Instinctive shooting method-your way of taking the shot

[Stephen Georgiou]

Apology time... Thanks to Mick I have re-read my initial post and the subsequent response from Jeff and feel I probably jumped to the wrong conclusion.

So I offer a whole hearted apology to you Jeff.

My only excuse for myself is that I have always been a bit of a hot head.

Regards Stephen G.

[longbow steve]

Hi Stephen, Thanks for sticking around.
I utilise all methods of shooting. As I am predominantly a target shooter at ranges up to 60m the gap method is unbeatable. When I attend trad shoots i switch over to a more instinctive method of shooting, trusting my brain to centre my shot and get the tragectory right. Confidence in your shot is key to success regardless of what method you use.
Sticking with the same bow is good, or atleast adjusting arrow weights on all your bows so they all shoot instinctively the same. Steve

[Steven J]

Stephen,

It seems that most archers here shoot instinctively and I am no different. I look at the target and concentrate on that, but I am also conscious of the arrow on the bow and can see this also in my vision. Sometimes I might shoot a target round without splitting my vision to my arrow and find that I shoot much the same. Splitting my vision to include the arrow somehow gives me more confidence.

If my concentration drifts and I start thinking about other archers shooting or my last arrow that I stuffed up, then my current arrow will go wild too. If my concentration wanders I need to start the whole procedure again, and sometimes this includes pulling the arrow from the quiver

As Steve suggests, sticking with the same equipment is a good idea and if I switch bows, I will do so for at least a few months. Lately I have been shooting 30lb most often, but if I go to shoot outside on the field range I will go back to the 50lb longbow without really noticing much difficulty.

It is important to have a spine and weight matched set of arrows so that each arrow flies the same as its mates.

Welcome to the site - Steve

[Stickbow Hunter]

Stephen,

I kinda figured you jumped to the wong conclusion, apology accepted and it is water under the bridge. I am also glad you stuck around as those on the site are a good bunch of people. By the way welcome to the site. I try and post a welcome to any new members but I slipped up in your case, sorry.

In those couple of lines where I quoted you, you summed up how I have been shooting for close on 25 years - hand eye co-ordination. I too like to stick to the one bow but I find when you shoot instinctive it is rather easy to change bows and still shoot quite well.

Not sure if you have ever read his books or seen his video but Fred Asbell explains instinctive shooting about as well as anyone. I don't shoot the same as he does but the concept is the same.

Jeff

[Stephen Georgiou]

Thanks Jeff I'll Follow up the book because as you can tell I'm rather interested to find out as much as I can.

[Stephen Georgiou]

Thanks for your welcomes steves. We better be careful we might reach plague proportions

[longbow steve]

Thanks for your welcomes steves. We better be careful we might reach plague proportions

I think we have just caught up with the Jeffs on the sight.

[little arrows]

Hey Stephen
I had a bit of chuckle when I read your first post - very discript and apt indeed, my Steve and I have similar little "finding" problems, and yes I can seem to multitask when I need to, but the thing is sometimes when shooting, and the mind starts a wandering about other things like work, you can still duff the shot. So I'd have to say I still need to focus on the shot, oh, and being blonde doesn't help me either. Everyone has their bad days too, when can't hit a damn thing, but you get that.......
Sue

[Stephen Georgiou]

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post little arrow.

The references that I made to the differences between men and women and how we process information and our surroundings came from an idea I formed from reading a number of books on relationships and the misunderstandings that happen when men and women communicate. I must say that I am far from perfect. In fact I am probably worse for the knowledge. What happens now is that I respond to certain situations and knowingly make the same mistakes and then kick myself for doing it.

Anyway, back to archery. I think it was coach and woody that have made key statments in relation to instinctive shooting and what might give us the key to become better at it.

Quote "INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING IS SUB-CONSIOUS GAP SHOOTING"

When I thought about this I was able to get over myself and start to use gap shooting to refer to the location of the bow and arrow in my field of vision. Initially my shooting was worse as I was shifting my gaze too and from the target and the tip of the arrow. But after this inital routine I was able to go back to looking souly at the target with a marked improvement.

What this means is that the same processes used in training people to gap shoot can be extended to teach instinctive.

If someone has a reference text on gap shooting can they post its name on this post. Thanks.

[Moss]

I would definetally agree that gap shooting helps compliment instinctive,at first when i tried instinctive shooting the first time i picked up a longbow i just couldn't get it so i just whent to gap shooting but then when i got my second longbow I tried it again after about a month of gap shooting and found it a piece of cake. The brilliant part of it is the more you want to hit the target the more you focus on the target therefore your actual chance of hitting the target increase.

[Stephen Georgiou]

I agree.
I found the same thing moving between the longbow and the recurve. i also found that by matching the correct arrows with each bow I was able to get similar performace from the different bows (sort of...) I still have a long way to go with the longbow. In terms of gap shooting, The 60lb recurve shoots point on the target at 42m where the 50lb longbow shoots point on at 28m. i use the same anchor point and grip on both bows.
I have been told that the longbow a "korean job" is reasonablly slow in comparrison to the recurve which puts out a 400 grain arrow at approx. 220 feet per second.

"Calculated by timing the flight of the arrow from release to impact at ninety meters subtracting the time the impact noise takes to get back to the point on release"
speed of sound at sea level = 1,116.43701 feet per second.
eg. from release to target time 1.6 sec - .26 sec (time for sound to return from target) = 1.34secs = 220 feet per second. Thought I'd throw this in for those who would like to work out how fast the average speed for their bow is.!!

[Brumbies Country]

I agree.
I found the same thing moving between the longbow and the recurve. i also found that by matching the correct arrows with each bow I was able to get similar performace from the different bows (sort of...) I still have a long way to go with the longbow. In terms of gap shooting, The 60lb recurve shoots point on the target at 42m where the 50lb longbow shoots point on at 28m. i use the same anchor point and grip on both bows.
I have been told that the longbow a "korean job" is reasonablly slow in comparrison to the recurve which puts out a 400 grain arrow at approx. 220 feet per second..!!

Hi Stephen

This is fairly academic but I was interested to se the point on of 28m on your longbow. I guess that is shooting 3 fingers under? Using a mediterranean release, index finger under cheek bone, and FF string my 48 lb longbow with VA arrows around 420 grains has a point on of around 40 m. My 40lb longbow using POC arrows around 360 grains has a PO of around 38m, and the 30lb LB with sitka spruce barreled shafts 320-330 grains has a PO around 34-36m. Using an instinctive method 3 fingers under or med release should all equal out. Using a gap method my med release is more at a disadvantage in the shorter distances (bigger gap than 3 under) but over 30m the med release may have an advantage.

Like I said, probably academic

Simon

[Stephen Georgiou]

Very good point. I have found that the long distance shots are completely obscured when shooting three fingers under. In this case "clout shooting for example" I aim the point of the arrow at the target and then raise the bow to some point in the sky and shoot. The routine I use is always the same and the speed that I raise the bow is always the same. So I think what is happening here is that I shoot when it feels right. Maybe muscle memory come into it or its just a fluke. Sometimes this works fine but if I start to think about it too much I stuff if right up. The interest in the trajectory and speed of the shot is purely to gain a better understanding of how all this stuff comes together.
I was talking to an old friend who has been shooting for close to 50 years and he made the comment that the Likes of howard hill and fred bear got to their levels of skill through a real passion for what they where doing and forming a close relationship with their equipment.
But I think in the end it comes down to he who shoots the most arrows wins.

[mcg]

Your article makes a lot of sense.

[Jeff]

me i look at what i want to hit and hopefuly it goes there so i aim small miss small. but everyone has there way of shooting this is just my way of doing it.

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[pdccr]

I can hardly even explain how i aim i nock, draw and release in one motion and it seems to just go there. Somtimes...

I always found it hard to explain how i aimed but you seem to have made it look easy, nice article.

[Stephen Georgiou]

This subject has always been an interesting one as taking the shot is a very personal thing.
At that instant in time the bow and arrow are a part of you and in shooting you are actually projecting your will to the point or thing you are aiming at.
In the last 12 months I have been making a conscious effort to shoot a least a thousand arrows a week in the attempt to make shooting the bow an automatic function and part of my every day activities. I have found that If I don't shoot the bow one day It's like there is something missing. Similar to not eating.
I know that this might seem a little extreme but I have found that with life having so many highs and lows the one thing I can rely on is my bow and arrows.
The other benefit of this type of regime is that the level of commitment is rubbing off in other parts of my life and that If nothing else is going right I can rely on my sanctuary of the bow.
Pause.................



Sorry I had to wipe a little tear from my cheek.

[kerrille]

[pdccr]

Hahaha thats so touching...

[Antonio]

Hi Stephen Georgiou and welcome to the site its a great place fantastic reading I have enjoyed here over the years .this is really good place. so stay as this is a really good local trad archery site .

and I fully agree with some of the members specially Coach wrote ...................
Yes it was , and you were the one that showed us that Now don't be afraid , and come back and talk Trad with us We are all entitled to a mistake or two God knows I have done it .

I second Coach on that I seen Coach do plenty of mistakes .

[pdccr]

Hahaha expect your next string to be a freak accident

[Stephen Georgiou]

Well here is another thing to think about when developing you instinctive shooting.

I was speaking to my daughter about things in general and made this statement:
"Your future should not be tied to your past. You can change anything about yourself you like you only need to make an effort."
Now being a good dad I thought I would apply this to my shooting.
I have always shot three fingers under and have put up with the problems with longer distance shots and thought why not try something new. So I changed to split finger a week ago and have improved my accuracy on circle targets by 20%!
What I found was that I get better clearance to my face and have stopped the occasional whack in the face when I get fatigued.
I find also that the long distance shooting is now brilliant and I find myself drawn to the 50, 60 meter targets more often.
So on the subject of instinctive shooting, if you find that you know in your heart you can shoot better don't be scared to change things. I suggest that you only change one thing at a time so you can measure the improvement and judge the results.

[stringnstik]

Yep , our kids are always teaching us things

[Chase N. Nocks]

As long as no "instrumental" method of determining distance is used ie rangefinder, binoculars, sextant, extra-long-telescoping-car-ariel, than ultimately any unaided shooting method is "instinctive". But not what we recognise as Instinctive Style..

I use the term loosely because even though I use a form of it myself it is difficult to qualify it with other archers as we all have personal perspectives and language skills/uses. We generally decide on a set of shared experiences with the method, an overlap of ideas that somehow gets the lable of "instinctive technique".

I'll also be honest and say that I think that the Instinctive method is a bit of a sacred cow particularly amongst trad shooters, and holds some mythical place as the style of supreme integrity and skill. It's the style of the Noble Savage which is how many of us like to see ourselves.

Critically I think the two key issues I associate with Instinctive style is

a non-deliberate judgement of distance before, during and even after the shot. Yes, after the shot .I say after the shot because sometimes my brain is absolutely convinced that the body did something wrong with the shot or some anomeli acted upon the arrow because rather than adjust the 2nd or 3rd shot it puts those next two staight in the same place.......wait for it, UNLESS I GAP . Next time around the range, the adjustment has been made... usually. GAPING is also difficult in this situation because I wasn't paying attention to the arrow tip anyway..my arrow is not invisible as some claim merely not taken into account deliberately.

and Fluid motion. This can be a variety of styles from blink of an eye snap shooting to deliverate anchor and hold, bow pointed down push/pull or bow up and locked and a steady drawback. This fluid is aided by a lack of deliberate aiming.

Now is Instinctive method the best? Is it even real or a definitive style? Are the two key issues mentioned above enough? Or Wrong!

And finally WHY is instinctive shooting such a protected species when it comes to ABA and 3DAAA shooting. If it is so damn good why are the other nondevice aided styles other than GAP baned. I don't think it is that good........for all people.

I think it should be put to the test. All styles that do not use range finding devices should be allowed to shoot standard barebow rounds. That means GAP, STRING WALKING, FACE WALKING etc. I see no difference to someone backing a conscience guess on the distance to the target than leaving it to the subconscience. In fact if you listen to many capable instinctive shooters, conscienciously second guessing is a distinct disadvantage so where exactly is the problem? I think these other styles are legitimate styles that should be accomodated and given equal chance.

The other benefit I think is that the Instinctive style may in fact not be for everyone. There are many archers and hunters out there that are squeezing themselves into some ideal that someone else sold them. Archers that would over a period of time reach a proficiency with say String Walking that they just would not achieve with the Instinctive style. We each handle similar tasks differently and bring different physical amd mental abilities to each task.

I also see a devaluation of these "other" shooters and their styles as being easier, cheating, NOT PURE. Good grief. How so? The great shots of all the disciplines pay considerable effort to their form. The styles that are not so fluid have their own disadvantages from not being fluid. They are "awake" to the many different steps of the shot and therefore have more opportunity to second guess a stage. They may very well experiment more with equipment and form.

Remember we are not talking about justifying different equipment, although that may not be a completely separate issue. But we are talking about different technique. It would be like banning skipping from a sprint race.

I am an Instinctive shooter for want of a better word. I am because I have shot many 10's of thousands of arrows over 30 odd years. But I have recently been going through my DVD collection of Masters of the Barebow, Modern Traditional, Byron Ferguson etc etc and most of those great shooters are to be respected as bloody hard working archers. Their skills reflect more their committment to archery than an easy out shooting style.

I am interested in what others think. Fluid Instinctive has allowed me to shoot extremely well over the years but I am interested in the possibility of improvements and different styles.

[hue]

thanks to you Chase for resurrecting this thread - it is always fascinating when i hear the term "instinctive" shooting!
i hear that as much as "back-tension" when i used to shoot compound - oft used - but both rarely understood or practiced!

just some observations from a clown who'se been in the game for some 18 years

1) if you shoot one eye closed - you don't shoot instinctive!
2) if you spend more than 1.5 seconds at anchor, you're aiming - you don't shoot instinctive!
3) if you are left-eye dominant and shoot right handed (and vica-versa) - you don't shoot instinctive!
4) if you shoot with the string in sight of the eye (or aligned) - you don't shoot instinctive!

i'll continue anon, but any comments?

Hue

and can someone please tell me what their definition of "instinctive" is please!

[perry]

Resurecting an old thread Troy! Fair comments as well

Instintlive shooting means something differant to many people and more than a few Sheeple get caught up in Dogma and do not aply critical thinking to the term. Those of us that disagree have got to get over it and remember we all love Achery and approach it in differant directions

Instictive shooting is often described as a subconscious act, it sort of clicks and WOW the arrows in the target. You brain still used a referance point that you learned after thousands of arrows or got bloody lucky with and filed away and applied this learned behavior at a subconscious level

An archer who chooses to shoot initialy using a referance point based system and is prepared to really work on his form and learn his equipment inside out will eventually develop a shot process that becomes ingrained and no conscious thought will go into it.

Of coarse there are rare individuals that posses an uncanny ability in any sport but the rest of us must work hard to eliminate the errors of the conscious mind and release the subconscious. No hocus pocus , no harping about the romance of instictive shooting - just realise the human brain is a most marvelous computer and if crappy data is put into it that's what comes out

Proper practice prevents poor performance -------- and eliminates excuses or crying foul when some one has done the work you have not.

regards Jacko

[hue]

beauty Jacko
well said!

[Robert]

3) if you are left-eye dominant and shoot right handed (and vica-versa) - you don't shoot instinctive!

Hue
Please explain how do you get this statement ?

[Rock Steady]

3) if you are left-eye dominant and shoot right handed (and vica-versa) - you don't shoot instinctive!

I have a mate who can pick up a r/h or l/h bow and has an uncanny ability to hit the dot at 10m with both eyes open. He is right eye dominate, so when he shoots the R/H bow he is instinctive but according to your statement when he shots the L/H bow 1 min later he is not instinctive? I confused.

The definition of instinctive is different for everyone, I am not sure why so many people get hung up splitting hairs over their definition being the only true and correct definition.

We are all archers and bowhunter's who probably all shoot at some level instinctively, the brain as someone pointed out is an amazing bit of gear and any of us who pretend to fully understand the human brain that well should probably be putting their knowledge to better use.

Anyway I got to get to work, talk more later.

Michael

[Brumbies Country]

And finally WHY is instinctive shooting such a protected species when it comes to ABA and 3DAAA shooting. If it is so damn good why are the other nondevice aided styles other than GAP baned. I don't think it is that good........for all people.

I think it should be put to the test. All styles that do not use range finding devices should be allowed to shoot standard barebow rounds. That means GAP, STRING WALKING, FACE WALKING etc. I see no difference to someone backing a conscience guess on the distance to the target than leaving it to the subconscience. In fact if you listen to many capable instinctive shooters, conscienciously second guessing is a distinct disadvantage so where exactly is the problem? I think these other styles are legitimate styles that should be accomodated and given equal chance.
I am interested in what others think. Fluid Instinctive has allowed me to shoot extremely well over the years but I am interested in the possibility of improvements and different styles.

I reckon you've raised some good points here Troy. I really admire truly instinctive shooting, particularly the ability of those that do it well to keep there brain from getting in the way of the truly instinctive shot. But we can't all stop our brains from interfering. Try as I may with longbows over the last three years I cannot develop that ability to consistently shoot a truly instinctive series of arrows. Sooner or later I come back to concious gap shooting. I stringwalked barebow recurve for a couple of years prior to that and it does offer a ready systematic method of aiming.

I think we are going to see some practical manifestations of this at next years Bowhunter World Championships in Wagga run under IFAA rules. Under ABA rules, and all Australian participants will be ABA members, with a barebow recurve you can't stringwalk or facewalk. Under the IFAA rules you can do both with barebow recurve. With longbow and Historic bow you can facewalk under IFAA rules; you can't under ABA rules. So IFAA, the International parent body, recognises that these are legitimate aiming methods. Under 3DAAA rules as I understand them, you can face walk and string walk with recurve barebow equivalent (RU I think). I agree, instinctive is not for everybody.

Simon