Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

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little arrows
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Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#1 Post by little arrows » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:35 pm

Hi Everyone,

Here is a few of the shoots that have been moved plus added for 2017 - the printable single page version will be out shortly.

March 18 /19 - Wisemans Ferry Trad shoot - possibly followed by March 25 / 26 Twin City Bowmen, Albury NSW
- plus August 12 / 13 Memorial Trad Shoot at Wisemans Ferry (open shoot)
April 15 / 16 (Easter) - North Albert Field Archers
April 29 / 30 (May Qld Longweekend) Gladstone Longbow Recurve Muster
May 27 / 28 - Barambah Trad Bash + Nov 4 / 5 Bill Baker Memorial Trad Shoot being held at Barambah
June 10 / 11 Hunter Valley Gathering (June NSW Longweekend)
July 03-07 Norfolk Island 3D International - seperate Traditional Section
Aug 26/27 Silver City Archers, Broken Hill – then Sept 02 / 03 Mallee Sunset club, Mildura – then Sept 09 / 10 Swan Hill Archers = a good trip down south
Sept 30/Oct 1 Hunter Valley Charity shoot (October long weekend)

Well that should keep you going for starters. Please feel free to contact me if you would like further information.

cheers
sue

http://www.wallacetradwoods.com

little arrows
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#2 Post by little arrows » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:31 pm

Here is the printable version of the 2017 Proposed Trad Shoot Calendar. Some of the shoots need to be confirmed by club/branch/association, so will be updated as soon that information is known.
There are quite a few shoots being held on consecutive weekend, with plenty of time to plan your archery and travel holiday.



cheers
sue

http://www.wallacetradwoods.com
Last edited by little arrows on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#3 Post by little arrows » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:29 pm

Both the 2017 Hawkesbury Field Archers shoots at Wisemans Ferry, are confirmed by the club president - Mar 18/19 and Aug 12/13.

cheers
sue

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#4 Post by little arrows » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:34 pm

the 3DAAA calendar is out - North Albert Trad shoot April 15 / 16 is now confirmed. Have sent emails to Caboolture and Gladstone for further info.

cheers
sue

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#5 Post by little arrows » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:48 pm

I have just received a very disappointing reply from the Caboolture club. As 3DAAA has increased their Sanctioned Shoot/ Special Event fees to $45 per archer per weekend, the Caboolture club will no longer be holding a Trad shoot.

sue

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Ronster
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#6 Post by Ronster » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:53 pm

Thumbs down to 3DAAA. Caboolture was a great Trad event. :naughty:

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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greybeard
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#7 Post by greybeard » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:33 pm

little arrows wrote:........ As 3DAAA has increased their Sanctioned Shoot/ Special Event fees to $45 per archer per weekend, the Caboolture club will no longer be holding a Trad shoot...
Ronster wrote:Thumbs down to 3DAAA. Caboolture was a great Trad event.....
From the 3DAAA website;

2017 Shoot Fee Increase

In an effort to support clubs willing to put in the hard work required to hold a Sanctioned Event the National Committee has approved the following Shoot Fee Increase:
Increase in shoot fees for Sanctioned/Special Events for 2017
Adults $45
Juniors $30
Cubs $0
Family $105 (saving of 30%)
Aged Pension $30

Clubs benefit from this fee increase as this money goes to the host club.

There is NO increase to the shoot return remittance paid to 3DAAA.

If the new shoot fee structure is an imposition on some clubs hosting shoots why are Caboolture hosting this shoot [presumably at the new fee structure] and not willing to host a traditional shoot?

From the 3 DAAA 2017 shoot calendar;
Caboolture.jpg
Caboolture.jpg (20.6 KiB) Viewed 9573 times
Are there other issues that influenced the decision?

Are the new fees arbitrary or do clubs have the freedom to charge lower fees?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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DavidM
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#8 Post by DavidM » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:22 am

A couple of clubs down here in Mexico (on their own accord) got greedy and tried to charge $50 for a weekend shoot. This backfired badly on them with not many people bothering to tuning up. Perhaps this is the case here, the clubs may feel that once the fees reach a certain level it just puts people off going, so it’s not worth the effort to run?

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#9 Post by greybeard » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:44 pm

Hi David,

Your reply lacks detail in as much as to what the clubs were offering for the $50.00 shoot fee. Was the increased fee for all shoots or selected shoots? Are any of the clubs affiliated to the main stream associations or are they independent clubs.

Nomination fees have at times been a bone of contention and it may come down to the fact that some believe they are not getting value for money.

For clubs to remain viable they have to look closely at the options they have available for an income stream to keep the club operating and to meet their financial commitments.

Basically they have three sources of income, membership fees, shoot fees and canteen sales.

Increase any of the above and somebody will complain without giving any thought as to why the increase was necessary. One would expect that the management committee advised the club membership of the reasons for the increase.

With regards to 3DAAA setting a standard fee for sanctioned/special shoots it is probably a sound decision. As mentioned on the 3 DAAA web site the extra money goes to the club and not the association.

The club that I am a member of as a rule has around $35,000.00 of 3D targets on hand at any one time. The club needs to be able to set up 5 x 10 3D target ranges. Repairing shot out targets and buying new targets to replace old ones come at a price.

I believe that in this situation a user pays policy is the fairest solution.

Based on the average trad shooter attending five ‘special events’ per annum, we are looking at $50.00 per annum or less than $1.00 per week.

There is nothing to stop a club offering a free lunch to those who pre nominate to offset the increased shoot fee.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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DavidM
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#10 Post by DavidM » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:03 am

Main stream clubs, not lacking funds. No Extras, still had to pay for main meals etc. This fee was works out on a rate of $1 per arrow!! These shoots were 50 arrow weekends, one arrow per target. In a line of an old movie "Tell em the're dreaming"

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#11 Post by GrahameA » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:40 pm

Afternoon All.
greybeard wrote:... Nomination fees have at times been a bone of contention ...

... For clubs to remain viable they have to look closely at the options they have available for an income stream to keep the club operating and to meet their financial commitments. ...

... With regards to 3DAAA setting a standard fee for sanctioned/special shoots it is probably a sound decision. ...

... I believe that in this situation a user pays policy is the fairest solution. ...

My take is this. Clubs need to offset their costs, events need to be cost neutral and they should make a profit. If the costing is such that a price is "$X" and people are not willing to pay such then attendences will go down. The lack of people is the penalty for setting a price that people are not willing to pay. They have priced themselves out of the market.
Last edited by GrahameA on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grahame.
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#12 Post by bigbob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:54 pm

As a pensioner who was unfortunate in life not to have access to mainline superannuation during most my working life. Yes i know I could have done something on my own initiative but things were quite different then and not just black and white decisions. However my point is this; many , many people are struggling to just meet the ever increasing utility costs these day, not including all the other living costs, and for me whatever the justification for charging big nomination monies, engages little sympathies. A lot of clubs are now noticing a drop of in attendance rates, and fewer people travelling to inter- club shoots and believe me it will only get worse. Imposts like this newest one will only exacerbate this present scenario. Good luck to the fortunate ones who can afford it.
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#13 Post by DavidM » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:06 pm

DavidM wrote:My take is this. Clubs need to offset their costs, events need to be cost neutral and they should make a profit. If the costing is such that a price is "$X" and people are not willing to pay such then attendences will go down. The lack of people is the penalty for setting a price that people are not willing to pay. They have priced themselves out of the market.
Yes Graham, and that is exactly what happened! people didnt turn up. The clubs had to eat humble pie the next year and reduce the fees back to there original level, the people voted!

And yes Bob i agree with you numbers are down in most shoots these day with less people prepared to travel. When it comes to cost, there is not only the entrence fee, there is travel costs, plus accommodation costs, some time, plus, plus, plus. There is a limit to the size of the money bucket and with the cost of living increasing its only going to get smaller.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#14 Post by GrahameA » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:20 pm

Evening.
DavidM wrote:Yes Graham, and that is exactly what happened! people didnt turn up. The clubs had to eat humble pie the next year and reduce the fees back to there original level, the people voted!...
It is good when the system works and people are appropriately rewarded/punished for their decisions.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#15 Post by greybeard » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:42 pm

Yes, times can be tough for some and this type of statement always brings to mind what an acquaintance once said to me,

“I find it difficult to pay off my credit card and I usually have to make the minimum payment”

Although he states he has a problem paying off his credit card he can manage to find near $100.00 per week to buy tobacco and lotto entries.
GrahameA wrote:........and people are appropriately rewarded/punished for their decisions.
Perhaps there are more affluent [disposable income] people out there than we realise.

I have travelled to numerous trad shoots over the years and I am amazed at the number of late model four wheel drive vehicles, quite a few towing reasonably new caravans that turn up to the shoots.

At the end of the day if people believe they are getting value for money they will turn up.

Traditional shoots are more than just shooting a few arrows.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Ronster
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#16 Post by Ronster » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:30 pm

Hi All, my reply came from the word that Caboolture were no longer holding the event because of the increase in fees!. Also it is not just the cost of fees but of the cost of travel, It is an expensive weekend when archers are travelling large distances to an event.
I might add that Caboolture is to my mind one of the best shoots that Sue and I attend, and I for one am very dissapointed for whatever the reason a Trad shoot will no longer be held there.
So Maybe 3D AAA are not to blame totally, but it sure has not helped. IMHO.

Ronster :sad:
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

little arrows
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#17 Post by little arrows » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:17 pm

Granite Belt Bowmen at Stanthorpe have confirmed shoot weekend dates 4 / 5 March 2016.

added with edit: file deleted, and latest update will be found just a little further down the page :)

cheers
sue
Last edited by little arrows on Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#18 Post by kerry » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:26 pm

Granite Belt Bowmen at Stanthorpe have confirmed shoot weekend dates 4/5 March 2017 [ fixed it for you ] :biggrin: :Bow
Life is not a fairy tale,if you lose a shoe at midnight , you're drunk.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#19 Post by little arrows » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:28 pm

was just checking to see if anyone read it.... :biggrin:

cheers
sue

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#20 Post by little arrows » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:48 pm

I have been in contact with the Caboolture Bowmen, and have been advised, the Trad shoot will be put on their clubs meeting agenda for discussion of holding the shoot again in 2018, which is great news.

Here is the latest 2017 Proposed Calendar upload, not all have yet been confirmed. I am sure this will come in due course from the clubs, and I will pass on the info as I receive it.

(with edit: file removed and replaced see below post)

cheers
sue
Last edited by little arrows on Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#21 Post by little arrows » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:40 pm

Lakeside have confirmed the dates for 2017 Jules Shield Trad shoot is July 1 / 2.

There is also a mini Trad shoot in replacement for this years Caboolture date June 17/18, with the possibility of Caboolture returning for 2018.

The Lakeside Club is also holding an Inaugural Open and Trad shoot June 10/11 .... there will be a separate course for Trad bows.
Here is latest update:



cheers
sue
Last edited by little arrows on Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#22 Post by little arrows » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:14 pm

Latest update of Trad shoot calendar.
Chevallan Archery Park dates all confirmed and North Burnett has moved to weekend 05/06 August.



cheers
sue
Last edited by little arrows on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#23 Post by little arrows » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

I have learned 2nd hand the Jules Shield shoot has now been moved to June 10 / 11 2017.

added with edit (24/02/17) - have now been advised now moved to July 22 / 23
Last edited by little arrows on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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temudjin
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#24 Post by temudjin » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:18 am

This is a really interesting discussion that deserves to be heard by and involve many, many more archers.

My experience in business tells me that the costs to offer any service (or to run a shoot) are of two different sorts. In accounting they call these fixed and variable costs.

Fixed costs do not change based on the number of attendees... they are fixed - an example would be the cost of promoting the event via TAA and/or OzBow or placing an ad in Archery Action magazine. Variable costs on the other hand change based on the number of attendees - for example the wear and tear on targets is a function of how many arrows hit each target.

Accountants use these costs to calculate what they call the "break even point" - that is the point at which all the costs are covered and the event starts to make a profit. Because some of the costs are fixed and do not increase with more attendees the profit of the event goes up dramatically once the break even point is reached.

There is a more detailed explanation at this link... https://www.business.qld.gov.au/busines ... even-point

The point of this is that attendance numbers are critical to how much the event makes after the costs have been covered...ie how much cash the club keeps to pay for better facilities and services in the future.

So this discussion of nomination fees and attendance numbers is critical to the financial success of any event. And I think this is why Graeme A has asked in another post somewhere on OzBow if anyone has done a detailed cost analysis of an archery event.

Setting the "right" nomination fee is a function of knowing all the costs involved in setting up and running the event. And then making an educated (hopefully informed by experience) guess of the likely attendance numbers at various nomination fee levels. But there are a few key movers of attendance numbers for an event:

1. Cost to attend (nomination fee plus any other likely costs like travel, cost of meals etc).

2. The likelihood of an enjoyable weekend compared to other options available.

3. The number of likely attendees who know about the event... How well the word has been spread. In business we call this PR and marketing.

The fact is that if you run a great event (decent food, friendly atmosphere, challenging and enjoyable archery courses, decent weather and so on) that is fairly priced and well promoted you will get a good attendance. And if you manage the costs properly, the more attendees, the more the club makes.

Sorry this is a bit long but hopefully it makes sense...

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#25 Post by Ronster » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:59 pm

kerry wrote:Granite Belt Bowmen at Stanthorpe have confirmed shoot weekend dates 4/5 March 2017 [ fixed it for you ] :biggrin: :Bow
Hi Kerry what is the camping situation for caravans.

Ronster
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#26 Post by kerry » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:50 pm

g'day Ron, caravans up to 20foot can get in ok there's a few tight corners so vans over that size may be a problem, but we do have an option for the bigger vans off the grounds available. I'll be around somewhere the week before so if anyone has a query don't hesitate to give me a call on 0429879292 cheers kerry
Life is not a fairy tale,if you lose a shoe at midnight , you're drunk.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#27 Post by greybeard » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:29 pm

Tom, another important factor to consider is the maximum number of competitors a particular club can comfortably handle.

At North Albert we have had in excess of 200 competitors attending our two day 3DAAA competitions. To cater for these numbers 5 x 10 target ranges are needed to maintain the flow of shooters.

Catering is probably the most difficult part of organising the event knowing that you will sell between four to five hundred burgers with all the trimmings over the weekend.
Additionally a good supply of cold drinks, small cakes, chocolate bars etc are required. Breakfasts and dinners also need to be catered for but in lesser quantities.
Fortunately most of the competitors were day trippers so camping space and toilets/showers was not an issue.

Having an adequate number of volunteers to run the kitchen to maintain the food supply and to work behind the counter goes a long way to make the shoot a success.

From memory our best attendance numbers at one of our Traditional Rendezvous was 122. Fortunately we had a number of club members [compound shooters] help out over the weekend.

The majority of shooters camped for the two to three days so there was not much room left for day trippers to park.

If not closely controlled the cost of trophies and food wastage can erode a considerable amount of the profits generated by the event.

Possibly the question that could be asked is what R O I should clubs expect.
temudjin wrote:.........of this is that attendance numbers are critical to how much the event makes after the costs have been covered......
At the end of the day isn’t it better to have fifty or so happy shooters than eighty or more unhappy shooters?

The attached document from the 3DAAA web site explains the reason for the fee increase but I doubt if any trad shooters could have been bothered to read it.
3 DAAA Fees.doc
(54.5 KiB) Downloaded 79 times
The target manufacturers costing may favour the manufacturer and is probably based on compound shooters, I believe trad shooters do less damage to targets.

Back in 2003 [after a committee member who opens mouth before putting brain into gear] complained that we weren’t charging enough to cover target wear at our traditional shoots.

After analysing fees charged for shooting 3D targets at a N.A F.A. club shoot the cost per arrow per target worked out as follows.

N.A.F.A. [3D shoot] $13.00 x 40 targets = 32.5 cents per target. [Adult fee]

I did a cost per arrow per target comparison for one of our trad shoots and came up with the following numbers.

Traditional Shoot

$25.00 x 55 targets = 45.5 cents per target [Adult fee]
$40.00 x l10 targets = 36.3 cents per target [Husband and Wife]

At the time most of the family nominators had children who fell into the Cub Division that in itself made it a little more difficult to reach a finite conclusion on a cost per arrow per target.

Arrows being shot and targets required for the traditional shoot are as follows.

Saturday 3 x10 targets = 30.
Sunday 2 x l0 targets = 20.
Speed Round 5 targets 5.
Total targets required 55.

When the said committee member saw the figures he realised what a complete idiot he had made of himself.

Daryl.
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Ronster
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#28 Post by Ronster » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:09 pm

kerry wrote:g'day Ron, caravans up to 20foot can get in ok there's a few tight corners so vans over that size may be a problem, but we do have an option for the bigger vans off the grounds available. I'll be around somewhere the week before so if anyone has a query don't hesitate to give me a call on 0429879292 cheers kerry
Thanks Kerry.
Ronster :auto-camptrailer:
I would love to be an expert, but experience and lack of knowledge holds me back!

Bows:-
Raven Vanquish 62" TD Recurve 44# @ 28"
Beaver 64" Longbow 41# @ 27"
Bear Montana 64" Longbow 50# @ 28"
Win & Win Winact ILF Riser and Win & Win Pro accent ILF carbon foam limbs 48# @ 28"

little arrows
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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#29 Post by little arrows » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:04 pm

I have just been advised of another date change - Jules Shield Shoot being held at Lakeside Club is now being held July 22 / 23.

added with edit: file has been removed and updated version is below.
sue
Last edited by little arrows on Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proposed 2017 Trad shoots

#30 Post by little arrows » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:33 pm

The Memorial Shoot at Wisemans Ferry has been moved to Sept 16 / 17 2017. The shoot is open and you may use any arrow type. More information will be available on a separate thread at a later date.
2017 TRAD CALENDAR at 200317.pdf
(128.64 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
cheers
sue

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