, the above basic concept has worked well in the past for quite a few events, of which I did have some input.

The use of carbon arrows and some of the high tech, non-compound bows in comps have never been satisfactorily addressed in the past, IMO, hence my suggestion.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#200 Post by toby » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:38 pm

I promised myself I wouldn't get drawn back into this thread, so much for that.
Mick I agree with the basic idea of your divisions as I to believe that we should be as inclusive as possible.Ultimately though it should be left upto the clubs to decide on how they decide there divisions & shoot rules & anything that isn't a compound & doesn't fit into those divisions should be shot non competitively just for fun.
I also think it's silly to suggest that an individual should organise a shoot every time someone has a difference of opinion on what is or isn't acceptable to use at a trad shoot.
There will always be debate & differences of opinion in what is or isn't Trad. Even the term Traditional Archery in itself is a hard one to define.
Lyonel

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#201 Post by Gringa Bows » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:06 pm

Why don't we let all these modern type bows that have no timber in them and shoot arras that aint timber into the shoots and call them a not so trad shoot :biggrin: :lol:

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#202 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:14 am

Morning Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:Hi Grahame. I'm not even a member of a club at the moment, so I'm no longer in a position to run a shoot. I have just put the idea forward so that other clubs might try it ...
And therein lies the issue.

There exists a set of rules/guidelines that a number of clubs use.

If people are not will to write rules, promote "rules", defend them and try them out then it all stops. You were present when things were being formulated and did provide feedback. Organisations/clubs have the freedom to use whatever "rules"/guidelines they want.

I do not expect to see anything change for a long time purely as a result of there not being people who are willing to go through the process of:
* Proposing something.
* Developing the argument for it
* Write it
* Have it stand against critical review
* Trial it
* Get it accepted by clubs/organisations
* and then defend it
Grahame.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#203 Post by Bent Stick » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:26 am

I figure if you seriously want to do something you goet off your butt and do it, the endless debate, wheedling, talking around everything except actually doing it and expecting everyone else to do it for you is the problem.

No one takes and an #SS clown seriouslly that won't get off a soapbox and pitch in to make it happen, standing on the soapbox and expecting clubs etc to bend to your will is just whinging.

There are some great idea's that seem to float the boat, either do it or just keep on whinging until someone actually believes your so touched that they just have to get out there and put in the hard yards for you. Your either serious and going to make it happen or your just a whinging ,,,,,,,,,,,,

I think my position is quite clear and unlikely to change.

Lead by example, be proactive and leave the whinging in the dust where it should have stayed.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#204 Post by scuzz » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:15 am

Mick Smith wrote:

The use of carbon arrows and some of the high tech, non-compound bows in comps have never been satisfactorily addressed in the past, IMO, hence my suggestion.
This topic does seem to repeat every now and again. You can ask 'why' as much as you like and the only answers you will get is the following:

a) Start your own shoot if you don't like it
b) Don't fix what isn't broken
c) Lets have a scotch

Sadly such responses have no relevance to the questions being asked. For some reason it is assumed that 'questioning' means you expect someone else to do something about it, when for me I was only wondering what the reason was (alloy/carbon arrows not traditional enough, adjustable limbs give an unfair advantage) as this doesn't affect me, i shoot longbow.

I believe there is no reason.

Scuzz

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#205 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:13 am

Morning.

Time for a break.
scuzz wrote:... You can ask 'why' as much as you like and the only answers you will get is the following:

a) Start your own shoot if you don't like it
b) Don't fix what isn't broken
c) Lets have a scotch

Sadly such responses have no relevance to the questions being asked.
It is dependent on the question being asked. If the question is, "Why", the answer can be as simple as "Because that is the way it is" or as complicated/informative as the responders want to make it. Thus it has relevance.

If the question is "Why cannot the rules be changed" the answer is, "Yes, they can be", however the work will have to be done by those who want the change.
scuzz wrote:... as this doesn't affect me, i shoot longbow.
It will when someone decides that your bow does not meet their spec!
Bent Stick wrote:... be proactive ...
:shock: Surely you jest!!
LB rod 55 wrote:Why don't we let all these modern type bows that have no timber in them and shoot arras that aint timber into the shoots and call them a not so trad shoot :biggrin: :lol:
Hi Rod - Yep, for me there is shoot on every weekend ........ and a few on during the week. And if I am willing to put up with my own company there is the opportunity every day, all I need do is wander down to the clubs I am a member of.

Back to doing other things.
Grahame.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#206 Post by Bent Stick » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:38 am

the current rule set for whatever shoot your talking about is a datum " look it up." the line in the sand that deliniates this from being an open shoot or other such generic type function.

The not so useful answers referred to on the subject, "which are about you changing it, and stick in your throat like a chicken bone" are appropriate, you want the datum shifted don't fluff it up and call it roses etc etc etc.

If the only appropriate answer acceptable is someone agreeing agreeing with you or doing the sork for you, then you have a psychological definaition to apply to the debate, "recommend you look this up as there are some great self assessment and referral tools available"

There are open shoots a plenty and they include all bows etc etc. what you want is to drop the trad datum and make the shoots open shoots. after all you have to include the compounds as well donlt you you have to be inclusive "current debate"

If it really sticks in your craw, change it. The moment it becomes a debate and someone disagrees with you and you think its not helpful your actually not debating your whinging like a little .........

Just do it already call it the funtastico a go go or something establish a benchmark instead of wallowing in your own ...............

or did i forget its not an appropriate answer unless someone else does it for you?

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#207 Post by Bent Stick » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:44 am

Why don't we let all these modern type bows that have no timber in them and shoot arras that aint timber into the shoots and call them a not so trad shoot :biggrin: :lol:
I think it's because they want you to do the groundwork for them Rod.

Pretty sure if as much effort went into a business case for the alleged biased shoots and was presented positively to the clubs putting in the effort; maybe volunteering a little grunt work and assistance the alleged whingers might actually be proactive.

Unitl that time whinger is an apt description
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#208 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:44 pm

toby wrote:I promised myself I wouldn't get drawn back into this thread, so much for that.
Mick I agree with the basic idea of your divisions as I to believe that we should be as inclusive as possible.Ultimately though it should be left upto the clubs to decide on how they decide there divisions & shoot rules & anything that isn't a compound & doesn't fit into those divisions should be shot non competitively just for fun.
I also think it's silly to suggest that an individual should organise a shoot every time someone has a difference of opinion on what is or isn't acceptable to use at a trad shoot.
There will always be debate & differences of opinion in what is or isn't Trad. Even the term Traditional Archery in itself is a hard one to define.

I totally agree mate. It is silly. Surely this subject can be debated as adults the same as any other. The various clubs have their own rules and that's fine. I have never expected any club to suddenly change their ideas just to suit me. I've been totally happy to shoot under the existing rules at any of the shoots that I've attended. Personally, I find it interesting to talk about these sorts of things and I'm sure there are many others who also like to discuss them as much as I do.
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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#209 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:06 pm

GrahameA wrote:Morning Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:Hi Grahame. I'm not even a member of a club at the moment, so I'm no longer in a position to run a shoot. I have just put the idea forward so that other clubs might try it ...
And therein lies the issue.

There exists a set of rules/guidelines that a number of clubs use.

If people are not will to write rules, promote "rules", defend them and try them out then it all stops. You were present when things were being formulated and did provide feedback. Organisations/clubs have the freedom to use whatever "rules"/guidelines they want.

I do not expect to see anything change for a long time purely as a result of there not being people who are willing to go through the process of:
* Proposing something.
* Developing the argument for it
* Write it
* Have it stand against critical review
* Trial it
* Get it accepted by clubs/organisations
* and then defend it
Hi Grahame.

I know a lot of time and hard work went into the current trad shoot rules. I'm not attacking those rules. Actually, I'm quite happy with them. This doesn't mean that time stops though. Things change. People get older. Newcomers arrive on the scene. It can't hurt trad shooting in general, to rationally and logically discuss the relevance of the rules in today's environment. If the rules are as robust and applicable as what I think they are, there won't be any reason to even consider modifying them.

My only concern is that the rules might not be as inclusive as they could be for our younger, more tech conscious trad shooters. Should we try to accommodate these archers within the trad shoot structure, or is it okay to simply turn them away? I don't know the answer. I was simply posing the question and a possible solution.

By the emotional nature of some of the responses so far, speaking of this subject is obviously verging on being a 'taboo'. It shouldn't be, IMO.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Bows that qualify for trad shoots and restrictions

#210 Post by Roadie » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Ay Ian, Have you found the answer to the question you posted.

When I ran the TRAD shoot down here the Rules were made known, and no one objected, and everyone I am lead to believe had a great time.
Wooden or bamboo arrows fine, as long the Bow you was using was Naked and for all intentions was considered a Trad Bow OK. Those that came with questionable equip were allowed to shoot BUT were classed as non competitive which they accepted and thoroughly enjoyed themselves, and said that next time they would attempt to have the right gear next time.
I am quite happy to run my Trad Shoots based on the shoots I have attended in NSW, QLD and some here in VIC, the Rules at these Shoots are acceptable to me. So if you find the Rules confronting to yourself, you have 2 choices, either DON'T GO, or Get of your Backside, Talk to you Club and Set up your Own Shoot, with your Own Set of Rules & Regulations. And what would you Call IT.
Time for a Drink, and to watch the Death Of Julius Caesar, and the Civil War that ensue of Rome. Cheers Roadie.

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