Outdoors and snakes

[Siege]

Thought I'd post this up, was going to be a magazine article maybe but no one got back to me, so I thought I would post this. Please free toask any questions

Snake! A five letter word for 95% of Australians that automatically brings a level of fear, alertness, uneasiness and most of all the unknown. I am new to Archery, but what I am not new to is snakes. I have spent years teaching, researching and writing about them. I had in my collection at one point over 50 reptiles that I studied in captivity and then applied this knowledge in the field to learn more about wild reptiles, but most of all snakes.
People do not realize in this country how close they actually come to crossing paths with a snake. Just outside of the Melbourne CBD roughly 15km you will find a very large population of Tiger Snakes that use the Yarra as their source of food. People having picnics and family days out are actually enjoying time right next to snakes and they don’t even know it.
The thing is snakes do not need to be feared, they need to be respected. The most common cause of snakebite among the public is because somebody thinks it is a good idea to go and kill the snake, doing this you are getting close enough to enter their world. A snake the is 1m long if upset and angry and reach you at four meters, they do have the ability to jump out toward the threat.

Firstly you need to know how snakes operate; they have very poor eyesight, so a big blur moving about in front of them means fear so they lash out in protection not in anger. Sure you hear stories about how a snake chased me, or a snake ambushed me, I can tell you this is all false, and I have probably worked with snakes in the worst possible conditions any snake catcher could, the Black Saturday bushfires, the flames were damn hot, and the fire fighters trying to control the blaze offered water, a natural safe point in the bush. Under these conditions I saw snakes at their worse, and no one working with me was injured from snakes or the flames, because of one reason, we know to respect them.
If you see a snake in the bush what do you do? That is the most common question I get asked. First thing you need to is freeze, keep a cool head and make sure all movement is slow and not threatening to the snake. Slowly back away and when at a safe distance of about 12-15 feet slowly turn around and walk away. This way no harm comes to you and no harm comes to the snake. I should also mention that the killing of snakes in the wild is an offense and the departments have been cracking down as some species are getting closer to dangerous numbers in the bush.
If you happened to be bitten again you need to keep calm. I carry with me at all times a 15cm stretch bandage that stretches to 4m, this is long enough to cover any adult man’s leg. Venom doesn’t go straight into your blood supply like some people believe. It travels through the lymphatic system until it reaches the nearest artery and then it enters the blood supply. There are snakes out there that have the venom that can kill 500,000 adult rats from one drop, which is equivalent to 100 adult men.
Once bitten by a snake you wrap firmly around the bite site and continue it up the limb until you can go no further. A proper and successful dressing of the bite can mean adding hours to your life and the chance to reach help as oppose to minutes with some species if you are not prepared. It is important that you keep the patient as still as possible, if the bite is to the leg then try to not walk on the leg, elevated heart rate can mean the venom travels faster. In a remote situation or if you are by yourself then you have no choice. Never ever try to catch the snake so you can show the hospital and help them identify the snake, almost all hospitals wouldn’t have a clue what sort of snake you have got in the bag, and it could mean injuring someone else and possibly taking more bites yourself.
Where possible always send someone for help unless you are in very remote areas, then you have to do what you have too. Always wrap the bite, some snakes can with hold venom, but you have no way of knowing this, so treat every single bite as deadly, of course in some states you may encounter non venomous snakes, but can you tell the difference? If not, even if there is a 1% chance you could be wrong, treat the bite as lethal. Difference between a python bite and a venomous snake bite is the venomous snake leaves usually two puncture marks, sometimes more teeth can hit the skin which can make this hard to identify to the untrained person. Python bites look a bit like ours with a semi circle pattern from the teeth.
Never ever try to suck the venom out, it doesn’t work, and you run the risk of adding your fried to the patient list as well. If you have no bandage you can use a then use your belt above the bite site to reduce the flow of blood, never do it tight enough that your arm turns black and drops off. Sometimes you may need to loosen slightly and then re-tighten, but for the sake of fifteen dollars go to the chemist and make sure the bandage is the first thing you take when you plan a trip, even to walk a dog, because snakes can hit at anytime during the year. Snakes in Australia do not hibernate, if they get a nice warm winters day they will come out to bask, this is called brumation.
When you arrive at the hospital they have a kit that can identify the type of bite you have received, this is the reason you never catch the snake.

Australia is home to some of the deadliest snakes on the planet. We have 7 in the top ten with the first three belonging to us. If you take number one on the list, the Inland Taipan a bit from this snake can kill a person in less than two minutes. This is why the bandage needs to be with you at all times.
In Victoria you are most likely to encounter the Tiger snake, while the venom isn’t as bad as some of the other snakes; it’s the neuro-toxin that enters the brain causing bleeds that eventually kill you that does the trick. Some people who have kept tiger snakes in captivity have tried to lay down in bed after a bite and sleep the venom off, their head touching the pillow and falling just slightly too hard has caused them to bleed out and die from the bite.
In N.S.W you are likely to encounter the death adder, the coastal Taipan or the brown snake. While the Brown snake does occur in Victoria, the areas are fewer with places like the little desert and big desert being home to this bad boy. With Brown snakes the term bad boy brown fits the description, they never calm down and they always stand their ground, move right away and don’t give them a chance to strike out. They are number two on the list of deadly snakes, and make no mistake they will kill you within minutes.
The coastal Taipan is a nasty snake as well and comes in at number three. The coastal Taipan has been known to ‘chase’ people, the stories are a bit farfetched but they will lash out and ask questions later.
The death adder causes a lot of bites per year, it is an ambush predator and most people get bitten as they haven’t seen this snake. This is why in the bush or around the neighbourhood you step up on to the log, and then step away from the log, never ever step over a log as that is where snakes love to live, no matter where in Australia you live.
QLD is a bit of a different story, they get the largest variety of snakes as they have such a different climate from one corner of QLD to the other. They also get colubrids which people usually see in trees, giving them the name tree snake. These are described as non-venomous, just googling on Wikipedia they are listed as non-venomous, this is actually false, they have a small venom that for most people will result in a light headache or a bit of dizziness, they do not have a great system for injecting venom as their fangs are at the back of the mouth and not the front. Two years ago an experienced snake catcher got bitten by one of these tree snakes and died as he had an allergic reaction to the venom. Always play it safe and apply first aid bandages to the bite, chances are you are not in any danger, but do you want to risk your life on a maybe?
The Inland Taipan lives on the border of N.T and QLD, the area is so remote that the snake hardly ever sees man, and the species seems to have a relaxed feeling, it is believed that this is because it has not lived near populated areas and hasn’t been hunted or killed, but just like people, some snakes are nice and some snakes are complete... well you know!

The first recorded snake bite in Australia came from a sailor who arrived on the First Fleet. He was out collecting wood when he was bitten by what is believed to be a tiger snake. He was given a shot of rum, and a pack of smokes and a pat on the back and a good luck handshake, he never made it to morning. England doesn’t have many snakes, and what they do have are not venomous, so they knew no better, but hopefully now you do, get a bandage, keep your distance and most of all keep safe, get home to your families in one piece. I have carried my bandage for years and never once had to use it, but knowing I have it makes field work that little bit safer when you go into remote areas and the nearest hospital is hours away.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Good advice mate and I carry a couple of bandages with me when I am out bush. I don't care what anyone says I hate the things.

Jeff

[kerry]

This is very timely, my 13 year old Staffie had a close encounter with a black snake yesterday arvo. , as she is stone deaf i had no hope of calling her off,so had to leave them sort it out, needless to say my dog won the battle but it's only a matter of time till she lucks out. thanx for the thread Siege most informative.

[Roadie]

Dosn't England have a Viper. Ireland does'nt have them as St Patrick was supposed to have got rid of them. (snakes) that is.
Many of you know about my encounter with a Death Adder. Snakes have a purpose. Not to sure what it is.
Lets just say around me they have a limted life span. Wasn't it a snake (serpent) that caused a problem in the Garden of Eden. Cheers Roadie.

[Sinners121]

very informative post. however i think the word angry is a bit misleading. snakes dont have that emotion and would much rather run than bite.

[hazard]

The thing is snakes do not need to be feared, they need to be respected. The most common cause of snakebite among the public is because somebody thinks it is a good idea to go and kill the snake, doing this you are getting close enough to enter their world. A snake the is 1m long if upset and angry and reach you at four meters, they do have the ability to jump out toward the threat.

Couldn't agree more I admire the beauty of these creatures though I do understand peoples fear I believe it is for the wrong reasons.

Hazard

[Stickbow Hunter]

though I do understand peoples fear I believe it is for the wrong reasons.

The fact is venomous snakes are present when I am out hunting and I could walk into one anytime, in fact I have had a big Mulga strike at me. Knowing that if they bite me I could die or at best become very ill is certainly reason enough for me to fear them. As I said I hate the things.

I fear crocs as well and when I have hunted the NT swamps I have been very cautious of where I go as they can be anywhere and you have to be careful. I note the locals do likewise.

The simple fact is if something can kill me than I fear it and will take precautions to hopefully avoid that happening.

Jeff

[Siege]

Anger - I understand where you are coming from and the term angry, I have seen some really bad brown snakes and coastal taipans, in and out of captivity and there is really no other word to describe it. They rear up long before you even know they are there and lash out at everything. I think anger and fear are really close together and in most cases it's fear with wild animals, but some brown snakes, ones in captivity and have been there for years and years you would have to say it's anger.

England and snakes - England is pretty tame when it comes to snakes, things like garter snakes are common, most snakes you encounter over there will not kill you unless you have an allergy. I have known people who have come from the UK and they talk about being kids and going and catching these snakes, getting bitten and having no effect. At least in part we are a young country, only 200 years old, the native australians did eat snakes, but they also believed snakes had powers etc, like the rainbow serpent which is actually a water python and is non lethal.

The biggest thing with aussie snakes is why are they so deadly, why does a snake need to be able to kill 100 adult men with only one drop of venom. theory is white man fears snakes, and as we have only been here since 1788 they were allowed to evolve freely, unlike other parts of the world.

The other thing to remember with snake bite is not all bites will kill you, but the venom can cause issues for years after, loss of limbs, rotting skin. There has never been a death recorded from a red bellied black snake, but there have been people who claim that each year the pain from the bite comes back, reason is nerve endings open and close, and they can sit that way for months even years, so if venom is trapped between the nerves then the pain can come back at a later date when the nerve opens again.

Bites can cause problems for years after, better to avoid at all costs. Remember most bites when hunting occur km's and km's away from the nearest hospital. Knowing what to do can mean the difference between living and the grave. It also doesn't hurt to ring around and see which hospitals carry anti-venom, sometimes you get transferred to a different hospital. Once bitten a little timer starts, depending on the species depends on how long you have. Oh and don't forget the pain, just because you have bandages on straight away doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, most venom's are eating away at muscle and tissue and anything else that it comes into contact with.

I haven't even started on spiders yet either

[Slackshot]

Quote (The biggest thing with aussie snakes is why are they so deadly, why does a snake need to be able to kill 100 adult men with only one drop of venom. theory is white man fears snakes, and as we have only been here since 1788 they were allowed to evolve freely, unlike other parts of the world.) unquote.. I would really like to see a scientific backup for that Siege, otherwise good post

[Roadie]

Yes so would I Gary, as I find some of the info a little of track. Cheers Roadie.

[GrahameA]

Hi Grant (and Gary).

Yes so would I Gary, as I find some of the info a little of track. Cheers Roadie.

You are just not a believer and want things backed up with the odd reference and a bit of factual knowledge. Then again this has zero credibility with me.

England doesn’t have many snakes, and what they do have are not venomous....

Apparently the UK Forestry Commission does not agree. The adder is the only venomous snake native to Britain. http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/adder

[Siege]

my information is first hand, it comes from years of experience in the field, in captivity, working with the venom lab at melbourne uni, working and being a part of the Victorian herpetological society. Answering hundreds of questions each year, and being published a number of times.

This was designed to warn people and prepare people about the dangers faced with snakes in the wild. If you don't want to believe it then don't, go get bitten and I will be there to say I told you so.

The information above is basic information that anyone doing the things I did knows, I really can't be bothered justifying myself on every little point. Email the VHS or the Venom Lab, ask them the things I did. Contact the DSE and ask them about the field reports I gave them on different species in different locations.

[Roadie]

Do you really think that we are All that stupid.
Most of the Folks I deal with no that All snakes are Dangerous, even the Non venomous one's can give you grief, by wrapping themselves around you or a loved one. Even a bite from a non venomous can cause you anx.
As I have spent most of my Life in the Bush, working & playing, Some of my friends call me an experiencd Bushman. I along with most of the people on this site who are Hunters, or bushwalkers soon devellop a Healthy attitude towards anything venomous, either on land or water.
Even so, sometimes we let our guard down and we get Bitten. So none of us need to be told, " I TOLD YOU SO". we get that from our wives and or partner.
When I see or read something that dosn't ring quite true, I question it. That is why I always ask for clarifiction.
And Yes Grahame I do agree Totally with your PM. Cheers Roadie.

PS The Desert Death Adder, which got me, is called " Mythunda" by the Aborigines who have a great fear of it. We tend to call it
"Oh my God|||*&%$:.
And do you know what snake whose venom has a devastating effect on other venomous snakes, but curiously is unaffected by the venom of other snakes. Chers All

[Bent Stick]

It's an iinteresting read, as for whether or not there is in fact a Banzai snake etc who knows, should we have a very very healthy respect for them "too bl&&^dy right" understanding patterns in different environments has an iinfinite number of possiblilities, best thing to do avoid the things. I think no matter how much research you do they are animals and do in fact havea brain, they adapt and evolve. Just when you think you got em sussed they do something different. Avoid em where you can.

A little food for thought two weeks ago i got to see an aggressive snake chase a few blokes around for about 15 minutes for a bout 150 metres, it wasn't giving up and if it thought there was a bloke behind that truck wheel it wnt like the clappers, it's the most feared snake around these parts that i am in currently "the black mamba" and boy can it move, that sucker had some ACME racing rockets up it's @#$ss. I am told these fella's have a bit of an attitide and waht i saw is not uncommon, maybe it's just the heat as I am sweating my bum off.

On a lighter note last "can't remember which night they are all the same when your missing the Gladdy Muster" I was walking back from the mess to my humble airconditioned abode and what i thought was a reflection off a bit of water in the gravel (wet season here in the jungle) when i was three metres from it on my left it moved and it was big, I farted, I jumped, I did the funky chicken backwards at a rate i didnlt beleive I was capable of, I had witnessed the mamba a week before and though "oh great now I'm %^&*Ed" It didn't chase but turned off into someone front garden "well less bushy bit" and my heart hiccuped coughed spluttered and finally restarted and I went on my merry way, albeit a little shakily.

Anyway that's about as constructive as i get, everyone should be up to date with snake bite treatment in Oz sometimes they are just not where you expect em to be and you have to deal with it.

Yowie has a good story or two if he feels like posting at some stage.

[Slackshot]

Takes a long time to develop or not develope sorry seige old mate but i cant really understand the reasoning behind your theory and yes i will look into that theory but untill now i will go with the scientfic fact Snake venom is highly modified saliva.[1] The venom is part of a whole: the apparatus, which is made up of venom glands that synthesize venom; and an injection system, consisting of modified fangs with which to make the venom penetrate into a prey item or a possible threat or predator.[2] The glands which secrete the zootoxins are a modification of the parotid salivary gland of other vertebrates, and are usually situated on each side of the head below and behind the eye, encapsulated in a muscular sheath. The glands have large alveoli in which the synthesized venom is stored before being conveyed by a duct to the base of channeled or tubular fangs, through which it is ejected. Venoms contain more than 20 different compounds, mostly proteins and polypeptides.[3][4] Snake venom has two main functions: first, the immobilization of prey and second, the digestion of prey. It is a complex mixture of proteins, enzymes, and various other substances. The proteins are responsible for the toxic and lethal effect of the venom[2] and its function is to immobilize prey,[5] enzymes play an important role in the digestion of prey,[4] and various other substances are responsible for important but non-lethal biological effects.[2] Some of the proteins in snake venom are very particular in their effects on various biological functions including blood coagulation, blood pressure regulation, transmission of the nervous or muscular impulse and have turned out to be pharmacological or diagnostic tools or even useful drugs.[2]
Evolution

The presence of enzymes in snake venom was once believed to be an adaptation to assist digestion. However, studies of the western diamondback rattlesnake, a snake with highly proteolytic venom, show that venom has no impact on the time required for food to pass through the gut. More research is needed to determine the selective pressures resulting in evolution of venom and venom delivery mechanisms.[10]

[Slackshot]

Bent stick
Black mamba 17 kms an hr .......................................................fast snake

[Bent Stick]

Yeah Slack they are pretty quick, I now understand why the locals fear them; fast and I don't know if it happens all the time but the one i witnessed just came out of the grass through the fence and had the boys running, they were putting the big ones in. I donlt want to come across one at all if i can help it. Oh forgot in the previous post the snake was a cobra, don't know which one but very big, lot's of spiutting cobra's around here but if he spat at me i didn't know about it Iwas arms and legs flapping backwards faster than my sandles were meant to go.

[Slackshot]

Bent stick

[Slackshot]

But wait there is more.
It has been suggested that snakes evolved the mechanisms necessary for venom formation and delivery sometime during the Miocene epoch.[18] During the mid-Tertiary, most snakes were large ambush predators belonging to the superfamily Henophidia, which use constriction to kill their prey. As open grasslands replaced forested areas in parts of the world, some snake families evolved to become smaller and thus more agile. However, subduing and killing prey became more difficult for the smaller snakes, leading to the evolution of snake venom.[18] Other research on Toxicofera, a hypothetical clade thought to be ancestral to most living reptiles, suggests an earlier time frame for the evolution of snake venom, possibly to the order of tens of millions of years, during the Late CretaceousIt has been suggested that snakes evolved the mechanisms necessary for venom formation and delivery sometime during the Miocene epoch.[18] During the mid-Tertiary, most snakes were large ambush predators belonging to the superfamily Henophidia, which use constriction to kill their prey. As open grasslands replaced forested areas in parts of the world, some snake families evolved to become smaller and thus more agile. However, subduing and killing prey became more difficult for the smaller snakes, leading to the evolution of snake venom.[18] Other research on Toxicofera, a hypothetical clade thought to be ancestral to most living reptiles, suggests an earlier time frame for the evolution of sIt has been suggested that snakes evolved the mechanisms necessary for venom formation and delivery sometime during the Miocene epoch.[18] During the mid-Tertiary, most snakes were large ambush predators belonging to the superfamily Henophidia, which use constriction to kill their prey. As open grasslands replaced forested areas in parts of the world, some snake families evolved to become smaller and thus more agile. However, subduing and killing prey became more difficult for the smaller snakes, leading to the evolution of snake venom.[18] Other research on Toxicofera, a hypothetical clade thought to be ancestral to most living reptiles, suggests an earlier time frame for the evolution of snake venom, possibly to the order of tens of millions of years, during the Late Cretaceousnake venom, possibly to the order of tens of millions of years, during the Late CretaceousIt has been suggested that snakes evolved the mechanisms necessary for venom formation and delivery sometime during the Miocene epoch.[18] During the mid-Tertiary, most snakes were large ambush predators belonging to the superfamily Henophidia, which use constriction to kill their prey. As open grasslands replaced forested areas in parts of the world, some snake families evolved to become smaller and thus more agile. However, subduing and killing prey became more difficult for the smaller snakes, leading to the evolution of snake venom.[18] Other research on Toxicofera, a hypothetical clade thought to be ancestral to most living reptiles, suggests an earlier time frame for the evolution of snake venom, possibly to the order of tens of millions of years, during the Late Cretaceous

[Siege]

Slackshot, not sure why you are talking about what venom is, unless I am totally wrong I didn't go into exactly what venom is, the original post was designed to warn people about snakes, it was meant to go to an article which isn't going ahead now. If you want to break everything down and discuss everything then that is fine too.

I did a lot of work on venom and we put up a lot of paperwork as I was looking at injecting myself with venom until I became immune. The victorian government would not allow it, although it had been done before.

As for the rattlesnake research, it is being debated if that research applies to all reptiles or just certain groups. What was interesting though is they stopped feeding the rattlesnakes for one experiment and the snake continued to grow even though they were starved for two years. Their body took what it needed out of bones, skin, muscle and so on so that it could keep growing. There is a whole thesis written about this research I believe on the texas venom lab's website, or I do have a copy somewhere as it was emailed to me by the toxicologist I was working with.

Roadie - 3000 people are bitten by snakes each year. 40 have died since 1980. World wide 100,000 people are bitten, and most die as they live in poorer countries where things like anti-venom are not available to people who can't afford it. Most people I have encountered at things like reptile meetings and expos are going to know about snakes. People I meet at things like the royal melbourne show do not, and they are interested in the do's and do not's. I stated twice now, that the information was basic, it was designed to be basic. If you write a whole lot of scientific info people don't take it in so that is why I kept it basic. I am glad that you are the best outdoors-men to ever live and need not know about snakes, good for you. People who live near snakes, are going to no more about them. In mildura you are going to get more snakes then a inner melbourne suburb, although in saying that on average a snake catcher gets called to roughly 300 jobs a year, this has been consistent with the three snake catcher's I know, and this has been the way it has been for decades. Given that lizards like blue tongues are often what people think is a snake.

Being that your the 'best' go pick one up and disregard everything I said, as you know it all. Again info was meant to be basic, as that is what the I asked to write.

Everything else I will keep to myself for now, thank you to those who contacted me.

[Bent Stick]

Boy's play nice and no tanty's

You can never know too much about thinigs with the potential to kill you, and anyone with no idea will appreciate any info the posters put up.

But Seige seriously, rattlesnake research ini Mexico "I mean Melbourne" the snake problem must be understated mate cos it's like a state sport selling up jumping the border to get away from em.

[Siege]

Rattlesnake research in melbourne?? Sorry if I was unclear, that is being done overseas in America.

At the moment Australia research facilities are doing a lot of work in places like papua new guinea, trying to reduce the amount of deaths per year, but with no money in that country, and countless break ins to put anti venom on the black market it really is a hard battle. Experts like Mark O'shea are there for a few months of the year, along with aussie researchers. In australia most of the research on aussie species comes from the venom lab in S.A, Melbourne is only looking into small amounts of aussie snakes that the DSE needs help with. Papua new guinea and spiders are on the cards mainly atm. You can contact them and the director is Ken Winkle if you want to know more about the research there.

If you want to know more about Aussie reptiles contact venom supplies in South Australia. They sometimes are a little bit slack getting back to people, but that is who I would contact.

[Slackshot]

Seige
What i am trying to get through is that snake venom developed over thousands of years and not because some white bloke did or did not flog the **** out of them

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

I really can't be bothered justifying myself on every little point.

If you do not want to justify stuff then simply quote the sources or reference it.

An example

... Roadie - 3000 people are bitten by snakes each year. 40 have died since 1980. ...

These people - who have a lot more credibility - say 53 between 1979 and 1998. (Australian Venom Research Unit)

http://www.avru.org/general/general_fatals.html

Melbourne Uni (AVRU) says 58 between 1979 and 2000. http://www.nchirt.qut.edu.au/consultanc ... Slides.pdf

None of that correlates with your 40.

[Roadie]

Thank you Grahame, I thought some of the figures quoted seemed a bit Rubbery. As for the "compliment" paid to me, once again totally of track. And yes Grahame I totally concour with the PM's. Cheers Roadie.

[kerrille]

I fiound it funny when siege said living in mil dura you'ed see more snakes than in Melbourne ,growing up 60 k's west of Mildura which is farming country ,I would have been lucky to have seen 6/12 snakes in 17 yrs and yet in Melbourne killed 18 tigers in 3 weeks ... Which we cooked and ate and seen a lot more than we caught.

...on an exercise just above katherine in 89 a yank was found dead in his sleeping bag ,a tipan had crawled in when it was empty ,he was found with 32 bites ,they had been told to roll and pack their bags up ,but most didn't think we were serious ,they believed us after that.

...nev...

[Siege]

in mildura there is adders, brown snakes, tiger snakes, copperheads and a few other small species.

[Siege]

Seige
What i am trying to get through is that snake venom developed over thousands of years and not because some white bloke did or did not flog the **** out of them

I understand that, but what people have been trying to work out since the 1930's is why one snakes venom is a lot stronger than other species, and why is nearly all the top ten in Australia.

The most common answer to that is inAustralia they were aloowed to evolve over thousands of years, where in other countries and parts of the world they were not.

it is probably something no one will ever answer unless you get a time machine.

[Siege]

If you are going to google everytime someone says something, get your facts straight first.
This is snake bite fataities correct, but there are snakes not classed as venomous that have killed people as they have had an allergy, where other people would be fine or get a headache. That is what this table includes, not just 100% venomous.

That is why I said 40, if you had spent as much time actually doing research rather than goggling so you can feel like king dick, you might actually learn something.
But this is what the forum has come to expect from you, belittling and bullying to the point where people no longer want to post and it has caused a drop in the core group. But for me I have little to no interest in what you say as I have bigger concerns to worry about then some fool on the internet trying to prove he knows everything about everything.

Thank you for the imput on that guys.

Morning All.

I really can't be bothered justifying myself on every little point.

If you do not want to justify stuff then simply quote the sources or reference it.

An example

... Roadie - 3000 people are bitten by snakes each year. 40 have died since 1980. ...

These people - who have a lot more credibility - say 53 between 1979 and 1998. (Australian Venom Research Unit)

http://www.avru.org/general/general_fatals.html

Melbourne Uni (AVRU) says 58 between 1979 and 2000. http://www.nchirt.qut.edu.au/consultanc ... Slides.pdf

None of that correlates with your 40.

[Roadie]

Yep know all about Copperheads as it was about this time last year when setting up for the Masters Comp that one thought I needed a 24hr stint in the local hospital. 2 stikes & 3 your out. Not this little Black Duck..
I live my life according to the BOOK Of LIFE, Handed down to me by my ancestors. Of particular intrest is
On Page 12, Paragraph G, Rules 303 & 410. So far they haven't let me Down. Time for a Malt. Cheers Roadie.