Do you think that it is possible to easily swap between a sighted bow and a bow requiring instinctive shooting given that they are two completely different methods of aiming and that you only ever shoot the one bow instincitively?
Griffo
Swapping between Sighted and Instinctive Bows / Styles?
Moderator: Moderators
Griffo,
I might be in the minority but I think you can easily swap styles. I base this on my experience of shooting compound for a lot of years before reverting back to "trad". I used to shoot with a group of folks who shot bow in a gym in the winter months, when it gets dark at 4:00 pm. For s*&ts and giggles my buddy and I would pull our sights off and shoot instinctive with compounds, "bare bow". Groups were pretty good at indoor distances and I found that when I made the switch to recurve it took me about a week to get in the groove without sights. This might have been because we shot a 4 pin sight without a peep sight on the string, and kisser buttons or mechanical releases. More gadget minded people might have a tougher time adjusting.
The "muscle memory" or mechanics of shooting were essentially the same and over the years I think the brain memorized what a 20, 30, or 40 yrd sight picture looked like, with or without sights. Also because we shot with fingers the "feel" was the same.
Any how, there's my $0.02 worth of observation.
Side note: a lot of folks claim that your draw length decreases when you switch from compound to trad- mine never did, so that might have helped as well.
RC
I might be in the minority but I think you can easily swap styles. I base this on my experience of shooting compound for a lot of years before reverting back to "trad". I used to shoot with a group of folks who shot bow in a gym in the winter months, when it gets dark at 4:00 pm. For s*&ts and giggles my buddy and I would pull our sights off and shoot instinctive with compounds, "bare bow". Groups were pretty good at indoor distances and I found that when I made the switch to recurve it took me about a week to get in the groove without sights. This might have been because we shot a 4 pin sight without a peep sight on the string, and kisser buttons or mechanical releases. More gadget minded people might have a tougher time adjusting.
The "muscle memory" or mechanics of shooting were essentially the same and over the years I think the brain memorized what a 20, 30, or 40 yrd sight picture looked like, with or without sights. Also because we shot with fingers the "feel" was the same.
Any how, there's my $0.02 worth of observation.
Side note: a lot of folks claim that your draw length decreases when you switch from compound to trad- mine never did, so that might have helped as well.
RC
That which doesn't kill me better run for cover...
Yes
I suppose you probably can swap from bow to bow and hit things but the real test is when the shiiiiite hits the fan and a big boar breaks cover and comes whistling up the creek bank in your direction and you miss the oppurtunity because you had to think about it!!! thats when you may find it don't work. I believe in that situation it almost becomes a reaction more so than instictive. I honestly cant remember saying to myself back to the lips,pick a spot, concentrate ,release, good follow through.
I suppose you probably can swap from bow to bow and hit things but the real test is when the shiiiiite hits the fan and a big boar breaks cover and comes whistling up the creek bank in your direction and you miss the oppurtunity because you had to think about it!!! thats when you may find it don't work. I believe in that situation it almost becomes a reaction more so than instictive. I honestly cant remember saying to myself back to the lips,pick a spot, concentrate ,release, good follow through.
TOTALLY ROOTED AND STILL HUNTING
-
Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
Strowy,I honestly cant remember saying to myself back to the lips,pick a spot, concentrate ,release, good follow through.
That's because you didn't say it - you were to busy screamin and climbing a tree all the while Nige was laughin at ya!
Griffo,
It most certainly can be done. I don't think that it would be very easy at first. I really think you would have to put the compound away for a bit and concentrate on your instinctive shooting so your brain can sort out your hand eye coordination.
It would seem Tuffcity may have shot his recurve in a similar manner to his compound. I believe you shoot with release aid etc which is different but may also be an advantage - let me explain what I mean by that if I can.
This will be conjecture on my part as I don't how how you shoot your compound or trad gear. With the compound you stand upright and draw with the release, anchor, get the sight on target and then pull some kind of trigger once you are ready.
I shoot with my bows canted and lean into the bow some, as a majority of trad shooters seem to do. Shooting instinctive this way you do your aiming while you are drawing and once you get to full draw you are ready to release immediately. If you do this it will be a completely different style to when shooting your compound.
Being two completely different styles may help you to adjust more easily when changing from one bow to the other. I still firmly believe that it will take you a long time to become proficient with your trad gear and will necessitate putting the compound aside for awhile.
Also don't expect to be able to shoot accurately with your trad gear immediately as it does take time. I also think you will find your effective shooting distance will be reduced somewhat with the trad gear.
Strowy (TRASH) also made a good point about what can happen on the spur of the moment when hunting (I worded that a little different to you Strowy).
I remember about 18 months ago I was hunting out at Boulia with the TRASH crew and I shot an arra at a nice boar and instinctively reached for another as I normally do. I was groping over my left shoulder (I'm left handed) trying to find another arra but there was none there. I was wearing a Cat Quiver instead of my normal back quiver that I had been using for around 20 years. Had it been a case of needing that second arra in a hurry I would have been in trouble.
Anyway hope this may have helped answer your question and not confused the issue further.
Jeff
-
Griffo
This question was based on discussions in another thread that have resurfaced somewhat here. It is repeatedly said that you need to shoot one and only one style of bow to become proficient at it.
With regards to instinctive vs sighted bows I tend to disagree and I was curious to find out other's thoughts before posting my own, so thanks fellas I appreciate your input.
Why do I disagree?
The act of shooting a bow with sights is a "manual" one. That is, you mentally control the bow with the conscious mind. You see the sight picture and you bring the pin to be in line with what you want to hit consciously.
Instinctive shooting however (and this is how I started and still shoot any barebow or tradbow {using the cantered style in the 'traditional' vein) is an automatic or instinctive function that is controlled by the subconscious mind. This is lends weight to why instinctive shooters need to do regular practise to remain accurate. They need to keep their 'mind's eye' (subconscious) in tune with the trajectory of their arrow and also tells us why when we "think" about it, we stuff it up when shooting instinctively. Why?... because we have crossed from the subconscious to the consciuos mind and our conscious mind is not practised at shooting (when we do most of our practise/shooting as truely instinctive).
An arrow's trajectory changes from bow to bow. Our 'mind's eye' takes a lot longer to adapt and this explains why most of us cannot chop and change from one barebow to another so the saying is correct with reference to changing from one BAREBOW to another. It takes approximately 11000 repetitions of a physical action for it to become a 'reflex'. So we cannot expect to be able to shoot proficiently with a different bow (instinctively) after only a week or so practise.
However...
When we go from sighted to instinctive we are going from one form of aiming to a completely different form of aiming and this I believe is why it is possible to change from a sighted bow to an unsighted (instinctive) bow and be able to shoot both at a high standard, IF, practise is regular with both forms of bow.
Think of the comparison this way...shooting a sighted bow is mentally the same as shooting a rifle. Does shooting a bow instinctively impare your ability the shoot a rifle? No, because mentally the aiming process is completely different, and there in, I believe lies the key.
Just my 2 bob worth,
Griffo
With regards to instinctive vs sighted bows I tend to disagree and I was curious to find out other's thoughts before posting my own, so thanks fellas I appreciate your input.
Why do I disagree?
The act of shooting a bow with sights is a "manual" one. That is, you mentally control the bow with the conscious mind. You see the sight picture and you bring the pin to be in line with what you want to hit consciously.
Instinctive shooting however (and this is how I started and still shoot any barebow or tradbow {using the cantered style in the 'traditional' vein) is an automatic or instinctive function that is controlled by the subconscious mind. This is lends weight to why instinctive shooters need to do regular practise to remain accurate. They need to keep their 'mind's eye' (subconscious) in tune with the trajectory of their arrow and also tells us why when we "think" about it, we stuff it up when shooting instinctively. Why?... because we have crossed from the subconscious to the consciuos mind and our conscious mind is not practised at shooting (when we do most of our practise/shooting as truely instinctive).
An arrow's trajectory changes from bow to bow. Our 'mind's eye' takes a lot longer to adapt and this explains why most of us cannot chop and change from one barebow to another so the saying is correct with reference to changing from one BAREBOW to another. It takes approximately 11000 repetitions of a physical action for it to become a 'reflex'. So we cannot expect to be able to shoot proficiently with a different bow (instinctively) after only a week or so practise.
However...
When we go from sighted to instinctive we are going from one form of aiming to a completely different form of aiming and this I believe is why it is possible to change from a sighted bow to an unsighted (instinctive) bow and be able to shoot both at a high standard, IF, practise is regular with both forms of bow.
Think of the comparison this way...shooting a sighted bow is mentally the same as shooting a rifle. Does shooting a bow instinctively impare your ability the shoot a rifle? No, because mentally the aiming process is completely different, and there in, I believe lies the key.
Just my 2 bob worth,
Griffo
-
Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
Griffo,
I understand what you are saying and my previous post kinda went along those lines. However there are a couple of things I don't quite go along with. You went from trad to sighted compound which is vastly different from doing the opposite.
For a person changing from sighted compound to shooting trad instinctive, there is a big difference because they must learn the whole instinctive process - hand eye coordination - from scratch. This takes a lot of time and for one to become truely proficient at it he/she should only shoot the one kind of bow IMO.
Once a person becomes a proficient instinctive shooter he may then go back to shooting the two kinds of bows. As you say, regular practise with both kinds of bow is then necessary if one wants to continue to shoot both.
I am one of those people who doesn't find a big difference when changing from one trad bow to another. Changing from say a 65# longbow to a 50# one, what is the difference? Often there isn't a huge amount of difference due to the arrow weight also dropping accordingly. This means that the trajectory isn't that much different. I find any difference in trajectory is compensated for very quickly.
If changing from longbow to centre shot recurve, or even to a selfbow shot off the hand, it only takes a short time for the brain to automaticlly adjust for the left/right difference.
Maybe this is the case with me because I have only ever shot a bow instinctively I don't know. I will add that I have friends who only shoot instinctively who also have little trouble adjusting from one bow to another.
I think the single biggest problem why more people don't shoot trad equipment is that they aren't willing to put in the time that is necessary to learn to shoot it correctly. There is no doubt that it does take considerable effort for a person to learn to shoot trad/instinctive proficiently.
As Erron said - Good topic.
Jeff
I understand what you are saying and my previous post kinda went along those lines. However there are a couple of things I don't quite go along with. You went from trad to sighted compound which is vastly different from doing the opposite.
For a person changing from sighted compound to shooting trad instinctive, there is a big difference because they must learn the whole instinctive process - hand eye coordination - from scratch. This takes a lot of time and for one to become truely proficient at it he/she should only shoot the one kind of bow IMO.
Once a person becomes a proficient instinctive shooter he may then go back to shooting the two kinds of bows. As you say, regular practise with both kinds of bow is then necessary if one wants to continue to shoot both.
I am one of those people who doesn't find a big difference when changing from one trad bow to another. Changing from say a 65# longbow to a 50# one, what is the difference? Often there isn't a huge amount of difference due to the arrow weight also dropping accordingly. This means that the trajectory isn't that much different. I find any difference in trajectory is compensated for very quickly.
If changing from longbow to centre shot recurve, or even to a selfbow shot off the hand, it only takes a short time for the brain to automaticlly adjust for the left/right difference.
Maybe this is the case with me because I have only ever shot a bow instinctively I don't know. I will add that I have friends who only shoot instinctively who also have little trouble adjusting from one bow to another.
I think the single biggest problem why more people don't shoot trad equipment is that they aren't willing to put in the time that is necessary to learn to shoot it correctly. There is no doubt that it does take considerable effort for a person to learn to shoot trad/instinctive proficiently.
As Erron said - Good topic.
Jeff
-
Griffo
True, going from only ever having shot sighted bows to instinctive would be hard. This process though, I believe would be similar to teaching someone to throw a tennis ball (this is exactly the analogy I use when teaching a new comer how to shoot instinctively). And being a Physical Education teacher I know very well how to teach a beginner how to throw a ball 
Do you get behind the hand holding the ball and line it up with your target before you throw it? No. You just look at what you want to hit and throw the ball. Same with shooting instinctively. You just point the bow at what you want to hit, don't think about it, and with some practise, your brain does the rest.! Unbelievable. When you point that out to most people, they look at instinctive shooting in a whole new light.
I agree that when first learning to shoot instinctively you should only practise with the one bow and practise regularly. When mastered however, as I said, I don't think it's too hard to change from one to the other as long as the practise is maintained.
IMO all newcomers should learn to shoot instinctively before moving to a sighted bow. I believe it's like learning to crawl before you can walk. I think it gives the best foundation upon which to build your shooting style and instills an ethic of regular practise, something that should not be let go be the wayside regardless of the choice of bow.
I have seen many an example of folks who can change from barebow to barebow no worries and like you Jeff, these people were well practised in the art of instinctive shooting. The best and most amazing archer/hunter I ever saw do this was Allan Podlick. That bloke can pick up your bow and after one sighter shot, shoot it better than you. Truly unbelievable
I was mostly referring changing from a barebow compound to a trad bow...that imo should not be chopped and changed...but from trad bow to trad bow...not such a big change and therefore the brain doesn't need to adjust to such a mammoth alteration in arrow trajectory.
I agree again Jeff, that traddies and indeed any hunter shooting barebow has an obligation to undertake regular practise to remain proficient. I guess in this day of longer work hours and limited free time, the luxuary of a sighted bow has become very attractive to a lot of people. I for one can understand that.
Yep...good topic...thanks.
Griffo
Do you get behind the hand holding the ball and line it up with your target before you throw it? No. You just look at what you want to hit and throw the ball. Same with shooting instinctively. You just point the bow at what you want to hit, don't think about it, and with some practise, your brain does the rest.! Unbelievable. When you point that out to most people, they look at instinctive shooting in a whole new light.
I agree that when first learning to shoot instinctively you should only practise with the one bow and practise regularly. When mastered however, as I said, I don't think it's too hard to change from one to the other as long as the practise is maintained.
IMO all newcomers should learn to shoot instinctively before moving to a sighted bow. I believe it's like learning to crawl before you can walk. I think it gives the best foundation upon which to build your shooting style and instills an ethic of regular practise, something that should not be let go be the wayside regardless of the choice of bow.
I have seen many an example of folks who can change from barebow to barebow no worries and like you Jeff, these people were well practised in the art of instinctive shooting. The best and most amazing archer/hunter I ever saw do this was Allan Podlick. That bloke can pick up your bow and after one sighter shot, shoot it better than you. Truly unbelievable
I was mostly referring changing from a barebow compound to a trad bow...that imo should not be chopped and changed...but from trad bow to trad bow...not such a big change and therefore the brain doesn't need to adjust to such a mammoth alteration in arrow trajectory.
I agree again Jeff, that traddies and indeed any hunter shooting barebow has an obligation to undertake regular practise to remain proficient. I guess in this day of longer work hours and limited free time, the luxuary of a sighted bow has become very attractive to a lot of people. I for one can understand that.
Yep...good topic...thanks.
Griffo
-
Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
Griffo,
Yeah Pod is well known for his shooting and shooting heavy bows at that. I think if I remember correctly I made him an 80# longbow many years ago. His shooting style sorta goes against what proper form is supposed to be also.
At a Longbow Muster once he came up to me and said "I saw you shooting and thought it was me."
I have seen a video of Fred Bear shooting and he shot the same as us - that should be we shoot the same as he did! Fred Bear called it controlled snap shooting and I think that pretty much describes it. Maybe not so called correct form but it works - for us anyway.
Jeff
Yeah Pod is well known for his shooting and shooting heavy bows at that. I think if I remember correctly I made him an 80# longbow many years ago. His shooting style sorta goes against what proper form is supposed to be also.
At a Longbow Muster once he came up to me and said "I saw you shooting and thought it was me."
I have seen a video of Fred Bear shooting and he shot the same as us - that should be we shoot the same as he did! Fred Bear called it controlled snap shooting and I think that pretty much describes it. Maybe not so called correct form but it works - for us anyway.
Jeff
-
doninkaliphornistan
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:47 pm
- Location: high in the desert of southern kaliphornistan
u should be able to with a minimum of "hassle"...
i have, and occaisonally shoot "wheels" with sights and mechanical release, but i normally shoot recurves and longbows without sights as my preferred style and equipment.
they are, in my opinion and experience, "worlds apart" in their execution.
i have, and occaisonally shoot "wheels" with sights and mechanical release, but i normally shoot recurves and longbows without sights as my preferred style and equipment.
they are, in my opinion and experience, "worlds apart" in their execution.
when in doubt, run in circles and scream and shout ...