Radiused shelves vs Square Shelves

[Brumbies Country]

On another thread Longbow Steve said:

Hi Simon, The radiused shelf gives you room for error when it comes to bow hand vertical pressure inconsistencies and or string hand errors.
Imagine rocking the bow forward vertically 5-10 degrees, a square shelf will show up in arrow flight as a low knocking point and porpoise to the target, a radiused shelf can still deliver a straight flying arrow on minor errors.
Better start a new thread if you need to discuss further . Steve

This is something that simply hasn't come into my reckoning until Steve mentioned it. I was pondering why I currently shoot an inexpensive off the shelf longbow better than custom made alternatives and felt that I reached a point of draw with the off the shelf bow the weight of which seems to establish a more constant draw length, but I can see, given that I have some bow arm rotator cuff problems, that may not permit the degre of bow arm stability that I'd like, that a radiused shelf may be of some significance towards an improvement.

Simon

[clinton miller]

same with a radiused strike plate.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I radius both the shelf and sight wondow of my bows. With my self bows I ensure that the arrow only contacts the bow at one small point and off the top of my top bow hand finger.

Jeff

[longbow steve]

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Hi Simon, I look at Joes bows and wonder how he can shoot as well as he can. At the Nationals my apexed shelf raised a few eyebrows

[longbowinfected]

I have had the privilege of using Steve's bows with a flat and an apex........every flat has been apexed. They go better. There is also much less surface friction from the very go get.
All my Steve bows also go well because I tune my arrows to the bow and I can as a consequenceshoot cock feather in when I shoot three fletches. I mainly shoot four small low fletches most times now.

Kevin

[Stickbow Hunter]

All my Steve bows also go well because I tune my arrows to the bow and I can as a consequenceshoot cock feather in when I shoot three fletches.

Why would you want to shoot cock feather in though?

Jeff

[Brumbies Country]

Some very good comparitive photos there Steve. Yes, given your outlining of the relative advantage of the radius shelf I too wonder how Joe shoots so well. I shot with him at the first Morwell nationals and was in at an adjoining group at Diamond Valley the year before. I think his absolute consistency stands him well enough to have shot the impressive scores he does but in hands of lesser mortals I now realise that a square shelf is likely to be less forgiving.

Simon

[longbowinfected]

Jeff, the point is, on some bows and for some archers it works really well.
If your spine is correct, because of the bending of the arrow around the handle there is no negative contact between the bow and the fletching. On all my bows it does not matter which side I put the cockfeather. But if I test groups doing it both ways, cockfeather in is marginally tighter over three bows with every set of arrows.

Arthur Fisk and Steve F taught me that and it really works for my rig.
Other folks different strokes.

Kevin

[Stickbow Hunter]

Strange Kevin, but if it works....!

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

I see a number of traddies who do shoot cockfeather in, not the greater number and not by occasional accident....when I notice, I ask and they seem pleased to meet someone else who does.

A lot of cherished beliefs should be tested rather than merely accepted. I am a "the glass is half full type" guy but with a "what if?..."twist. Many beliefs held true are real, some are not. Here I am referring to that relating to my setup/usage and not others.

I used to think folk shooting alloys had a great advantage over those shooting timber arrows and accepted the common belief. I now know that for me, using woods not only feels better but all my PBs in target and field are with timbers. It just took a lot of thinking, study, testing and practising.

Kevin

[Brumbies Country]

When I heard Arthur Fisk talk about it at Orange last January it made sense and I'll now try it again off a radiused shelf. I have empathy with the glass half full approach. When I get a moment I'll send you a PM re the FITA ranking thing with wooden arrows. I'd really like to get into that 2010 and recognise I ned to know a fair bit more anbout the process.

Simon

[Glenn]

If your arrows are tuned to your bow it shouldn't make any differance if you shoot cock feather in or out. Kev Whiting showed me that in the mid 70's and he was spot on, haven't bothered with it for years when out hunting and need a quick shot. If I am shooting and field course with wooden shafts and that's all I shoot I shoot cock feather out because I set my arrows up with the rifts of the grain pointing back to me on the bottom of the shaft. So with wooden shafts there is a top and a bottom for right and left hand shooters....Glenn....

[longbowinfected]

The next thing that mucks a lot of longbowers up is having the wrong nocking point.
On all my bows I have shot bare shaft moving my uper nocking point from one inch higher than square to one inch below square until it is just right. For me it is 3.5mm above square.
If you do not get that right you push the arrow hard down against the shelf during the loose which then bounces the arrow upward. The magical nocking point is diferent for most folk and should be tested without feathers not guessed at. When you have arrows tuned to a bow with the correct nock point with a minimal radiused shelf sweet things are more likely to hapen with good form. I get so little sign of wear that I do not even glue any material on the shelf, just a small bit of thin leather on the striker/horizontal section of the sight window.
I do not use two nocks. I do not use brass nocks as they pinch and wear the serving / string.

Works for me. Improved my game. experiment and find your optimum setup.

Kevin

[Stickbow Hunter]

A lot of cherished beliefs should be tested rather than merely accepted. I am a "the glass is half full type" guy but with a "what if?..."twist. Many beliefs held true are real, some are not. Here I am referring to that relating to my setup/usage and not others.

Kevin,

I really don’t think that is of relevance in this case. I do admit though that I see no sense in purposely shooting with the cock feather in; in fact I think if you have to do that to get your best results then there is a problem in your set up somewhere. Anyway I am not about to try and change anyone’s mind on the matter as it obviously works for you and some others and that is what counts.

The purpose of this post was really to give a caution to anyone who, after reading the comments above, decides to try this method of shooting with the cock feather against the bow rather than the shaft feathers. This same caution is for those shooting four fletch arrows and not worrying about which way they nock the arrow – this is only relevant to wood arrows!

This caution relates to what Glenn mentions in his post above; there is a right and wrong way to make and shoot wood arrows. Adding to this there is in fact only ONE right way to make and shoot a wood arrow.

The reason there is a top and a bottom on an arrow for right and left hand shooters is one of safety. Refer to the following thread as to why this is so important (saves me retyping my bit out again). This whole thread is relevant to this discussion though.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... eed#p63870

The worse the quality is of your arrow shafts (how much grain run out the shaft has) the more important it is to ensure you make and shoot your wood arrows correctly.

If an arrow should break you want the back half going up and away from your bow arm!!!

So, if you wish to try shooting with the cock feather against the bow please ensure that you make your arrows to suit and have the rift on the top of your arrow pointing the correct way (towards the arrow head).

For those shooting four fletch please realize you still have only one correct and safe way of placing the arrows on the bow string.

Happy and safe shooting.

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

Why not make sure as best you can to only ever use top quality blanks with no grain run out?
I actually go to my supplier, visually inspect, weigh and spine 30-40 blanks out of the whole spined merchant select group [hundreds] to make a set of two dozen timber arrows for the next year. Pay that bit extra and take resonsibility for checking.....you are the one shooting.
I found it next to impossible to get such a set from hardwood blanks because of the extent of runout and spirality.

Kevin

[kimall]

An arrow shot with cock in will straighten quicker as the feathers are cupped towards the wind resistance as the arrow flexes away from the bow on the first bending motion and with cock out they are on an angle allowing the wind to go over them easier so less resitance.I use carbon or hardwood so dont bother with the grain issues.
Cheers KIM.

[otis.drum]

flat shelves look very ugly IMO, but is there any benefit to them?

[longbow steve]

flat shelves look very ugly IMO, but is there any benefit to them?

No there isnt any point to them other than thats the way alot of laminated bows were made in the early days of glass from what I have seen.

[Glenn]

When using overseas timbers such as POC and spruce you will always get the rifts of the grain pointing down one way on the top and the other on the bottom. So there is a correct way to make an arrow for a right or left handed shooter. The grain that you can see in these timbers is called true grain. With our timbers especially our hardwoods they don't have true grain but have what is called even grain and mostly you have to split the timber to find the grain, you can sight it if you know what to look for. Sleeper cutters use to split hardwood for sleepers for this reason, especially on the old days, they weren't sawn because they would last a lot longer. You will see marks in hardwood that people refer to as grain but they are merely growth rings and not grain. Shafts made out of hardwood need to be turned and spined on a spine jig to find the stiffest side which will indicate the direction of the spine in the shaft....Glenn.....

[longbowinfected]

Glenn, foresters and wood technologists still refer to the lines or bands of visible pores in hardwoods as "grain" when viewed from the side ut growth rings when viewed end on. What you say is very useful. Thank you for that.

Is it "given" that every POC arrow shaft "runs out"? If the growth rings are even from end on you can find blanks that do not run out markedly. Old growth POC is less likely to run out badly as faster regrowth timber.

The bands that you see in softwood are merely denser portions [winterwood] where the timber grows slower and less dense faster growing summerwood [more sunshine etc]. One normally sees the denser ring as darker. A set of one darker plus one lighter rings equals one year. Scientists can tell what climate was like with carbon dated timber back many years ago.

The rings of pores plus unpored section similarly is a year with the hardwoods.
Hardwood blanks are very likely to exhibit spirality or a twisting which comes to the surface....quite visible in some large hardwood transmission poles.

Kevin

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Well, I'm very happy with my flat-shelf Hills, and my Bear Kodiak Hunter is also flat, and shoots well. I shoot good old-fashioned three-fletch, cock-feather-out, and it seems to work. Archery is what we want it to be, and we all go to varying degrees of complexity / simplicity as it works for us.

[Stephen Georgiou]

hello there fellows

I started shooting cock feather in about 18 months ago and found that I was getting better flight and more consistent groups but since getting a proper set of arrows have found that it does not matter at all. in or out they fly the same. I also had to opportunity to have a high speed video done of the arrow and how it reacted around the arrow shelf and was pleasantly surprised to see only the very tip of the feather coming in contact with the riser. the shelf contact and riser contact was for only the first inch of arrow flight and that was it! the shaft did not touch the bow anywhere else. This proved to me that having the right spine and setup on the bow makes all the difference. (sorry did not get to copy the video and only got to see it at the range.)

[longbow steve]

Thats exactly right Stephen, that inch of travel immedietly after release is where a radiused shelf comes into play.
As for cock feather in it shouldnt matter flight wise if your arrow is correctly spined/frequency matched as it will clear the bow well but Jeff and Glenn's point about grain is one take note of and one I have not considered. Steve

[Stephen Georgiou]

True enough Steve. The grain in an important element that must be considered. If you think of the grain of the arrow as offering a hinge to the arrow during release, the hinge should be parallel to the bow, allowing the arrow to pivot around the bow as it bends. That means that the arrow should be stiffer in the vertical plane, allowing for a consistent bend in the arrow.
If the grains are not aligned with the bow the arrow will bend at an odd angle, possibly causing contact as if passes the shelf.

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This image is from stickbow.com

[longbow steve]

Hi Stephen, I am aware of the edge grain orientation of the arrow shaft necessity but what Jeff and Glenn are refering to is the ring apex on the top and bottom surface of the shaft and which way it is pointing with regard to its proximity to the bow hand. according to your diagram if that arrow is on the string for a left handed shooter it would be wrong and dangerous if I am understanding Jeff and Glenn correctly?? Steve

[otis.drum]

yep steve, that arrows is for a right hander.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Longbow Steve and Otis are correct in what they are saying.

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

Other than broadheads nicking adjoining arrows or arrows in a quiver and that being diagnosed as the cause, what is the group experience of timber arrows breaking whilst drawing or loosing? What species were they? Were they correctly spined by the manufacturer or the archer?

Be interesting to know..... what is the risk factor?

Kevin

[otis.drum]

kevin, i agree this would be interesting, and i would say the risk is low. perhaps once in a lifetime. tis one of the rare times i would rather learn from others mistakes than find out for myself, as i usually do

...for the little extra effort to check and align the arrows correctly, it would be more than worth it to avoid an arrow sized splinter with 70lb behind it, exploding though the hand. i don't think it would be a neat little hole where the shaft entered

[longbowinfected]

It would more likely go through your wrist where all those blood vessels and nerve junctions join. I feel 50% safer shooting 49# compared to your whopper.
I do not believe it would be one in a million.
I have already had one response about I break and one split.
If I get a few more it will be more than anyone would want to experience.
I wonder relatively speaking how often a string breaks and what the injury risk is?

Kevin