Historic Bow and Pre-1900 Ruling

[Brumbies Country]

Quote from Dennis:

"Simon,

Continuing our off-topic discussion, it is precisely because of the 1900 ruling and what bows existed before and after, that we have the silly situation that it then behoves all bow checkers at shoots to be trained to recognise all the multifarious designs of bows prior to 1900 which ever existed on this planet on every continent.

For example, your own question regarding the possible existence of bamboo bows on the Indian sub-continent as a criterion for the possibility of getting an all-bamboo bow through shoot rules demonstrates the shortcomings of this definition.

Suppose I am a bow checker and I say to you that all-bamboo ELB designs did not exist anywhere before 1900 simply because I have never heard of such a thing, do I simply take your word for it or do I allow you the benefit of the doubt in the face of possible/probable challenge from a close contestant especially if you score well? Remember, on the day, I may have a great many bows to check and you must pay a fee to challenge my call if I do not decide in your favour and possibly may not be allowed to shoot until the matter is resolved. Does the resolution committee then adjourn for a couple of weeks to research the matter independently of your assertion, or does it take your assertion at face value?

Will ABA then issue a catalogue of all acceptable bows to all bowcheckers at every shoot. The IFAA listing which Grahame posted shows very few of all the known historical bows. By definition, ANY bow existing before 1900 is eligible, even if it is not depicted or described in the existing shoot rules.

The rule allows only known historical bows - or replicas - and not variant bow designs BASED on an historical bow. These bows are NOT actual historical bows. They are variants or combinations of historical designs. I don't think anyone has thought of this yet. The wording of the definition is poorly drafted.

Who knows all of them? Who can? Must one prove the historical existence of one's bow before one registers?

Lack of a bit of thought on this matter by the deciding ABA committee opens a potential can of worms it could have avoided. I do not for any instant think the decision was made out of bloody-mindedness. I just think they were badly advised on this matter, and I don't think IFAA are any better.

At this juncture, I suggest that this thread has sufficiently diverted from Beleg's original thread that perhaps it should be separated into a new thread if everybody is agreeable and want to continue discussing it further.

Regards,

Dennis La Varenne"

Morning Dennis and Grahame

There was a fair bit of debate on this on US trad forums when IFAA first introduced this division. Personally I thinks it's good that there is a division that encourages us to think about the history of these bows and personally I'm getting a real kick out of researching it and shooting these types of bows.

Grahame is right in so much as the onus is on the archer to produce the written supportive proof. The guys doing the ABA inspecting are mostly compound shooters and to be honest aren't in a position to evaluate the authenticity other than reading what you bring along in support. I can't see much problem in a bit of variation long as the bow meets the general rules. I've made two hickory versions of the Wampanoag (Sudbury) American Indian bow captured in Massachusetts circa 1630. One has the handle off centre, as depicted in the museum specimen. The other is centre. Can't see a bow inspector having a problem with either long as I'm shooting off the hand, the arrows are wood and the string is dacron. Can't see too many variations on an ELB .

We had 6 guys shooting this division at the ABA Nationals. Like a band of brothers and such was the interest I reckon there will be more next year. Having said that I believe the onus is on the bow inspectors to check documentation.

Regards

Simon

[longbowinfected]

Why not simply have a centralized pre approval system by committee each quarter and issue a stick on certificate but place the onus on carrying the docs around? or is that a bigger problem? Excuse my ignorance at ABA rules/culture.

Kevin

[Stephen Georgiou]

Hello there fellows. Its been a while since I have posted due to personal stuff. I have a strong opinion on this subject and hence my need to have my two bobs worth.

The traditional bow or more accurately, "traditional recreated bow" has to fall into a category that will allow fairer levels of competition.

A good bow of any type will shoot well in the hands of a good archer and this is my point. For club level competitions we can leave well enough alone and have laminated and un-laminated classes in longbow and recurve.

With the international classes the test is the archer and not the equipment so the less variation the better.

When it comes to longbow, reflex/deflex, flat laid, 1 2 or 3 piece don't seem to offer a great advantage so to make it easier why not allow the competition to sort out what bow shoots best? Surely once someone turns up with a bow that shoots better that the one they used the previous comp will cause others to try the new type and therefore keep food on the table of the bowyers.

This also goes for arrow selection. I have been shooting hand made arrows by Steve Wallis and believe that they out perform any alloy or carbon arrow that I have ever shot so the whole question of arrow materials becomes pointless.
The most important part of setting up is having everything matched so the material the arrows are made of are of little importance.
Having said this, wood arrows are what we should aim for as they put the sport into everyone's hands as the price can be whatever you want when it comes to wood arrows.

Finally, lets look at what we are trying to achieve with traditional archery in Australia.

Community Spirit
One of the common goals that I have found talking and travelling to different clubs is that the feeling of belonging and friendship that is offered freely. We have a growing community of competitors and hunters with many support groups surrounding them providing support, facility and equipment. Many families make a living from within our group. How fantastic is that!

Links to the Past
We have a growing number of artisans who are showing the way to the recreation of many aspect of the past that led us to where we are today. Without the skills of the craftsman of the past we would not have been able to colonize new lands and feed ourselves so keeping these skills and lifestyles alive are an important part of being who we are now.

Simplicity
Remember to keep it simple. for example. bread is made from flour, salt, yeast and water. Check the packet from the supermarket and see if you can find a loaf with less than 20 separate ingredients.
Lets not do this to traditional archery. The simpler the better.

Comradeship
I feel proud to be counted amongst the numbers of archers and artisans I have met at traditional tournaments.
Feeling at home amongst strangers "at first" is a wonderful thing. Any way we can promote this to others can only help us. Lets not ever become elite or above the friendship of others. We have started on the right foot so lets keep going.

Competition
This is my thing. I love competition and getting the opportunity to compete against like minded skilled men and women presses all my buttons.
Traditional archery competitions held by a few clubs, in my experience, in Victoria NSW and QLD are getting it right. The comps are fun and definitely check the skills of the competitors.
The likes of ABA, FITA, IFAA, 3DAAA, IBO etc. are catering for a very large number of variations within their existing competitions and are used to complication. If they want to impose certain restrictions with their particular competition, LET THEM.
If you want to have a simpler form, more in line with the whole picture of traditional archery, I suggest that you contact a trad club and get involved.

Craft Guild
Lastly, The craft of Traditional Archery is one area we have yet to give the credence that it deserves. The traditional archery hall of fame has a crafters guild that is being promoted but still does not get the recognition it deserves. I would like to see a national register of guild members and the skills they possess so that we as a group can further support them by purchasing their wears. If someone knows of such a register if they could let me know.

Anyway I thinks that my 2 bobs worth.
Stephen Georgiou

[Brumbies Country]

Why not simply have a centralized pre approval system by committee each quarter and issue a stick on certificate but place the onus on carrying the docs around? or is that a bigger problem? Excuse my ignorance at ABA rules/culture.

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Much as I enjoy ABA shoots I have to say finding rules, let alone having a centralised committee approve things is not that easy within the ABA set-up. If you go to an official shoot within a particular branch, say Southern NSW and ACT you get the same bow inspectors generally so once you have got your bow etc and validation they've got a pretty good memory for what you've presented before. At the ABA Nationals I do feel they need to have an inspector who dioes have a strong feel for and knowledge of this division.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Can't disagree with anything you've said here Stephen about traditional archery. I too enjoy the trad shoots I get to. Happen to like the concept of the Historic bow. Can use it at trad shoots as a self bow and ABA as a historic bow. Enjoy both forms of competition. From now on also using the same type of bows for longbow FITA field. Disadvantage yes against fibrglass laminated longbows, but still a self-challenge.

Simon