FOC

[Stickbow Hunter]

All I can say is those fletches are as ugly as - suits the shafts I guess.

Jeff

[Troy D. Breeding]

I thought the same thing when I first show them. Now that I used to them i laugh every time I see someone shooting those gaint 5.5" feathers.

Troy

[perry]

Fella's any insight's into why it is other Fletch Profiles that have a point near or at the rear of the Fletch are noisy in flight and what is it that makes this profile quite compared to the other profiles that have a feature a point and not a rounded profile ????

regards Jacko

[perry]

I worry more about Fletching Height than Length. I use 4" Fletch's cut to 3/4" high in a Parabolic Profile and they have worked well for me.

regards Jacko

[kimall]

I have a finished arrow combination worked out.65-80 White tail shaft or Beman 300 both work.
700 grain total weight, 400 point weight 30 inches long FOC 30% and 175-180 through the chrony.
I ended up cutting about 10mm to much off so when I buy a full doz I know exactly the length I need to cut them.
I tried some small feathers made from 3 inch parabolics but not the turbulator yet I will try that toomorrow.
Cheers KIM

[Brigsy]

Its ok for you kim your off work.I had to do the family thing today so now i am falling behind and you have all theses little secrets up your sleeve.

[kimall]

Trust me mate I would love to be going to work tomorrow thats for sure my wound is killing me today.I drilled out the hole to the right size in the back of the 100 grain insert and tapped it to take a field point I ground down to about 70 grains this easy gives 250 for a b/head combo and the 100 grains brass and the 70 gives you about 400 hundred grains.Easy mate no more secrets..:)The guy at the hardware shop hides when I come in as he knows it wont ever be a simple prob I come with.
SO Stop sooking...

[Bent Stick]

Thanks fella's a great thread and boondies of expertise from your observations and experimentation on this subject I am finding it informative and interesting keep up the good work

[kimall]

Bent I spent a fair while this afternoon reading a similiar thread on Trad gang from Ed that has about 40 pages I am up to about 25 and it is so interesting to see the things that can make a differance.
Cheers KIM

[Troy D. Breeding]

Kim,

I had alot of the same problems when I started trying to up my point weight. I solved the problem by making my one steel adpts.

Worked up a set of steel adpts by grinding a taper to the end of a screw-in fieldpoint then epoxying on a glue-on type field point.

Been using heavier screw-in points to make heavy adpts.

Yesterday I made 12 adpts out of 300gr screw-in fieldpoints and produced 280gr steel adpts.

I use 250 screw-in fieldpoints to make 225gr adpts

It will take me afew minutes to upload the pics to photobucket. I'll show the pics in a short.

Troy

[Troy D. Breeding]

Perry,

Ed will most likely come in later and give you the ups and downs of the fletching. Thats one area i havn't got to do much testing on. I'm just following his lead on it.

Troy

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

I notice that Troy still has some offset on his fletching. The A&A pattern is best applied as a straight fletch. The reduced noise is a result of the feather's dead-square rear cut, which reduces turbulance, Putting them on in a staright fletch further reduces the sound of the arrow in flight. The Turbulator disrupts the laminar air flow, which increases air pressure on the fletching, allowing a reduced amount of fletching to exert the same amount of pressure to stabalize the broadhead.

With field points, and properly bare-shaft tuned, the higher EFOC and UEFOC arrows shoot as accurately at 40 meters (that's as far as I've tested them) as a fletched shaft; and that's been tested with a HooterShooter, All the fletching required is enough to stabalize whatever broadhead you use. The windsheer of the individual broadhead and the quality of your release will determine the minimum amount of fletching required. I have a really poor release. On a chronograph I get about 5 fps shot to shot variation because of my release. With the high MA broadhead I use the 2 1/2" four-fletch is enough to stabalize the broadhead under all wind conditions.

I have a small write-up on how I work up the correct size of the fletching. As soon as I can locate it I'll add it as a post.

Ed

[Troy D. Breeding]

Kim,

Maybe this will help you a tad on making heavier point weights. The pics pretty well tell it all.


As you can see in this pic i chuck the point in the drill and grind a basic taper with the bench grinder.


Next I use a file to true the taper.


I used 250gr field points to make six 225gr adpts.


This adpt started with a 300gr fieldpoint. Finished adpt weight was 280grs.


Compare the difference in the two adpts. 225gr and 280gr.


I used the 225gr adpt, a 225gr glue-on fieldpoint from Tuffhead Broadhead Co. and dropped in afew fishing line lead sinkers to make this point. The pic is a little fuzzy but you can see it finished out at 485grs.


This point used a 280gr adpt, 225 fieldpoint and afew fishing sinkers. This will be my next point to try and break the 40% UEFOC barrier. 525grs is one heavy point.

Troy

[Troy D. Breeding]

I'd use a straight fletch if I had a straight clamp.

Troy

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Okay, here's a step by step on getting the right size A&A fletching.

I tune the fletching to give the smallest fletching that will stabilize the broadhead under all shooting conditions. I prefer the A&A fletching pattern, which utilizes a turbulator forward of the fletching. Here's the process I use to tune the A&A fletching, but the same process works for determining the minimum size for any fletching pattern. Just as when bare shaft tuning, finding the minimum amount fletching is a step by step process.

1. Once you feel that you have the bare shaft tuned correctly, mount a matched-weight broadhead on one of the shafts. First use what you are absolutely certain is ample fletching to stabilize the broadhead and VERIFY that the fletched-shaft/broadhead has identical impact to the field-point tipped bare shaft. You can use any fletching pattern you like for this step.

2. Once your shaft tuning is verified you can begin tuning the fletching. Switch to the A&A fletching pattern on the broadhead tipped shaft, starting at about 5” length if you are using 3-fletch, or 4” if using 4-fletch. DO NOT add the turbulator yet. Shoot the arrow several times and check the flight stability.

3. If all is well, begin to gradually decrease the length of the A&A fletchings until the point where you FIRST see a slight instability in the arrow’s flight. Be sure to shoot several shots before making a decision on the flight stability, and it helps if you can have another person also watching for flight instability too.

4. Now add the turbulator and check to be sure the flight is again completely stable. If addition of the turbulator does not completely stabilize the arrow’s flight increase the fletching length by ¼” and check again, with the turbulator in place.
Many factors affect what's the minimum A&A fletching that will work FOR YOU. A big factor is quality of your release (mine’s poor). Other major factors are the type of broadhead (how much wind shear it generates) and the amount of FOC on the arrow and the shaft’s length. Your draw length and whatever length shaft you are using are also factors. At a given amount of FOC, the longer the shaft the less fletching required; because of the lengthened rear steering arm. Your draw length vs. shaft length affects the point of maximum shaft flex upon release.

5. Once you feel you have the fletching at the minimum size for stability there’s only one task remaining; you will need to check arrow flight on a windy day. When checking for flight in windy conditions you will want to take shots as many angles to the wind, but at a minimum check the arrow’s flight in a full cross-wind and both quartering with and quartering into the wind. I’ve not found any problem when using the high MA single blade broadheads, because of their very low wind shear factor, but many of the wide-narrow broadheads require an increase in fletching area to achieve flight stability in quartering wind conditions.

This sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it is a one time job for a given arrow setup. It’s analogous to a working up the very best handload for a rifle; and cheaper and easier to accomplish than finding the best rifle handload too!
I hope the foregoing is coherent enough to be understood. If not lets kick the subject around a bit and see if we can clarify anything that’s in doubt.

Ed

[kimall]

Thanks Troy an ED.Troy I am happy with the 400 point weight as it makes the arrow about 11 grains per pound and I am not keen to go much more then that so until I get my hands on some lighter shafts I will leave it at what I have.
Today I will start on the fletching so thanks Ed for the process I will see how it goes today.
Cheers KIM

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

I'll be watching for how it goes with the fletching, Kim. There are a fair number of folks using the A&A pattern fletching on EFOC/UEFOC setups now, all with great results. When you get it all finished a really interesting test is to soak the fletching in a bucket of water for several minutes (we've done up to 30 minutes) and then shoot it for point-of-impact against an arrow with dry fletching. Water seems to have no effect. The stiff sections of the very low profile feathers seems to totally resist any meaningful effect from water.

One other thing, they look so different that they draw a lot of attention from everyone who sees them!

Ed

[kimall]

So Ed in your experience what feather is best to start with to cut down and the long leading edge should it be a straight line or curved like on a normal feather.I will wet them when I get them right dry.
Cheers KIM

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

I cut my fletches from full length feathers. The cut is straight on both the back and the taper, making a right angle triangle. That's one thing I really like; all you need to cut the feathers is a template (I cut mine from flat-sided plastic jugs) and a GOOD pair of scissors. I use pin-stripe tape, 1/32" wide (just under 1mm), for the Turbulator. It's available in rolls from most hobby supply stores, and all you want is a single rap around each arrow; placed 1/4" forward of the fletching. The 1/4" placement works best. We tried different widths and all sorts of placements, and even tried multiple Turbulators. Just one, at 1/4" forward of the leading edge of the fletching is best.

Ed

[kimall]

Thanks mate we got the arrow flying great this morning with 4 x 2 1/2 inch feathers cut from 3 inch feathers I had here.I was using a aztec b/head which is the biggest b/head width wise I had here and it shot where I looked out to 30 mtrs.I soaked the feathers in a bucket of water and found no differance in arrow flight as the feathers looked no differance even after multiple shots.This set up is amazing as even when the string caught my arm the flight looked terrible but still landed in the same spot.All testing was done with the b/head.Thanks again for your insite.
Cheers KIM
Also when listened to from half down range the arrow makes no noise..

[wishsong]

And I just bought 1000 5.5 High back banana feathers !
Oh man ! .... but thats ok .. I dig the swooshing sound .....

[Stickbow Hunter]

Oh man ! .... but thats ok .. I dig the swooshing sound .....

And I don't think you will miss any because of it either.

Jeff

[kimall]

I am in no way trying to change anyones elses opinion with what I am about to say because I dont really care how others do things if it suits them and works for them but I do want to point out how I feel about investigating the high FOC and smaller feathers.
These are hunting arrows I am talking about so dont need to fit in with any rules and regs.
While being stuck home for 3 weeks now with little I can do I have had the chance to watch many many bow hunting dvds both trad and compound.With modern technolegy we are able to see how the animals being shot at react to the shot and time and time again you see animals drop as the arrow approaches only to be struck high.On the longer shots being taken with compound I think if it was bow noise they would react sooner.Most times it is still good enough to do the job no worries but I think it shows that some game does hear the arrow coming and the the natural instint when they do is to duck and turn.So with this in mind if we can come up with a arrow set up that is quiet and I mean real quiet why not.If it means one less lost animal in my time hunting I will investigate the ideas even if it is outside the box so to speak from our normal way of thinking.Also anyone that is honest and has DONE a bit hunting other than rabbits will have had one or will one day have a shot that for whatever reason does not get the peno we hope for.And this can happen at close range just as easy as long so I dont think the old I dont take long shots line is relevant here at all.With this in mind if we can improve this area of our arrow performance on game why not? Again if it means one less lost animal in my hunting I will investigate.
So that is what I have done and will continue to do so testing and weighting(pun) up the positives v neg and if it works out better than the old way then I will change,mabey change totaly to the new way mabey just take on board some of what works but at this stage the only neg(if you can call it that) is that it does not fit in with what many would call TRAD.We have had many chats about that before so I wont revisit that but I dont see that a reason to stop moving forward.
One of the biggest advantages with the smaller feathers is the the fact they are rain proof I soaked the arrow in a bucket of water and just shot the arrows and had no differance in flight to the dry arrow.How many times have we had the old how do we shoot in the wet thread and yes we can get around it but if we can make an everyday set up that works wet,again why not.With the gear avail on line it is so simple to make an arrow that does all these things and it may be a bit of work the first time but you only have to tune one arrow and all the rest will be the same.
For those that dont want to change I am sorry if you have wasted your time reading this as I know it wont mean anything to you but to those that even are just toying with the idea give it a go you have nothing to lose.
Cheers KIM

[Stickbow Hunter]

First up, like you, I am very interested and concerned that I do what I can to effect a quick humane kill on the game I hunt.

In relation to feather noise; it is a non issue IMO as I don't take long shots. Remember also that any bow noise would reach an animal way before the very fastest arrow.

Also I am not interested in shooting carbon arras so much of your experimentation really isn't possible for those of us that choose to use wood arras. While I will never shoot the EFOC/UFOC arras I still have a reasonable FOC with my arras; especially if I am going after big game. I made up my own heavy heads years ago by putting a 5 degree taper on a taper hole filed point and then attaching my chosen head to that. When it comes to feathers I'll take the looks of a nice Shield Cut to one of those ugly A & A feathers (no offence intended Ed) any day. Even though I won't, don't or can't embrace some of these new ideas I don't for one second think that I am being unethical in my pursuit of game (I'm not suggesting anyone was saying that either).

For those that dont want to change I am sorry if you have wasted your time reading this as I know it wont mean anything to you but to those that even are just toying with the idea give it a go you have nothing to lose.

Not a waste of time at all Kim as this information is interesting and each of us can make our own choices as to what we do with the information.

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Hi All.

Just a comment. Turbulators have been around for a while and have been regularly commented on by people who shoot Flight or read about it. People who bind the leading edge of fletches have been turbulating the airflow - perhaps unintentionally. Target Archers have tended to choose smaller fletches - have a look at the arrows being shot in this post http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=11752. The first photo I posted.

[Brigsy]

I was hiding behind a big tree, to the side of the where kim was shooting and not only was the bow dead quiet but the arrow in flight was by far quieter than any of the others we shot. It really has to be seen to be believed or should that say heard to be believed.
chris

[wishsong]

Kimall ... I'll be very interested in what you come up with . I'm not really into EFOC etc as i find it pretty difficult with woodies but my 190 Ribbies go a long way to getting a bit more up front ... but the noise issue is of great interest to me .
i have previously read of turbulators elsewhere with great interest.

[kimall]

I am still sitting on the fence about the turbulator on my arrows not sure if it helps yet or not still testing but being able to go the smaller feathers makes the arrow so quiet in flight it seems strange at first to not hear the arrow as it leaves the bow.I also did some shaft strength testing while at it and will put these pics up tomorrow but I believe havingso much of the arrows weight at the front puts less stress on the shaft just behind the head because I shot the same arrow into a pine sleeper 3 times and the shaft was undamaged with b/heads buried to the ferrul on each hit.
Cheers KIM

[Troy D. Breeding]

Kim,

Your now seeing and understanding what Ed and I have.

I want say all this is for everyone. However, if your open mined and looking to improve your advantages when it comes to hunting then atleast give it a try.

So many people say FOC is a mute point for them since they shoot woodies. This however isn't true. One of my local mates here in Ohio has made a jig that allows him to drill a 3/16" hole 4" deep into the point end of his wood shafts. In this hole he epoxies a 4" piece of brass 3/16" rod.

If I understand him right, he is achieving somewhere around 25% FOC.

Troy

[longbowinfected]

I have shot longbow with 4 very short 2 inch feathers with a very low profile and tied them. I tied them because of Dr Eds comments on turbulation some time ago. I also use wraps. These arrows have been mainly Northern Pine, older POC, and a lot of naturally tapered bamboo. I also use screw in adapters and like Ian stokes sometimes use g nocks at the end in glued on sections of alloy tube. I also use very heavy points.

I shot bamboo arrows with all these features except the g nocks at the 2010 AA Nationals in target, clout and field and medalled just behind Ian in both clout and field but came third in the target. The conditions were very windy at times.

I have found that these arrows perform exceptionally well in windy and wet conditions. The small profile and four flights do not get moved sideways as much as standard arrows. The arrows with the heavy points and small flights may be positioned a couple of degrees off centreline but track absolutely straight. The ties act like turbulators but also do not allow the flights to absolutely lay flat in the pouring rain.

I have shot with woods and alloys at Nationals and World Masters and recently the NSW state Open Target with greater facility in tough conditions in the extremely bad conditions especialy reserved for Archery park at Homebush.

I now use Selley's Waterproofing aerosol on my flights and the overall performance is fantastic.

The arrows in Grahame's photo of Ian have the g nocks at the end. These nocks tend to autommatically move minutely to a self tuned position, ach one being slightly different, with some having one of the four feathers poiting to face the pass by. I have also found that perfectly tuned arows can be shot cock feather in on three flight arrows so having one flight in is not a problem with well tuned arrows

My scores and enjoyment increased drammatically as a cosequence of applying the knowledge expressed here and in particular discussing it with Grahame Amy and Ian Stokes, two great mates.

Kevin