buffulo hunting question. now with chrono data

[clinton miller]

what bow/arrow/broadhead combo/s have you used to successfully take a bull buffulo?

i'm planning on using my bob lee recurve. 69#@ my 28"draw (string to throat of grip) with goldtip 75/95 arrows with double bevel blackstumps and/or single bevel grizzlies. total arrow weight= 790grs @ 22% FOC. with great flight. shots within 15m only. i'm not good enough past that yet.

so what have you used?

[Benny Nganabbarru]

I used the wrong set-up and got lucky with a heart-shot. I was a beginner (still am) and it was only my second traditional bowkill and fourth bowkill in total (including my first and only two with a compound). Anyway, it was a younger bull of only about 450 to 500 kg. The 780 grain 2317 arrow was wearing a Davies Delta on an aluminium adaptor, and went in halfway, shot from roughly 63# at 29" of Martin Hunter recurve. Since then, I've aquired gear which to my mind is more suitable, but despite trying hard, I have not yet taken another. One day...

[DylanK]

Clinton you have taken a scrub bull with a 55# bow, can you not just use the same setup or are buff that much tougher?

Dylan

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Buff are that much tougher, alright. Their hides (or the stuff underneath) are much thicker.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I have not shot a live bull buff but have tried. Never got to let an arra loose at one. I did test out my bow and arra combo on a very freshly killed bull and it seemed like it would do the job ok. I was using a 70# @ 26.5" longbow and 875 grain arras. I was using a prototype Ribtek which was long and slim.

I think your setup would do the job but personally I wouldn't use the Grizzlies as I don't like them. I know they have a good following but I have used them and didn't like them.

All the best if you go for a buff hunt. I would love to one day hunt them again but I don't know if that will ever happen, can always dream.

Dylan, as Ben has said, there is a huge difference between a scrub bull and a bull buff.

Jeff

[trophy bowhunts]

Having taken Buff with Recurve and Longbow I use the following to do the job>

Black Widow Recurve 61lb @28 Arrows 75-95 Carbon Express or heritage 350's with a Grizzly 190m gr or Magnus 165 gr head. Steel Adapters & Steel inserts. Total arrow weight 820grs.

Black Widow Longbow. 67lb @ 28in same arrows. (Thanks Ben).

Your setup should do the job with well placed arrows.

They are one tough animal.

Cheers
Mick

[DylanK]

I thought they would be similar but guess not

Dylan

[ichiban]

so really you need about 70lbs for thease monsters??

[Stickbow Hunter]

so really you need about 70lbs for thease monsters??

A lot can depend on bow design but I would think it fair to say yes 70# and up. A buff is huge especially when you get up close and they have thick ribs.

Jeff

[Glenn]

Clinton, I have never shot a buff but that set-up will be fine for Buff. Plenty have been shot with 60# bows, I had a bloke call in on me years ago from the Territory that had taken several buff with a 55# recurve. I wouldn't be afraid to use the Grizzly's as they are a fantastic head...Glenn...

[Al Kidner]

I'm sorry but I really dont subscribe to the thought process of light poundage bows and big game... regardless of how "well designed" a bow is ... or what type of arrow/broadhead combo one uses.

Not that I've hunted our buff ...but I have done a my fair share of homework on the subject both on the net and talking to real hunters that have put the big fellas on the ground with stickbows, both with recurve and longbows. The reason being as I have a buff hunt up my sleeve whenever I've the time to do it.

The fellas I've talked to all say... shoot the highest poundage bow you can shoot well, and it's not all about poundage... getting a bow at 70# or 80#'s is the easy part... the well tuned arrow/BH combo is the hardest part of the whole operation and I'm sure we've all heard this.

INHO to many people think that if it takes some effort to shoot a 70 pound bow then they are over bowed... and this maybe so. What I'm saying is ...this is Archery & Archery is a sport. So please tell me what sport dont you need practice in to do well at or train to reach a goal. If you want to shoot a buff and a 75# bow is to heavy for you then bloody well do some training on the problem and work up to it.


But getting back to the question at hand, I think your setup will be OK.



ak.

[clinton miller]

i agree al. i've been working on pulling 70# for a year now. when you want something bad enough you'll be amazed at what you do to achieve it.

[Glenn]

The trouble with this whole debate is that there are too many people out there unting with bows that are too heavy for them to shoot consistently, and very often at the end of a hard day out in the field and short draw their bow on a good game animal simply because they are over bowed. Years ago I was told that I practice with a bow I could handle and comfortably and hunt with 5# less, that was good advice.
Just shooting a heavy is not what it is all about at all as a heavy poundage bow will never be a guarantee of putting game on the ground. If a 65# bow and a 70# bow shoots the same weight arrow the same speed does this mean that the 70# bow will have more penetration?
I use to shoot a 70# longbow in the 70's made by a really famous bowhunter and honestly I got better results from my 60# recurve, my 60# recurve out performed the longbow in every aspect. I am not going to have anybody telling me that bow design doesen't come into it...Glenn...

[Al Kidner]

Just how many people do you hunt with Glenn in order to say that people are hunting with bows that are to heavy in poundage for them?

We've all seen people at times shooting bows on the "too heavy" list and this can be put down to a number of things. The main one I think is they dont shoot often enough to develop the muscle memory needed in shooting that results in the failure of practice that all hunters should do to be a better and more accurate shot on live game.




ak.

[tracker]

This is bubbling along well so I'll throw some more chili into the buff stew as it continues to cook round our little campfire here.

What about backup firearms? The bloke who I'd be most keen to hunt a buffalo with, recently informed me that he wasn't interested in going if we did it that way.

I was a bit gobsmacked for a minute, had images of myself with a gigantic hip rocket , and then it got me thinking... you wouldn't be sneaking in and taking just ANY old shot under those circumstances... not saying that anyone does that, but I'd never stopped to REALLY think about it.

If I was on a paid hunt would the guide let me go off by myself? If I was a guide I'm not sure I'd let some stranger go bumbling off with his longbow... maybe they do?

So you'd have to get permission somewhere on private land I guess, the hair is rising on my neck now, just thinking about it.

Mick.

[Glenn]

Mick they are dangerous game and I suppose you would have to size up your situation and the shot, and if I had to have a rifle back-up I would want to be absloutley sure about the bloke behind me with the gun, he could give you more grief than the buffalo...Glenn...

[ichiban]

well not to get into it but really wouldnt a well placed shot be more important than the poundage within obvious limits? i mean a well placed 60lb shot would be worth more than a poor 75lb shot (plus you would have a buff after you) any1 have any idea how much force is needed to get through the buffs hide (i donno what pundage you would add for ensureing a kill if you hit bone)

in addition in my professional oppinion shooting heavy bows reguarly is not the best way at all to get better at shooting heavy bows, i would recommend a strength progaram and learn good teqnique on a much lighter bow.

[Glenn]

That's right Ichi, poundage of the bow is not important but the bow must be capable of casting a certian weight arrow at a certian speed to get the necessary penetration. The first buffalo that I knoow of that was harvested with a bow was by a bloke called Tony Ninekemper(spelling?) and he shot the buffalo with a 70 recurve, a Ben Pearson Flamehunter I think, but anyway the buffalo was dispatched with a broken arrow 17" long, that was the killing arrow as Tony had run out of arrows, the arrow was broken off the fletch end but it did the job, oboviously that wasn't the only arrow he had shot at the buffalo...Glenn...

[ichiban]

its just interesting to know where people stand on such things as BIG bears (not as big as buffs) in the us have been taken with 45lbs and any1 know what pundage people use to kill elephants? or rhinos? its very interesting that there are thease sort of mental standards each one of us have as to what is acceptable in regards to killing the game and how say an efficiant 60lb bow is no good but a 70lb bow is ok regardless of its efficiancy...because its 70lbs and thats whats "needed" i donno im just thinking out loud...whats the legal minimum to hunt with up north??

[DylanK]

As tradgangs site would say, "One sword sharpens the other", I would say the sword is SCARY sharp by now

Dylan

[Dennis La Varenne]

Clinton,

I have never been particularly interested in taking a buffalo myself, but I tend to agree with Al on this one where he says -

I'm sorry but I really dont subscribe to the thought process of light poundage bows and big game... regardless of how "well designed" a bow is ... or what type of arrow/broadhead combo one uses.

The overbowed argument as it is being raised here is a furphy. A person is only ever overbowed when he/she uses a bow significantly heavier than they normally use without any prior training. If a person trains to use any weight of bow competently and accurately, they cannot by definition, be overbowed.

Following Ed Ashby's study on broadhead lethality, particularly on buffalo, he arrived at a figure of .50 slug ft/lbs of impact energy required to give reliable lethal penetration through the very dense tissue mass of an animal of that size. This penetration presumes an arrow having the properties of his 'ideal' arrow construction and mass. The required impact energy is the minimum required at whatever distance the buffalo is from the hunter. It is not the momentum number at the bow in the way muzzle energy is described among firearms users. It is the amount of momentum at the point where the broadhead hits the animal's hide whether it is at 5 metres or 100 metres.

Based on his work, anyone intending to hunt these animals needs to decide at what distance, + or - a few metres, they are prepared to take the shot. Then you need to do some calculations based on the speed your arrow is travelling at your maximum intended impact distance. So, access to a chronograph is useful - even necessary.

Since his testing was conducted at 20m (I think it was), he established that a minimum arrow mass of something in the region of 650 - 700 grains was necessary together with a draw weight heavy enough to push that arrow fast enough to yield the necessary momentum. With the equipment he used (Howard Hill style longbows usually), to achieve the necessary momentum using the above arrow masses (or heavier), a longbow draw weight of around 70lbs was required.

Bear in mind that this figure was using HIS bows. Other bows will be both faster and slower and adjustments on arrow mass based on terminal speed at the kill distance will need to be made.

Within reason, a bow of somewhat lower draw weight needs a heavier arrow to achieve the required impact energy at terminal distance. This is because of the energy conserving properties of heavy arrows as opposed to lighter arrows - something which he deals with at length in his published work. However, it simply doesn't work in practice to use trad bows significantly lighter than 70lbs and think one can just make it up with ridiculously heavy arrows. There is a rule of proportionality involved here. Below a certain draw-weight, bows just lose all their puff against really heavy arrows.

But, on the other hand, a heavier-than-required bow shooting higher-than-minimum mass arrows yielding above-optimum impact energy gives a significant margin for error where placement may not have been ideal because a higher mass arrow will more reliably produce a significantly longer (and hence more lethal) wound channel.

In summary then, unless Ed Ashby has got it all wrong, the minimum required impact energy (.50 slug ft/lbs) requires us to use arrows with a minimum mass (not less than 650 grains) launched from a bow producing the necessary speed at the point of impact. If you calculate this out and test it using available bows, you will find that the required launch velocity of the arrow requires a bow of very close to 70lbs to achieve it.

So, getting back to Al Kidner's statement as a principle behind the selection of equipment, if you are going to hunt the big animals with huge body masses, you match your equipment to the job then do the required pushups till 70lbs is NOT overbowing you.

Dennis La Varenne

[Glenn]

Dennis that still leaves this argument up in the air though as not all bows are equal in design and performance. If a 60# bow is shooting the same weight arrow at the same speed as a 70# bow they must have the same momentum and in that case bow poundage doesn't mean a thing. And what if the 70# bow is a real slug and plenty of the heavy bows are, I think a lot has to be considered and not just bow poundage, I know it is one part of the equasion but it is not the whole story, if a person is overbowed and can't get the bow back to full draw when needed he will loose a lot of the efficency of the bow and it's performance when needed the most. It's allright to shoot a heavy bow well in the back yard but being out in the field is a different story, that has to be allowed for. I never for one minute suggested that people should use a 55# bow like the bloke from the territory did, I was just saying it has been done but he knew what he was doing, I wouldn't try it myself...Glenn...

[Dennis La Varenne]

Glenn (through Clinton),

Please note in my post above -

Bear in mind that this figure was using HIS bows. Other bows will be both faster and slower and adjustments on arrow mass based on terminal speed at the kill distance will need to be made.

And secondly, where you said -

I know it is one part of the equasion but it is not the whole story, if a person is overbowed and can't get the bow back to full draw when needed he will loose a lot of the efficency of the bow and it's performance when needed the most. It's allright to shoot a heavy bow well in the back yard but being out in the field is a different story, that has to be allowed for. I never for one minute suggested that people should use a 55# bow like the bloke from the territory did, I was just saying it has been done but he knew what he was doing, I wouldn't try it myself...Glenn...

I wrote that -

A person is only ever overbowed when he/she uses a bow significantly heavier than they normally use without any prior training. If a person trains to use any weight of bow competently and accurately, they cannot by definition, be overbowed.

and

So, getting back to Al Kidner's statement as a principle behind the selection of equipment, if you are going to hunt the big animals with huge body masses, you match your equipment to the job then do the required pushups till 70lbs is NOT overbowing you.

Dennis La Varenne

[otis.drum]

hyperthetically

bow1) 70#, arrow 800gr, arrow speed 140fps. (KE lower than bow2)

bow2) 65#, arrow 800gr, arrow speed 150fps. (KE higher than bow1)

...bow2 throws the arrows 10fps faster than bow1, meaning the arrow from bow2 has higher KE at point of impact.

therefore if you chose to use bow1, you are choosing the bow that is less likely/capable of delivering a kill shot.

i think this is what glenn is getting at. not that we should be shooting buffs with low poundage bows.

again...the above is hyperthetical, as to show the lower poundage bow as being more efficient than the high poundage bow.

and i thinks this then says, that just because a bow is 70# or above, doesn't mean it is capable, or the ideal bow for this purpose.

having said all this, i think it's important that higher end poundage bows and heavy arrows are encouraged to increase the percentages of kill shots on these larger game.

perhaps someone could work the KE for the two above bow/arrow combos.

[clinton miller]

i've caused another debate.. maybe i should have asked if my bow shooting 790gr arrows at XXXfps (i don't know how fast they are going) is enough. not is my 70# bow shooting 790gr arrows enough.

i know that someones ethics told on the net doesn't mean much to some poeple but if i'm not confident in my accuracy/consistency with my 69# bow i'm not going to hunt buffulo regardless.

[ichiban]

thats what i finind to be confusing though i dont think that draw weight is all there is to it you know but its probbably the best method short of us all owning labs....

[Dennis La Varenne]

Clinton,
There is no problem with debating issues. That's what Ozbow is about. We all have differing positions and you as the enquirer have to sift through the arguments put forward, look for what is reasonable and probable, do some testing to verify your own position and exclude others to arrive at an outcome. Never feel bad because responders to your enquiry start debating among themselves. That's how things get sorted out and relevant information gets to the surface even if things get a bit hot from time to time. We admin on Ozbow only step in if debating starts getting personal and invective enters the debate. So long as issues are debated on their merits, all is fair game as it should be.

You have done nothing wrong, so don't feel bad about anything.

Otis,
If you go back through Ed Ashby's material, you will find sound argument as to why KE is a very poor indicator of reliable arrow penetration because of its dependence on speed. Momentum is far more reliable because is it orientated more toward arrow mass. It is fairly complicated, but not beyond the ability of the average person to get a handle on.

I understand what Glenn was saying. Not all bows are the same and of course they aren't. But on the whole, based on established data demonstrating a minimum arrow mass delivering a minumum impact momentum at the impact distance, using an ideal arrow design, a pretty heavy bow is required to deliver it and 70lbs is not far wrong if you have no way of establishing speed.

All in all, to be able to handle such a bow, you have to do your pushups and eat your Weeties so you are not overbowed. Short of a compound, you are very unlikely to find a tradbow which will deliver the goods which draws only 60lbs for instance. If you do find such a bow, you have a very rare gem, but no-one in any sensible frame of mind would say that all 60lb bows are capable of the same performance.

The bottom line is that if we are going to be simply practical and responsible in our advice to any intending buffalo bowhunter where the bow is an unknown quantity, we should stick to a sensible draw weight which can be reasonably expected to deliver that minimum impact momentum.

In the end, it is our humane responsibility to the animals we hunt to ensure our equipment is up to the job (and more). If we can establish that a minimum level of equipment is required, it is our total responsibility to match our ability to use it so it is not too much for us under worst case circumstances in the field.

Dave,
You are correct. Poundage is not the WHOLE thing. Ed Ashby's work has given us a reliable means of working out how to arrive at the most effective equipment starting with a minimum necessary impact momentum of 0.50 slug ft/lbs at the impact distance. This momentum figure allows for reliable lethal penetration through rib and scapula if struck.

Working the maths back from that figure, if you know your arrow mass, you will arrive at a certain necessary minimum speed to deliver 0.50 slug ft/lbs at the impact distance. From there, you pick a bow which will deliver that arrow at that minimum speed required. If you have a range of bows to choose from, you choose the one which delivers those properties, whatever its draw weight.

What I am saying is that within a very narrow range of perhaps as little as only + or - 5 lbs, you will find that 70lbs at your draw weight is about right. We all know some bows are a bit faster and others slower. You pick the bow which delivers the goods whatever its speed, but starting with a 70lb bow will be a pretty good start which won't be far wrong.

Later in his material he develops his ideas on what constitutes an 'ideal' arrow. The degree of forward of centre balance, shaft diameter, head shape, point shape, the ratio of shaft diameter to head ferrule diameter, the mechanical advantages of various head shape, single bevel vs double bevel sharpening, etc are all properties of an ideal arrow which add to its efficiency above and beyond its mass and the speed at which it moves.

If he could develop a scoring system based on a total of the ideal qualities which could be factored into momentum equations, the range of maximum draw weights would probably decrease to significantly less than the suggested average of 70 lbs whilst maintaining the minimum impact momentum of 0.50 slug ft/lbs. But that is another question for another time.

Dennis La Varenne

[clinton miller]

i wasn't worried at all it just seems to have become a habit. checkout the buffulo debate on the dangerous game forum on tradgang.
post title- 'buffulo with selfbow and stone points'. a lot of statements saying no, with no field testing supporting evidence. bit like saying a hypothesis is wrong without having done any experiments to prove it.

[kimall]

Clint when you come around mate bring your gear and we can shoot them through the chrony and then you will have some real figures to play with.
Cheers KIM

[longbow steve]

I remembered reading a good article in the Traditional Bowhunter Magazine which was a summary of Ed Ashbys study as it relates to primitive equipment. The article was by Dave Sigurslid pg 50 apr/may 2007.
I will type one paragraph
"Each bow will deliver its own best combination of speed and arrow weight. A 650 grain arrow at 160fps generates 14.83 pound-feet per second of momentum (ARROW WEIGHT IN GRAINS X 2.2 X ARROW SPEED IN FEET PER SECOND ALL DIVIDED BY1543.2). So will a 750 grain arrow going 139 fps. This 14.83 is Ashbys magic number(ie,ASHBYS THRESHOLD) and represents the minimum amount of momentum needed to break nearside buffalo ribs. Shoot your heaviest arrow through the chrono and calculate its momentum using the same formula. Repeat this with successive arrows. My bet is that you will find what I found: the heavier the arrow, the greater the momentum right up to the weight limit of timber arrows. But if your momentum does not reach 14.83, that arrows chance of getting through Bull Elk and Moose Ribs is diminished.
Note in the same article there is a comparison to Asiatic Buffalo and Bull moose that states for both species their is a minimum of 650gr required to breakthrough the near side rib and 950 gr to break the far side rib using 70lb bow and the above formula.
Hope this helps. Steve