Numb fingers

[muntries]

Hi Guys,

Has anyone had numb fingertips from a shooting session? I had a day practicing my form last friday arvo and when I finished (about an hour after) my finger tips went numb and stayed like that until about yesterday. Has anyone ever experienced this before and if so is it common? I've never experienced it before but it was continuous shooting for 2-3hours.

Simon

[otis.drum]

hey mate,
i used to get it when i shot split finger for extended periods. i changed to three under release for other reasons and have not had the issue since.

[muntries]

hehehe, I was shooting the opposite and I got the numb fingers, I found I was pinching the arrow too much. The only thing I can think that is different is a change in gloves but I found them more comfortable than the old ones.

[AndyD]

Hi Simon,

I shoot 3 under and have experienced this. The worst case (after a 4-5 hour practise session) the numbness lasted nearly a week in my ring finger!
I was using a fairly thin leather glove at the time and swapped to a Blackwidow 3 under tab. Never had it again!
Cheers

[Stephen Georgiou]

The easy answer is that the pressure on your fingers is causing nerve damage. This is causing the numbness. Numbness is not good and can be avoided by using a thicker tab or glove.
Building up callouses over time will reduce the problem but if your fingers are getting numb after such a short time you need to deal with it. I use a Saunders All Weather tab that has 5 layers of material. My release doe not suffer and I can shoot arrows all day from a heavy bow.
Another option is a glove with double layer leather / cordovan (horse leather) gloves made by Neet and Bear Archery. Very good but a bit bulky if you have a shorter bow.

Hope this helps.
SG

[stringnstik]

Yep I get this (middle finger only)when using my glove as its thinner than the tab I used to use. I ended up putting a teflon fingertip/pad piece inside the glove on my middle finger. considerably better but I still get a little numbness after a shoot..but then I dont get much practice in to build up the finger tip.

What I wasnt sure of was what part of the release causes the problem. Is it the string brushing past the finger pad or is it the string pinching ..erm like pushing a wave of skin and flesh from the first nuckle to the tip as it is released. Or is it the string at rest cutting into the first nuckle joint at draw n hold.

The teflon piece pretty much rules out friction. I feel its more the pinch/wave like thing happening. Which would indicate that the teflon piece would need to distribute the energy further back.ie past the 1st nuckle towards the 2. Not sure how id do this without the string catching on the joint.

In other words could a better slicker release help the problem?

[muntries]

Thanks guys that was really helpful, the sensation is akin to that what I have in another finger where I did a deep cut on my ring finger on my other hand after an argument with a bread knife(the knife won) so it probably is a bit of nerve damage. The new gloves I have are a pair of martin deer skins, the previous gloves where a cheapo pair from the local shop (can't think of the manufacturer) but I didn't feel like I could feel the string that well (then I lost them too) so I got the martins. stringnstik, where can I get the teflon pads and will I need to sew it into the gloves or just insert it?

Simon

[Stickbow Hunter]

Simon,

You may have just over done the shooting if you haven't been shooting a lot. I have used those Martin Deer Skin gloves for probably 15 years and with heavy bows and never had a problem. They are thinner than some gloves but I like them as I can feel the string yet the finger pads don't get a groove in them like some other gloves.

More regular shooting with less arrows being shot might help toughen up your fingers until it is no longer a problem. Make sure you let the present numbness go away before shooting again though.

Jeff

[muntries]

Thanks Jeff,

To be honest I haven't done that much shooting up here in Ballarat, club shoot is every two weeks and haven't been to every one of those lately but I've started practicing a bit on thursdays. I'll be going down again tomorrow and I'll see how I go again. Thats the same reason I got the deerskin too, so I could feel the string a bit more.

Tah

Simon

[dawallace45]

I used to shoot heavy bows [ 70-80# ] and never had a problem for about 25 years , had extremely thick calluses on my fingers , buggered my shoulder bad and couldn't shoot for a year or so and then started back with out the calluses , with in a month I was getting the numbness you describe , it is nerve damage and left to continue can be permanent , thicker tab or glove is the thing that seems to work best , I just went to a tab and it's fine now , of course I was also forced by my shoulder to go down in my bow weight as well

Mind you after shooting one of LB Rods heavy bows yesterday I'm seriously thinking of building my self another heavy bow , I really shouldn't but I most probably will ,

Be smarter than me and get a thicker tab and a glove both and see which works best for you

David

[stringnstik]

HI simon,
Teflon, oooo erm they had some at work and I just insert it. A bit tricky when you first put it on but once on it doesnt move.

[muntries]

Ok guys, I went out for a shoot first thing this morning and I've just got back in and I've been using the martin gloves again. Same problem and its the ring finger thats numb again. The bow isn't very heavy, only 41# and I've not had problems previously until I bought this new glove. I have a club shoot this sunday and I'm gonna switch to my old neet gloves and see if that makes a difference and I'll let you know. I might see if those blisterpads have an effect too, I like the martin gloves and I don't want to ditch them without trying to remedy the problem first.

[Jeffro]

How old are you?
You could have something worse than what has been mentioned and a trip to the chiropractor might be in order.
Just a thought though and I may be well wrong.
I have had lots of numb fingers and it all comes from pinched nerves in my neck.
Hope it sorts itself out for you.
Jeff

[muntries]

Hi Jeffro,

I'm 32, I've never had neck problems before but lower back is sometimes a bit sore, mainly from penpushing and sitting in an office chair . The penpushing might also explain why my soft ladies hands are suffering now with the bow. I suspect its because of the glove change and I'll test this out on sunday to see if it happens or not with the old gloves, if not then I'll stick with the old ones even though my new deerskins are lovely and soft! If it continues with both then a visit to a doc might be in order. Another thing that has changed is my release, up until recently I was a serial string plucker but I'm releasing a lot smoother to touch my shoulder at the end of release, could this affect it?

[Jhoneil]

Are you using a deep hook or are you using the pads of your finger tips? Using the pads of the fingers is another cause of nerve damage.

[muntries]

Jhoneil, I'm not sure what deephook is, I could be using the pads of my fingertips. As I've said, when I release I've been concentrating on making it a lot more fluid rather than plucking like I was doing.

[Jhoneil]

Here is a picture of a deep hook. This is very extreme tho. It's ok for the string to rest on the crease/line of the fingers but never on the pads of the finger tips.

[muntries]

jhoneil, seems you might have been right about the cause of the issue. I wasn't aware of it but I was using the pads of my fingers. Todays shoot I changed that to a deep hook and no finger numbness issues. Thanks for that!!

[Jhoneil]

Great! Now do some shoulder/arm stretches before shooting to prevent other injuries

[Serpentes]

I just tried shooting with a deeper hook. I have previously been using my fingertips, and they have been getting sore.

My groupings immediately improved using a deeper hook in my fingers on draw. I couldn't be happier with what this small, more comfortable difference in form has made to my groupings. 6 inch groups at 20m was tricky before, but now it just happens using a deeper hook! Thanks all!!

[stringnstik]

finally got a chance to have a play with this.
I noticed I shot with the string pretty much in the nook of the first nuckle. This maybe due to the fact that my glove has a seam just in front of this. If I hook the string as shown re the picture it is just smack on this seam. Concerned it would catch on this seam on the way past if hooked just behind. It certainly causes a bulge in the leather in front of the seam if hooked behind the seam. Even with only a few shots it was messing up the this thin leather.

Ill give making a glove a go that has a reinforced section that goes further back which would allow me to hook as per the picture and see what happens.

Shooting without a glove with the deep hook did not suddenly improve my groupings but it also did not deteriorate them...i guess im just mediocre no mater which way i shoot :lol

to be continued.....

[hue]

was waiting for someone to mention the deep hook, you don't spend millions at the ais investigating this kind of thing and then poo-pooing it. but it only works with a tab, the glove is different. IMHO, if you want to become more profficient in archery, ditch the gloves unless you use a three point anchor!
numbness is a no-no as it will lead to nerve damage and i'm glad Simon that you were able to rectify the problem.
as Steve G. pointed out, it could just be the thickness of you glove/tab, but also the way you hook the string (which is more likely the case) with the deep hook, remember the release must be smooth, so make sure that your fingers open cleanly and quickly

Good luck mate

Hue

[stringnstik]

yep just shot a few from the warbow using deep hook and a sort of glove. Fingers tips are fine.

I have one fallout with tabs and thats grabbing, nocking and hooking the string. its just all too "I have lots of time to get it all in the right place" oh dear the army has already overrun me. After messing with my glove I believe I can achieve the best of both,, we will see

But yes I could agree with you Hue, to get a perfect release every time the tab is just its bits. I just find them a pain to use for this sort of archery.

[muntries]

Thanks Hue,

Yep I haven't had a problem since using a deep hook and the martin deerskin gloves don't catch on the seam so all is well there. I shoot three under and I was trying spit finger but I just couldn't seem to stop pinching the arrow (causing the arrow to flip off the shelf) so I went back to what I was comfortable with. As for gloves, I prefer because with the tabs I was using I didn't feel like I could feel the strings as well as the glove and then there are the aesthetics. I love archery because its fun but also because the equipment is so beautiful too.

I'm glad my post has helped others too, thought at first it might have been a silly question.

[muntries]

Hue, I've been concious about a clean release I think I said earlier I was a string plucker but I've been working on that. My most recent problem has been relaxing at anchor causing the arrow to move forward about an inch on the shelf. Possibly slightly heavy bow and currently doing some exercises to increase my strength but also have a slight bout of tennis elbow caused by too much computer work (the way I hold my mouse apparently). Could be the latter but to be honest it doesn't seem to hurt when drawing the bow so not sure.

[stringnstik]

Hue, I've been concious about a clean release I think I said earlier I was a string plucker but I've been working on that. My most recent problem has been relaxing at anchor causing the arrow to move forward about an inch on the shelf. Possibly slightly heavy bow and currently doing some exercises to increase my strength but also have a slight bout of tennis elbow caused by too much computer work (the way I hold my mouse apparently). Could be the latter but to be honest it doesn't seem to hurt when drawing the bow so not sure.

I dont believe any question is silly

Tennis elbow and long years sitting at pc just go hand in hand. Them saying its how you hold the mouse is pretty much a "pass the buck" you can hold it anyway you like, Use both, hands, swap, use a tablet, use a scroll ball, change your seat, stand up and do physio every 5 min... i've tried em all. the damage was done long ago pre days of ergonomics. I have not noticed any adverse problems after archery tho so all is good

Got my son to video(silly snapy camera) me drawing and releasing the warbow yesterday. Very interesting to sit back and watch all the the upper body and movements.Frame rate was too slow to really analyse it but certainly learnt a few things I was unknowingly doing.

[muntries]

I don't think the desk sitting was the original cause but the years in the flooring industry, namely using an edge sander. They have a fair bit of grunt and push against you as you're shifting them from side to side. It's just the recent computer work seems to have aggrivated it.

[stringnstik]

I said I would so here is the report.
As I mentioned above and in ref to the picture in Jhoneil post the string on the middle finger would be right on the seam of my glove so I needed to "extend" the rugged part of the glove further back.
How to do this? hmm.. As always I waited to the last minute and as the family was reading lunch and equipment for a days archery I was madly trying to sew something up. I didnt want to ruin my glove so I came up with this, see below. Its rough and not an indication of my sewing prowess :lol but it did give me some ideas of what to try next.

In a nutshell the idea was a success.I got very clean release and no finger numbness at all. The elastic was a tad tight, even so I still got a little creeping of the ..erm finger guard so I need to come up with a better application of the idea. Its still al glove and has all the ++ of a glove. I believe a thinner leather would be fine but it would have to stand up against the string friction.

It was a scrap piece of rugged leather which was not particularly flexible. But I still got good feel and was able to hold the string further back ie middle of the 1st/2nd nuckle, well away from the finger tip AS you can see from the photos after a days clout and 3d not many signs of wear apart from a tear at one of the right angles. I learnt one should ALWAYs cut curves:) Because it was stiff I had to make those cutaways so it didnt bend and fold up on the wrong spot. I sewed it to elastic cause I was in a hurray and wasnt sure of the shape or measurements.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Simon,

Have a look at my reply to bigbob in relation to his issue about the string hitting his wrist. I disagree with JHONEIL's reply that the string should not be held on the pads of the fingers. In my opinion from my nurse training and our anatomy lectures is that the pad IS the correct place to place the string because, in the distal joints of the fingers especially, the finger nerves run on the underside of the finger bones and are closest to the surface there and much more likely to suffer damage from excessive compression. The position of the string in JHONEIL's post show the string resting on the pads of the medial phalanges (middle finger bones), so they are still on a pad and not on a joint.

Excessive use can produce a kind of numbness with a burning sensation which is not actually numbness. Numbness is a lack of feeling such as when you get frozen fingers on a very cold day of from a local anaesthetic. What you were most likely suffering was hyperstimulation of the feeling sensation (tactile) nerves in the fingertips. If they were numb, there would not be any sensation at all. This hypersensation may be mistaken for numbness because it is overwhelming to the point that no other sensations can be detected by the fingertips.

It is the same effect as when, in hospital, we used to 'desensitise' and area with some nervous patients prior to giving an injection by slapping it immediately prior to disinfecting it. The slap hypersensitised the area to the point that the superficial tactile nerves could not detect the injection when it happened. In my opinion, what happened to your fingers is a similar phenomenon taken to excess and which took 2 days to settle down in the same way that numbing from a local anaesthetic takes a period of time to dissipate. In your case, the desensitization may have come from the shearing force exerted by the bowsting on the finger pads (if that is where you hold your string) or from compression of the nerves if you hold you string in the actual finger joint. In the fingerjoint, the effect of string compression of the tissues is much more likely to be serious and permanent in the long term because the nerve pathways are so close to the surface. This compression on the nerve in the finger joint will cause a sort of numbness because the area of compression is like a tourniquet effect and prevents nerve sensations from passing the point of compression to reach the brain or the reverse. In other words, the trauma signals from the fingertips cannot get to the brain past the compression area. This is how, with repeated misuse, the damage can become permanent.

I would suggest that you shot this bow too often too quickly, and that if you follow Jeff's suggestion, your fingertips will toughen and you won't have a problem. I use a damascus glove for longer periods of practice but for short duration practice of up to 30 minutes, I use my fingertips without any problem at all and have done so for many years.

I am a bit perplexed by the claims above of cleaner looses with a 'deep' hold on the string and I cannot see how it can be superior from the following point of view. As the string is loosed, there is much longer period of string drag against the fingers in the range of nearly twice as much as when the string is dragged across the distal (finger tip) pads only. I can't get it to work as well as claimed when I tried it just a few minutes ago, so I am a bit puzzled.

[excelpoint]

contact Rod Jenkins and ask his opinion on the whole thicker glove, callous, numb fingers thing. A lot different to what most think.