Thumb Ring for recurve

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curve
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Thumb Ring for recurve

#1 Post by curve » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:47 pm

Having suffered an injury to my right hand and specifically the tendon of my ring finger - as I shoot split finger I find it very painful to shoot my bow and 3 under is no better. So I was thinking of using a thumb ring. So does anyone have any experience with using a thumb ring for their recurve ? and can they provide any tips or hints. I would also be interested as to where they got the thumb ring as it seems the only suppliers are in China. Many thanks.

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#2 Post by Ian Turner » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:03 pm

Hi mate i thought you may be ok with 3 under; whats the prognosis and the chances of a recovery?
Cheers

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temudjin
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#3 Post by temudjin » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:41 am

Hey Curve,

sounds like a challenging time for you. I have only shot a little with a thumb ring so certainly no expert but here is the little I do know.

1. Thumb ring fit is critical. Ideally the "hole" you put your thumb through should be a slightly "flattened" circle as your thumb knuckle will likely be wider than it is tall. The ring goes on 90 degrees offset and once at the knuckle rotates back the 90 degrees to "lock" onto the knuckle. All this means you will need to try on different rings to find the one that fits you well. I bought three from 3 Rivers Archery over about 6 weeks before I found the right one for me. Here is the link to the 3 Rivers thumb rings http://www.3riversarchery.com/vermil-cl ... -ring.html

2. The "normal" set up with a thumb ring is to shoot the arrow from the opposite side of the bow compared to a three finger release. I think this has to do with the way the string oscillates as it curves around the releasing finger/s or thumb and the impact this has on arrow flight and direction. What this really means is that you will need a left hand bow if you are currently shooting right handed or vice versa if you are a lefty. You don't change your drawing hand, you just shoot the arrow from the other side of the bow. Not a problem if you shoot off the knuckle but I assume by the "recurve" that you are shooting off the shelf?

3. Even with a well fitting thumb ring and the arrow on the other side of the bow you will find the arrow does not go where your brain expects it to. Your brain "normalises" your arrow flight with your current set up and as soon as you change the set up (ie move to a thumb ring release) the arrow will appear to fly more to the left or right depending on which hand you draw with. Your brain will "normalise" this over time as well but expect it to take many, many shots. Sorry to make it sound "difficult" but they say it takes 12 months to learn to shoot with a thumb ring after shooting western style for any length of time.

4. If you are really keen there is a great book that will help you called "The Art of Shooting a Short Reflexed Bow with a Thumb Ring" by Adam Swoboda. You should be able to find it online.

5. There are also leather "glove" style thumb rings available that the Japanese Yumi archers use but remember the Yumi bows are around 30lbs draw weight so I'd be careful unless you are pulling similar poundage on your bow.

I hope this helps you, very best regards on your journey,

Temudjin

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perry
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#4 Post by perry » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:03 pm

Lots of good advice from Tom there curve. That Book The Art of Shooting the Short Reflexed Bow by Adam Swoboda is a very informative Book. It spells out from the start that switching to shooting with Thumb Ring is not to be played at - you must commit for the long haul. I have found it a tremendous aid, even incorporated tips from it into my Mediterranean Loose Archery

http://www.thumbringarchery.org/

I recently had another go at shooting an Asiatic Recurve with a Thumb Ring due to a Back and Shoulder Injury. I gave it a real good go and in the end decided the Technique did not help me with my Injury. It certainly does your head in as Tom eluded. In the end I was not prepared to forgo nearly 40 years of shooting Mediterranean Loose for little to no Pain reduction.

My Asiatic Recurves and Selfbows do not have a shelf and I shoot them off my Forefinger's Knuckle. I tried shooting them from both sides of the Bow with the Thumb Ring and in my small experience you are better shooting them from the opposite side, so if your a right hander get a left handed Bow or a Bow without a Shelf.

I will also say that back in the 80's there was a Fella in the Grange Bowhunter's that shot Barebow using a Mechanical Release due to a severe Hand Injury. No one was bothered by him shooting the Mechanical Release until he started Winning Competitions and then naturally the Sooks cried Foul. They failed to realise it was through his hard work and perseverance that he shot well, not the Mechanical Release. A familiar theme in Archery in my experience.

I think you will find it a very challenging experience switching to a Thumb Ring. BUGGER WHAT PEOPLE SAY it's about enabling you to keep shooting a Bow. If you find the Thumb Ring does your head in THEN try a Mechanical Release. You'll be able to keep shooting your current Bow and there is a wide range of Mechanical Releases on the Market to suit a wide variety of Hand Positions.

I made my own Thumb Ring, I found there was plenty of advice and how too's on the Net. I also found several places on EBay that sell them and also sell Leather Thumb Rings. PERFECT FIT IS VITAL, I found the Horn Thumb Ring and the Leather Thumb Rings equally challenging but had zero issue's with Pain to my Thumb caused by either type.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Best-selling ... 2a72e3a482

A lot of People have strife with shooting off their Hand with the Arrow Fletching cutting their Hand. This is a result of a badly tuned Bow, incorrectly spined Arrows, lousy Form or all 3. Switching to shooting with a Thumb Ring will mean you will need to reevaluate the Tune of your Bow and certainly different Arrows. Most certainly your Draw Length will change, likely it will be 2 - 4" longer.

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

curve
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#5 Post by curve » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:26 am

Tom/Perry - many thanks guys for the assistance - yes I think I will be in for a challenge - there is also a series of YouTube vids by a guy name Joel Turner Ironmindhunting.com - who shoots modern recurves off the shelf - both right and left - with a thumb ring with apparent success....so I'll give it a go - or learn to shoot a lefty.....cheers

Link to one of JTs vids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7kDRQJgMPU

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DavidM
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#6 Post by DavidM » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:32 pm

Hi Gentlemen

Just watched the youtube clip curve posted, and saw this one in the side bar. Tom/Perry, what are your thoughts on this theory?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNmNWRt8wQ0

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perry
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#7 Post by perry » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:42 pm

curve, that Fella explains himself really well, enjoyed the Clip. Top Info Mate.

David, from what I understood I did not see much in what he was saying. It seemed to contradict a lot of what I know. Then again I am not coming from his experience or shooting style ether..

Archery is an amazingly diverse Sport/ Passion/ Obsession what ever you call it. There is a great many correct ways to shoot a Bow. Many Cultures developed a great many ways to Shoot. Whats correct Form for one is not for another. I think there are a few constants though. One of those constants is the Paradox. No matter how perfect your Form, your Bows Tune, your Arrows Spine when the Bows energy is released into the Arrow it will Paradox. I got the impression he was talking about the Technique eliminating Paradox, maybe I misunderstood or maybe he was talking about reducing it which is certainly what happens with well matched Equipment and correct Form

Shooting with a Thumb Ring also induces less Paradox as the Arrow get a cleaner release when done correctly. Shot off the Thumb the Arrow also does not have to bend as far around a straight gripped Bow as when shooting off the Forefinger. In my small experience Spine is not as critical as compared to how we mostly shoot in the Western World.

As a right Handed Archer hold your straight gripped Bow loosely, just tight enough it does not fall, now pluck the string and tell me if the Bow Rotates a little ? Now pluck the string a little harder and tell me if the Bow Rotates a bit more ?

Speaking for myself, I knew I had absolutely nailed a Shot, perfect Form when my Selfbow rotated a bit. As a right handed Barebow Shooter shooting a straight gripped Selfbow off the Forefinger after the Arrow left the Bow the energy that did not go into the Arrow rotated the Bow anti clockwise as Back Tension pulled my Bow Arm slightly to the left. This did not happen when I fluffed the Shot which is all to often :]

Watch this Video, notice any deliberate torque applied to the Bow and yet the Bow Rotate's as I described above. If the Archer's Form is not correct the Bow will not rotate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh-ohspuCmE

Note the clip here, again it's the result of correct Form and well tuned equipment that rotates the Bow,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cwTQWKlhTM

Maybe I misunderstood him but in my view if you have correct Form with a straight gripped Bow it will rotate regardless of a Finger or a Thumb Ring Release. If you are initialising movement you are wasting energy in the Shot and practicing bad Form. Correct Form regardless of shooting style requires Skeletal Alignment. If you do not align your skeleton when you shoot you are relying on Muscles to support the Bow and Muscles tire quickly.

And lastly just because it's my favourite Archery Movie and many of the Techniques described in Adam Swoboda's Book are beautifully demonstrated in it a clip from War of the Arrows. You'll also note his Form, and how Back Tension pulls his Bow Arm away from the Arrow and some Bow Rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhzkf06cHZY

regards Perry
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#8 Post by greybeard » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:03 pm

Have you considered making your own thumb ring, if so the following may be useful.
Making an Archers Thumb Ring by Mike Richardson.pdf
(180.04 KiB) Downloaded 259 times
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DavidM
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#9 Post by DavidM » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:02 pm

Thanks Perry

I think i tend to agree; it should come about as part of the natural form and not as a deliberate torquing of the bow. But now you have made me want to look up a full copy of the "War of the Arrow" with english subtitles preferably :)

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#10 Post by GrahameA » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:18 pm

Afternoon All.
greybeard wrote:Have you considered making your own thumb ring, ...
I concur, making your own thumbring is the better solution. Materials other than horn will work.

It helps to have some idea of what you want to make. Have a look at the range of Thumbrings in this collection to get some idea of the different styles and shapes.

https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/onlin ... ring.shtml

If you decided to go to a thumbring and wish to shoot it in competition it would be prudent to check that the rules allow it.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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temudjin
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#11 Post by temudjin » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:12 pm

I found both videos interesting but the one on Khatra seems "not quite right" to me.

It seems as if the archer is twisting the bow while the arrow is still on the string - effectively moving the back of the arrow to the archer's right. It looked like he was trying to compensate for incorrect arrow spine. All very well but my big issue with this is consistency - only a few millimeters variation between shots would cause a wide range of effects on arrow flight and therefore final destination. Basically a millimeter or two sideways variation at the rear of the arrow is magnified by the arrow length to cause quite wide variations at the arrow point and to the final aim of the arrow.

It is my experience that when I shoot with my bow loosely gripped in my bow hand I shoot much better and more consistently. My understanding is that the loose grip allows the bow to react to arrow release in the most natural manner without the bow being twisted or torqued by the archer and then this effecting arrow flight. This is another reason why I am wary of Khatra.

Another thing to consider is the impact that changing to thumb release will have on your draw length and as a result perhaps arrow spine. And of course you'll need a new, repeatable and consistent anchor.

Like Perry says there are almost as many effective archery form combinations as there are archers. The best solution (at least with a trad bow) is the one that works best for you as an individual.

I would also be wary of being swayed by internet "experts". Get a thumb ring and start shooting. Use a notebook to track what you do try and how it works and I'm sure that pretty soon you'll begin to develop a form that works for you. Work the basics until you have a repeatable and consistent form and the arrows will start flying where you need them to.

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#12 Post by GrahameA » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:47 am

Morning Tom.
temudjin wrote:I found both videos interesting but the one on Khatra seems "not quite right" to me. ...
I agree. A Yumi, in the hands of a competent user, rotates. There is a video on the net (somwhere) which attempts to explain why it does so, not very succesfully. The cause of the rotation can be determined by resolving the forces.

I would suggest that a relaxed grip results in more consistent 'arrow release/flight' - which is hilghlited by typical target archery technique and tge use of a bow-sling.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#13 Post by Parrbd » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:31 am

Hello Curve
I have been shooting with a thumbring for a couple of years. I have found Vermil http://www.vermilarchery.com/ to be the best for me. I found the Lotus rings to be the easiest to use. I like to be able to feel the string against my thumb. I found those rings with a flange or groove, to hold the string, hard to control. I have used a thumbring on bows with a shelf (on the other side) and found it worked very well. As for Khatra, I have found some form of khatra essential for thumbring shooting off the other side of the bow. Using a loose grip always seems to cause arrow slap. Send me a pm if you want more help. Bruce

curve
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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#14 Post by curve » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:28 pm

Hi all - thankyou one and all for your assistance - I may have a crack at making my own ring - although that said, I have recently orders a Classic from Vermil - Bruce thanks for your offer - was it you that I have met at the Wiseman ferry shoots and more recently at the Hunter Valley Trad shoot in company with Peter?

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#15 Post by Ian Turner » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:22 pm

Hi mate yeah thats Bruce I gather you got the PM he sent you.
Cheers mate

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Re: Thumb Ring for recurve

#16 Post by Parrbd » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:37 am

Here are some good slow motion shots of an an accomplished thumbring shooter showing how the khatra works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyuDvp1HX_U

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