Instinctive shooting method-your way of taking the shot

[Stephen Georgiou]

Hello there,
I am a bare bow recurve shooter who has always shot the instinctive method. The method I use is similar to the traditional hunter style that does not require a knowledge of the distance to the target.

When I take the shot for the first time at a particular distance I leave it up to my sub-conscience mind and more often than not I hit what I am looking at. What I mean by this is that although I might want to hit a bulls eye, I might have glanced at the head of some ones arrow or a small movement of paper or a dark spot on the target and find thats where my arrow ends up. And sometimes when my mind is clear I hit the bull.

To hit a static target takes great concentration, especially for men. Men have an innate ability to focus on a single point at great distance and when left up to the sub-conscience ensures a direct hit.
A little more on this theory, Have you gone to the fridge to look for the butter and then swear bind that it is not there? Then your wife walks over and pulls it off the shelf and at eye level and gives you that look? This is called domestic blindness and 90% of men suffer from this.
This trait is the same one that give us the ability to focus on a single point of aim. In the fridge a man has to look at every item and memorize its location and then once committed to memory will remember for life the locations of each item. The problem is some bugger comes and moves stuff around!!
The same goes for a messy shed. Men with a messy shed know where every nut and bolt are and even the location of a washer of a certain size in a particular jar because he put it there and remembers where he put it. As long as no one moves anything he will find it.

Women on the other hand see a broad landscape of color and shape and while thinking about taking the shot can be working out what they will do at work this week and work out some emotional problem of a friend while remembering what you have forgotten over the last week. Women have multitasking brains with the ability to do many things at once. To which end I am at a loss to explain..... I can only speak for my knuckle dragging brethren. If think that for women the job of concentration is more fluid and not so black and white as it is for men.

This has everything to do with how we perceive a prospective target. When you are setting up to shoot a static target, focus on a single point and maintain the picture of the shot in your mind. If you distract yourself by thinking of something else, like, how you are standing or your anchor point or draw length, walk away and start again. For an instinctive shooter all issues of form are fixed by shooting many arrows. I have never seen a native worrying over his stance when he takes a shot at a howler monkey up a tree, or if his knocking point was high enough when he shot the pig they had for dinner last night.

If the target is moving, your sub-conscience does all the calculations for you and you will hit what you aim at. You hear of hunters hitting bunnies on the run or shooting at a flash as a fox or dear runs by and scoring a hit.
Have you heard of the term of "shooting down the pipe" this comes from the feeling you get when you release the arrow and you know for sure that the arrow will hit the mark. This feeling is confirmation from your sub-conscience that you haven't stuffed up it's instructions. A good way of improving your instinctive shooting is to allow your body to respond to the whims of your sub-conscience. To do this, focus on a small point , do not look away from the point, draw your bow and release the arrow. Do this without making conscience decisions about bow adjustments. Think about this routine in the same way you would throw a stone or ball. Your body and muscles will start to form a memory and get confirmation of all the good shots from the feeling of "shooting down the pipe."

The beautiful thing about instinctive shooting methods is that If you change disciplines it will not effect the way you shoot a particular bow. Sighted shooting is a completely different process and as such you can freely move between disciplines without effecting the other.
I hope that these few thoughts I have put down invoke some discussion around traditional shooting methods and help new shooters realize that shooting a bow can be as simple as throwing a stone and that whatever bow you shoot you can be a traditional shooter by your manner and commitment to keeping your mind free to take the shot.

[Stickbow Hunter]

focus on a small point , do not look away from the point, draw your bow and release the arrow. Do this without making conscience decisions about bow adjustments. Think about this routine in the same way you would throw a stone or ball. Your body and muscles will start to form a memory

That about sums it up for me.

Jeff

[Stephen Georgiou]

thats great jeff. Obviously you have read this somewhere? Considering i have not read it are you implying that you don,t have anything to contribute to a discussion on instinctive shooting? Also considering that I am new to this site and was hoping to offer positive input to the sport and the welcome you have offered me is disappointing.

[kerrille]

what exactly do you want us to say you seemed to have summed it up quite well . I joined i club about 5 months ago and thay reckon you shouldnt shoot that way , so i tried there ways and i prefer instinctive.....Nev
P.S welcome to the site

[woody]

thats great jeff. Obviously you have read this somewhere? Considering i have not read it are you implying that you don,t have anything to contribute to a discussion on instinctive shooting? Also considering that I am new to this site and was hoping to offer positive input to the sport and the welcome you have offered me is disappointing.

Stephen,
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, and, as you yourself say , you are new to this site.

I would just like to point out that this subject has been discussed many times, in minute detail.

This site, and many other forums have a search function. If key words are entered, and the search done you can view many topics from past posts.

If jeff was a little brief in his reply, it's understandable.

I suspect Jeff is at the stage of his archery career when he doesnt have to read it in books

[Stephen Georgiou]

thanks for your clarification woody.....
I'll keep enjoying my sport and leave the politics of running a forum to the experts.

[woody]

No worries mate, its probably also a good idea to suss out who your talking to by checking out their profile details

( Jeff runs this site)

[longbow steve]

Welcome to the site Stephen, interesting thoughts on the subject.
What form of barebow recurve shooting do you participate in?
Steve

[Coach]

ROFLMAO
WOW dude , how much more input do you want ? People have been shooting this way for many years and there is only so much you can say ,,, Look at what you want to hit and shoot ! There is only so much you can dissect this method , and as Jeff has said , "thats how I do it " He was pretty much agreeing with you

[Stephen Georgiou]

Thanks again Woody for your advice. For your information I did read the profile and was aware that Stickbow was the boss. Lucky me to ruffle the fletches of someone so important so quickly. All I was trying to do was offer my perspective and to start some conversation on the subject. I have been shooting a bow as a loner for some time and have recently joined a club and thought that there might be something I could offer. If something I have written has caused some discomfort, I do apologise but I do believe that the heading of my post is suggesting that you might like to tell us what process you go through when taking a shot. It is true that you look at the thing you want to shoot and let go of the arrow but if this is all there is to it all the coaches would be out of business.
Part of me wanted to log off and not return but I think that a different perspective is probably healthy and that dealing with a forum like this could broaden and enrich my archery experience.

thanks to kerille and longbow steve for your welcome and positive response.
In answer to your question about what I shoot. I have a bear kokiak custom takedown 60lb @ 29" draw. A bow I have owned twice in 20 years. I also am a new owner of a 50lb longbow. We are getting to know each other...

[woody]

Dont worry about it Steve, Jeffs fairly tolerant, he puts up with me....

[CM Sackett]

and thought that there might be something I could offer.

...by basically listing the ingredients in a stick of gum in your very first post?

Offer your character... offer your class... offer your encouragement and comradery... offer your EAR first. These men are not floundering fools, in need of another's "expertise". They are men, covering every point of experience in archery, yet sharing the same point of patient, kind and wise character. Your view on shooting (in even greater detail) has been stated, argued and, as one gentleman pointed out, 'dissected' thousands of times... in just the last few years.

Want to stop being a loner? Work on being a friend (or "mate", as my friends here call it) more than being an "Expert". The world has few enough of the first... and landfill loads of the second.


CM Sackett

[losty]

It is true that you look at the thing you want to shoot and let go of the arrow but if this is all there is to it all the coaches would be out of business.

Coaches are in business to satisfy those who believe lifes more complicated than it really is. Welcome also to the site, there is a wealth of knowledge here at your fingertips.

[Stephen Georgiou]

CM
Very intersting. What group do you see yourself fit into? You have insulted my intelligence and betrayed your own by suggesting that I have taken the people on this site for granted. I have simply shared a few thoughts. If what I have offered is of no value to you then show me the respect one stranger owes another and instead of treating me like some sort of fool you could use a small amount of tact and show some of your class and friendship.

[CM Sackett]

Whatever level of class, tact, intelligence and experience I bring to the table is well known by far better judges of each. As for what I "owe" you, you have marched into an open camp of GOOD MEN like a hell-bent missionary among savages, and with your first two posts erected a pulpit, preached the "Truth" (to ad nauseum)... AND slapped the man who blazed the trail, built the camphouse and busts his **** to keep the welcome fire burning for all... a man whom I call friend (regardless of how he might regard me).

I owe you... nothing. I've dealt with you gently.

These friends of mine are tough as quarry saws, and can handle your childish attempt at 'let-me-show-you-ness' quite well. But before you try to jump in the middle of this Yank, ask some folks where you might land on your way out of the attempt.

No threat sir, just the last gentle warning you'll get.


Sackett

[Stephen Georgiou]

I did not come looking for a fight. I did not come to insult anybody. What has happend here is an unfortunate display of how not to deal with strangers. You do not know me and I do not know you. Unfortunately its a small world and one day we might meet.
I made no threats to you or your collegues yet you threaten me. This I find amazing and brave. dont bother responding to this as it will not be read by me.

[Coach]

What has happend here is an unfortunate display of how not to deal with strangers.

Yes it was , and you were the one that showed us that Now dont be afraid , and come back and talk Trad with us We are all entitled to a mistake or two God knows I have done it

[woody]

What has happend here is an unfortunate display of how not to deal with strangers.

Yes it was , and you were the one that showed us that Now dont be afraid , and come back and talk Trad with us We are all entitled to a mistake or two God knows I have done it

me too

[Stephen Georgiou]

thanks woody i thought that I had rabies or something...
Any way, here I am.
I have read alot of the posts over the last 24hrs and found it to be a great site and to miss out on this would have been a shame.
Again, thanks for your support.

[Stephen Georgiou]

ps. thanks as well coach

[jindydiver]

Welcome SG

I am wondering how you interpret Jeff quoting you and agreeing wholeheartedly as having "ruffled his feathers"? Yes, those are your words, not something he read elsewhere, making your assumptions way off the mark.


FWIW I still use a version of the gap method. I don't shoot the longbow enough, or at big enough ranges, to develop the innate knowledge of how it's arrows will fly that would allow me to truly say I shoot instinctively.

[Brumbies Country]

I too use a gap method though on good days I get closer to Howard Hill's split vision method and I think that might be interpreted as being close to instinctive. On 3D animal targets I find this works well. On FITA targets I get too conscious of looking for a gap and the end result is significantly worse.

Some may have seen this but there was an interesting US study where they got instinctive archers to shoot at a spot of light in a lit room. They then turned off the lights and again shot at the light spot. The degree of accuracy diminished significantly if I remember rightly (statistical difference ). The implication was, as I recall it, that in an instinctive method we still use subconcious peripheral reference points.

[looseplucker]

Hmmm, we always seem to disagree most about those things we've agreed on. Re-reading this thread I still don't know how it got so off track. Anyhow - I found the initial post to be interesting for, as a relative newbie to trad, it was interesting to read the perspective. It may even pique my interest in doing a search through the site to see what others have had to say in the past

As for my own shooting I have never broken it down to theory. I've used all sorts of weapons in civilian and military settings either aimed or instinctive and similar principles seemed to me to apply - it is an extension of your body and senses. When I used shotgun for skeet, sporting clays and down the line it was simply "your first look is your best look' - and that factored in speed of target, trajectory, sufficient lead, light etc. I've applied it to static and moving targets with the bow, and it seems to work.

I have found that the longer I delay the shot the more likely it will go astray.

[Stephen Georgiou]

This is the sort of healthy comments I was looking for. It is very easy to see what somene is holding in their hand but not what going on in thier heads. I saw this forum as a good way to find out how some of the more experienced fellows have developed their shooting styles.
Beginners coming into the TRAD shooting need a bit of early success in their shooting progress to hold thier interest long enough to form some social links. Buy shortening the learning curve of shooting thier bow will benefit the sport by keeping the drop off numbers to a minimum.
I might add that the club I joined "Yarra Bowmen" (great bunch of people I might add) has something like 25+ new TRAD bowman/Ladies. Alot of these people have come to the club beacuse of the simplicity of the weapons and the historical ties that this style offers. I myself came to the realization the my mothers family where from the Yeomans of Denstone England and that there are some strong ties I would not have investigated if not for the association with traditional bowmen.

[kerrille]

Ive done nothing but trad styl bows .when my son wanted to do it to instead of compound i got him instinctive by starting him of at 5 mtrs and slowly going back from there it wasnt long before he was getting 10 to12 '' groupings of 6 arras at 20mtrs and hes getting better all the time...nev.

[woody]

The foundation of good shooting of any method is good form.

Good form is vital to shoot by "feel".

My personal definition of "instinctive" shooting is that its sub concsious gap shooting.

Experience from past shots allows the "feel" of sub-councsious gap calculation without the thinking.

To base your next shot from what the previous shot experience has taught you will depend a large part on how precisely your shooting form is duplicated, shot after shot after shot.

A solid stance, precision anchor point, good bone to bone form, back tension and follow through is essential.

Personally. I like to hold at full draw for a couple of seconds to let the "feel" solidify.

Byron Ferguson, in his book Become the Arrow, visualizes the arrows arc in flight, as he's staring out the spot. A more advanced way of letting the "feel" get right on.

When your on fire and cant miss, its like you have tunnel vision, all you can see is the mark and you know your on before the string is loosed.

I believe this single minded focussed concentration, excluding all else, is what some eastern religions describe as a Zen state of mind.

This is a state of mind thats hard to achieve and needs a lot of quality practice before it happens.

I think the difference between most of us, me included, and the legends like Hill , Ferguson, Pearson and Bear, was they had the ability to get into this state of mind at will.

[kimall]

I will chime in with my 2 cents and will go against what most say is the holy grail.I DO NOT burn a whole in the target on a small point that I want to hit.It is not something that I came up with it it was in a book that I got that was about how to overcome target panic.Its main point is if you are concentrating so hard on the target you wont see the flight of the arrow so the mind doesnt get as much info to work with making it subconsious.SO I look where I want to hit but then allow my focus to widen as I take the shot and watch the arrow fly and not just looking at the point of impact.This is very much instintive in that at no time is the range even thought about and all shots are taken the same.The downside is you do need to practise at the ranges you are going to hunt at to program the mind but if you watch the arrow more it will happen much quicker.Anyway it wont work for all but it was very good for me and with a lot of close form work I am shooting much better.
Cheers KIM

[Sparra]

I have always considered myself an instinctive shooter but after reading the first post i am not so sure...I consentrate on the spot,a few deep breaths and draw...Now at this point there is always something in my head that makes me adjust the shot,whether it is up,down or sideways and most of the time I miss the spot I was concentrating on,only by a small margin although the margin increases as the shooting distance does..For my next few sessions I will try not too second guess my initial instincts and see what happens which is a lot harder to do than some may think....Although this subject has been covered many times I have never given it too much thought until now so thanks for bringing it up again...
Cheers...Sparra

[Coach]

The trouble with some , is that they do second guess , and that is where the failing is . Just let your brain and hand do the work , and it will come together , don't think about it too much . Never second guess your brain , it knows best

[losty]

I have to second Kimall's words after i too find i shoot better if i dont burn a hole in the spot im looking at.