Hypothetical at the Peg. "What style"

[longbow steve]

I havent tried string walking with my longbows but I will make a point to do so for curiosity sake. I think the use of adjustable centre shot/tiller and stabiliser's is my concern for even footing when compared to timber bows. I have taken out my fair share of average modern traditionalists and bare bow compounders but in the right hands I dont stand a chance. Take off the rests, stabilisers and shoot the same arrows and we are back on relatively even ground. Steve

[greybeard]

Troy,

Covering the previous twelve months can you let all and sundry know how many 3DAAA, ABA, IFAA, FITA, AA shoots you attended as a registered competitor?

Daryl.

[perry]

I have not competed in an Archery tournament for a couple of years but I held these same veiws back then. I'll work to improve form and mindset to give an edge before I'll seek advanced equipment to give an edge. If I get beaten [often] it is by a better archer on the day.

I also shoot with a hybrid mix of Instinctive, Split Vision and Gap beyond point blank range. Just depends on the situation and target being shot at which system I use. Also been known to use my arrow shelf, a knuckle and even happenstance placed cresting bands on 80 + yard muck about shot's, Shush

I have no issue with competing against a fellow in Troys Hypothetical / all comps that competes using any of the barebow technique's outlined. If you are clever and dedicated enough to learn to shoot with these systems more power to you.

Discussion about equipment is part of the answer as I see it. I'll give my veiws on bows in Troys Hypothetical comp / all comps and save an arrow pasting for another thread. I've known him for around 35 years a very poor prize in even a Hypothetical comp

The most common objection I hear is that ILF bows are adjustable! This means nothing on the competition field in my eyes as they are not routinely nor should they be re-tuned through a competition nor should Selfbow's or other styles of modern Traditional bows, equipment failure issues aside. Many disiplines do not allow you to adjust brace height during competition, its an adjustment and a fair enough rule as well. We all know folks flought rules but this is a Hypothetic comp where all is fair.

I have tuned Selfbows to punch near perfect bullet holes in a bareshaft paper test with carefull manipulation of tiller, brace height, nocking point, arrow spine and even the number of strands and material of my bowstring. An ILF bow allows more versatility and more tuning options through mechanical adjustability of tiller, drawweight and string line on top of possesing the tuning for other Traditional bows. I strive to tune all my Bow and arrow combinations to this standard- Learn how to tune your non ILF bow and you will be right in their with perfect arrow flight.

Tillering a RELIABLE Selfbow that was to be shot by a string walker or face walker would be nigh impossible due to the vastly differant stresses placed on the limbs from shot to shot at differing ranges. A big advantage to the modern fibreglass/ carbon lamination / ILF bow is the ability to handle these stress's. It still leaves a Gap shooter or Instinctive ? shooter the option of using a Selfbow and competing.

Any system that requires anchor point or finger placement changes will change the stress's being applied to the limbs and they will bend unevenly. Tiller is built / adjusted to suit a specific anchor point and draw length assuming your grip stays constant. A new anchor point will affect arrow flight as tiller is affacted with the differing forces on the bows limbs. A gap system requires consistent drawlength, finger placement on the string and anchor point as does an Instinctive system if you wish to be consistent = Advantage to have constant tiller and possible disadvantage to float your anchor point or hand position on your string with potential for erratic arrow flight.

Grips, mass etc are all capable of being built into a Selfbow but generally a modern bow has a more ergonomic grip than Selfbows generally posses. I have a Biomechanically correct grip for my ILF bow that asists me to align my Skeleton. I found a shooting style with my Selfbow where my Skeleton aligns though the straight grip it has makes it harder to acheive.

I often wonder when I hear "He's a Gap Shooter" or "He string walks" as they look down their noses that the real issue is not the system being used but more another example of Archery Dogma / Lore intermingling. Some folks attribute the accuracy acheived soley to the use of these systems without stopping and thinking that the offending archer set out to understand and perfect them and this is a part of the secret to accuracy.

There is a romantic ideal of Traditional Archery and perhaps issues arise as these systems are considered outside of this romantic ideal. In a way some MAY see this as protecting the true spirit of Traditional archery.

All shooting systems where created to assist the archer in their ultimate Goal - to hit the Target. We all fit into a little a niche and some like to sample other niche's, I say let em and forget about competing against anyone but yourself. Of cause differing Archery disiplines do cater for most archer's so like minded folks can get together. The common thread is we all practice archery, a most diverse pastime.

Human nature is to tear down things that are differant, not understood or that are perceived as a threat to a preconception- I'll hide now, will stick my head up a little latter on

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Steve

I havent tried string walking with my longbows but I will make a point to do so for curiosity sake.

I did once - it was not a pleasant experience.

The sound, etc. of the bow when shot is probably one of the main reasons I have not explored stringwalking that much.

[Chase N. Nocks]

I often wonder when I hear "He's a Gap Shooter" or "He string walks" as they look down their noses that the real issue is not the system being used but more another example of Archery Dogma / Lore intermingling. Some folks attribute the accuracy acheived soley to the use of these systems without stopping and thinking that the offending archer set out to understand and perfect them and this is a part of the secret to accuracy.

There is a romantic ideal of Traditional Archery and perhaps issues arise as these systems are considered outside of this romantic ideal. In a way some MAY see this as protecting the true spirit of Traditional archery.

All shooting systems where created to assist the archer in their ultimate Goal - to hit the Target. We all fit into a little a niche and some like to sample other niche's, I say let em and forget about competing against anyone but yourself. Of cause differing Archery disiplines do cater for most archer's so like minded folks can get together. The common thread is we all practice archery, a most diverse pastime.

regards Jacko

Mate, Amongst everything else you said which I agree with, the above in direct relevance to the hypothetical is exactly right in my humble opinion.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Steve

I havent tried string walking with my longbows but I will make a point to do so for curiosity sake.

I did once - it was not a pleasant experience.

The sound, etc. of the bow when shot is probably one of the main reasons I have not explored stringwalking that much.

And I Grahame. It just sounds wrong when I'm doing it. But then I'm probably doing it wrong.

I have watched a number of the barebow shooting DVD's over the last month as part of a determination to make time to shoot the bow more regularly, no one else is going to do it for me. I am facinated by the different styles yet cannot determine that any have a overall advantage over another. They may have an advantage in certain areas such as a gap shooter being able to correct his/her last shot, or POA shooter being able to shoot particularly tight groups.

Being instinctive I actually find shot correction on the fly to be quite difficult as there is no point me gapping the 2nd shot because I can't tell you where the point of the arrow was in relation to the target with the first shot. Don't get me wrong, I am not one who claims NOT to see anything but the target. My bow arm, bow and arrow are certainly in the picture, in my vision. But they are used subconsciously as part of the mental triangulation taking place. I'm not deliberately paying attention to the arrow, just know it's there.

I think, but don't know, that string walking would would better with centreshot bows so more typically recurves are better suited. But would be happy and enlightened to hear the contrary.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Troy,

Covering the previous twelve months can you let all and sundry know how many 3DAAA, ABA, IFAA, FITA, AA shoots you attended as a registered competitor?

Daryl.

G'day Daryl,

I have attended none in probably in the last 2 1/2 years, and only a handful in the last 10 years. Although I hope to see you Sunday weather permitting, recovering from the flu so do not want to risk a repeat of the last 2 weeks. I have never competed in IFAA, FITA or AA. Although I did begin archery as a target archer.

I apologise if I do not see the relavence of the question though.

Regards

Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

Tillering a RELIABLE Selfbow that was to be shot by a string walker or face walker would be nigh impossible due to the vastly differant stresses placed on the limbs from shot to shot at differing ranges. A big advantage to the modern fibreglass/ carbon lamination / ILF bow is the ability to handle these stress's. It still leaves a Gap shooter or Instinctive ? shooter the option of using a Selfbow and competing.

Any system that requires anchor point or finger placement changes will change the stress's being applied to the limbs and they will bend unevenly. Tiller is built / adjusted to suit a specific anchor point and draw length assuming your grip stays constant. A new anchor point will affect arrow flight as tiller is affacted with the differing forces on the bows limbs. A gap system requires consistent drawlength, finger placement on the string and anchor point as does an Instinctive system if you wish to be consistent = Advantage to have constant tiller and possible disadvantage to float your anchor point or hand position on your string with potential for erratic arrow flight.

regards Jacko

This in particular is important as being one of the practical hurdles that need to be accepted and overcome if shooting this style, one not encountered by the mediterranian release archer. I thought I had made this point but I think I missed it in one of my long winded replies..I am sure Simon (Brumbies) would agree as well.

If I may draw an analogy, and I know analogies don't always hold up. And this was suggested in a conversation about this topic.

Instinctive.....asking someone what 3 + 6 equals and someone replying instantly "9" it seems the instinctive reply but it is just learned as a proven truth that has been repeated hundreds/thousands of time.

One of the more deliberate styles..string walking...asking someone what 3 + 6 equals and that person counting out on their fingers 1,2,3,...4,5,6,7,8,"9" an equally valid way to arrive at the same conclusion and correct. Just a different style.

[perry]

I've known him for around 35 years a very poor prize in even a Hypothetical comp

Mate, Amongst everything else you said which I agree with, the above in direct relevance to the hypothetical is exactly right in my humble opinion.

regards Jacko

[Chase N. Nocks]

I've known him for around 35 years a very poor prize in even a Hypothetical comp

Mate, Amongst everything else you said which I agree with, the above in direct relevance to the hypothetical is exactly right in my humble opinion.

regards Jacko

Yes yes, I agree with even that.

[greybeard]

Hi Troy,

As the “Hypothetical at the Peg” has developed I have got the impression that the thread was deliberately worded to plant the seeds for change.

The rules as laid down by the various archery disciplines seem to work well, so ‘if it ain’t broke why try to fix it?’

One could also pose the question that ‘during the course of competition can an archer change his/her style?’

My question regarding how many shoots you have attended was prompted by the 3DAAA rule change in the Traditional division allowing carbon/aluminium arrows.

I for one was disappointed with the rule changes [based on flimsy excuses] but as I have not participated in 3DAAA shoots for about four years I have no grounds on which to complain. There were some complaining about the rule change and yet they do not participate in 3DAAA shoots.

I am a member [card no.337] of 3DAAA.

Apart from doing some paper rounds at my club I only attend non association traditional shoots.

G'day Daryl, I have attended none in probably in the last 2 ½ years, and only a handful in the last 10 years.

Troy, by your own admission you do not attend association based shoots and yet you want rule changes. If you don’t compete why complain?

Troy, I have yet to master the multiple quote overlay thing so you will have suffer my ‘copy and paste.’

While separation or exclusion works within a certain discipline based on false premises than there isn't really freedom of choice. When the distances are unknown, I don't believe there is a measurable advantage from one style to the next. Without contrary information I would guess that it was simply an ignorant arbitrary decision that has actually helped establish a linear predjudice amongst many (not all) field archers. I'm surprised they didn't ban left hand shooters as well...maybe I could have brought Fred Bear into the discussion if that had been the case.

Troy, do others believe that ‘While separation or exclusion works within a certain discipline based on false premises than there isn't really freedom of choice.’

The freedom of choice is there; if you don’t like the rules of one organization go find another. Why do people join certain religious organizations?

Troy, Is your Hypothetical at the Peg an attempt to gain support and put pressure on ABA and 3DAAA to change their rules?

Hi Daryl, are you mad? Just kidding mate. I have enough walls to beat my brains against. BUT let me say that if there was a concerted effort or pole or vote that would allow these other styles to compete side by side then I for one would vote in favour of it. This is besides all equipment issues..that is another topic. All barebow styles being equal that use no sighting aids.

Well this is where String/Face Walking and Gap come into their own. But I should have made clear at the start that I was talking about a field archery (ABA or 3DAAA) round.

Part of the challange of the hypothetical is; if you have an objection to one of these barebow styles, say so AND explain why .

I am certainly having a go at the rules of shooting in ABA and 3DAAA for styles it precludes for no real valid reason.

Now Trad has been added to the list.

Has my hypothetical offered any cause to pause an automatic hand showing at the next big Trad gathering?

If a vote was taken at the last big Trad gathering asking if Stringwalkers, Facewalkers etc would be allowed to compete equally in any division based on the criteria that is presented in the hypothetical how do you think it would have turned out?

Troy, what trad gatherings are you referring to?

Hypothetical; a club trad shoot is hosted; competitors register and on the registration form they fill in the bow and shooting style. Once registered the competitor cannot change the bow or shooting style. Competitors do not know the range layout.

Range setup; five targets in the scrub at unmarked distances; five targets; unmarked distance behind a screen with a ten second time limit; running target at varying distances, five arrows, each arrow from a different shooting peg; five aerial targets and a speed round, five targets set up in a staggered pattern ranging from five to thirty metres with a thirty second time limit.

Would a string/face walker competitor cop it sweet or spit the dummy?

Daryl.

[perry]

I have taken this thread as one designed to get folks thinking about Barebow / Traditional archery and the alternate barebow shooting systems that are out there and their place in the Australian Archery scene. It also asks genuinely I feel, for the reasons why individual archers object to these alternate techniques alongside the predominate Instictive technique in Australain Traditional Archery.

The Gap, String Walking and Face Walking techniques are being used in competition by near 100% of the top Champions in the Archery disiplines that recognise them. Some of these champions have brought to prominence in recent years through there marketing of Instuctive DVD's. Oversea's forums are full of folks with an intense interest in these alternate barebow shooting systems. I believe a wave could be on the way that will not go away.

I started in FITA and was exposed to and accepted these techniques decades ago. I have also given String Walking and Gap Shooting a fair shake. I have incorporated some of the lessons from them into my shooting form over the years. If I ever redevelop an interest in IFAA or FITA field again I will redevelop a Gap system.

Drifting off topic a little BUT equipment is tied into this discussion - I am aware of 3DAAA cabon, alloy rule that was recently introduced. I like to consider myself a forward thinker and fair minded. Afterall I am fond of saying that Traditional Archery has always reflected the state of the art technology of the day.

I know IBO in the USA can have hundreds of Trad shooters in their comps with archers using a wide variety of equipment and styles. They have the numbers of archers to justify seperating alloy and carbon arrows from wood arrows, elevated arrow rests etc.

Australia does not have large numbers of Trad shooters competing in 3DAAA comps which are based on the IBO format. I think it was a mistake for 3DAAA to introduce this as I feel it erodes the divisions original intent to satisfy a small number of archers who desire carbon arrows. Carbon arrows belong in Australia's other trad bow 3DAAA division -Recurve Unaided- a barebow division where carbons are the arrow of choice.

In the context of 3DAAA comps and Gap shooting I see the carbon arrow affair as a bigger deal than alternate barebow shooting techniques having a place as an improvement in accuracy is due to an archer working on perfecting his chosen system. Add light weight carbon arrows to the mix where longer point blank ranges can be expected than acheivable with wood arrows and gaps shrink, errors in distance judgement become less critical and an archers scores climb. Leave wood arrows alone. Enough of the old skills are gone or diluted now.

I have not competed for several years and missed my chance at a say with the 3DAAA executive who in the past I have found to be open to contributions from members and have furthering the 3DAAA trad division at heart - will be rectifying this as family and other interest commitments fade, I miss my 3DAAA trad comps.

I'll sit back and think a little on giving an further opinion on whether 3DAAA and ABA have a need to recognise the alternate shooting systems. First thought is that they are well catered for by Archery Australia and the membership base in Australia is not broad enough to create much demand for another governing body to cater for these archers at this moment.

However I stated earlier that these alternate systems are increasingly popular oversea's and a wave may well be on the way, I hope the executive of the governing bodies are paying attention!

regards Jacko

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Daryl, I apologise for my tardiness but have been busy so will reply in the next day or two.

I will just quickly say that I did not mean to include trad events per se, I was more including the trad shooters that attend ABA and 3DAAA events. That was implied I agree with the way I wrote it, but not intended. Although I have no problem with a string walker competing against me in the same division for the same trophy with compatable equipment.

I very much like the type of round you suggested at the end of your post but will say more later.

Cheers

Troy

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry

... I feel it erodes the divisions original intent to satisfy a small number of archers who desire carbon arrows. Carbon arrows belong in Australia's other trad bow 3DAAA division -Recurve Unaided- a barebow division where carbons are the arrow of choice.

... Leave wood arrows alone. Enough of the old skills are gone or diluted now.

Yes. Wood arrows are a challenge that I enjoy. Having spent a few hours planing away at the footings of my next set there will be great self satisfaction in using them from a bow I made myself. There is something about shooting stuff that is the product of your own hands.

[Chase N. Nocks]

The reply I spent 2 hours today drafting was literally 1 sentence from the end when we had a power outage. None was saved...stupid stupid bugger!!

The worst part is that most of it was shear genius.

I will reply in smaller blocks...so depressed.

[greybeard]

Auto save works well.

Daryl.