Are we fair dinkum???

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Are we fair dinkum????

I don't care about my form. I just shoot for the pure enjoyment.
5
13%
I do care about my form, but I don't know much about it.
7
18%
I don't have to worry about my form, as I can shoot well anyway.
2
5%
I care about my form and I practice by shooting heaps of arrows.
10
26%
I do a lot of blank bale work in preference to shooting more.
4
11%
I often use a lightweight bow and concentrate purely on form.
1
3%
I do a lot of rubber band work where on concentrate on form.
0
No votes
I have used the services of a good coach to correct my form.
1
3%
Luckily I have perfect form and I shoot like a machine.
3
8%
All this talk of form is for the anal retentive archers.
5
13%
 
Total votes: 38

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Mick Smith
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Are we fair dinkum???

#1 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:52 pm

I've been spending a bit of time on a US based trad archery forum site and it seems things are a lot different over there.

Threads regarding form a very common. They're very serious indeed about developing their shooting techniques to perfection. There's a lot of talk about ''blank bale work", shooting very lightweight bows to achieve perfect form, doing ''rubber band work'' and so on and so on. I have no doubt many of them are excellent shots.

All of this seems to run contrary to our attitude here in Australia. We rarely talk about the above ways and means of achieving perfect form. In fact, I know that many of us don't have anything that could be described as being good form at all.

This all got me thinking. So, are you serious about your form or not?
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#2 Post by Roadie » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:59 pm

NO
I don't give a Rats, I shoot because I enjoy it. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#3 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:57 pm

Roadie wrote:NO
I don't give a Rats, I shoot because I enjoy it. Cheers Roadie.

You're lucky that you shoot like a machine Roadie. :wink:

I probably should care more about my form than what I do. I would like to be a better shot. Before my shoulder stuffed up, I was doing heaps of practice and I knew I was shooting really well, for me. If there was some way of being able to practice without actually pulling my bow back, I'd do it. These days I can only shoot a dozen or so arrows before my shoulder starts to play up.

I chose the option, ''I do care about my form, but I don't know much about it.'' I have a basic understanding of what constitutes 'good form', but I don't really know the best ways of improving it. I find it all a little confusing.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#4 Post by bigbob » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:38 pm

Blank bale or any factor used for major change of technique requires diligent continuation of the change for at least 60 days to firmly imprint the change of technique onto the sub conscious. Not many of us are disciplined enough [myself included]to continue a routine that becomes , bluntly boring, long enough to effect such change successfully on our subconscious.this is part of the reason why people with target panic find it so very hard to find an acceptable procedure that may be of use.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#5 Post by little arrows » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:11 pm

Hi Mick,

I'm pretty fair dinkim' - as far as being an Aussie is concerned.
I don't practice my archery, all I know is if I don't do everything "right" it can all go wrong. I know and understand the physics of "what form is", and sometimes I wonder if archers get so bogged down with information, correct or otherwise, they forget to learn and understand their own bodies and matching equipment with shooting style. You can be the best well read person that ever picked up a bow, however if you have absolutely no idea of What your doing, then it will never come together IMO. Of course their will be the naysayers, doesn't matter what we put. So in short I didn't vote, as I am not pretentious enough to vote for option 3. :biggrin:

cheers
sue

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#6 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:59 pm

little arrows wrote:Hi Mick,

I'm pretty fair dinkim' - as far as being an Aussie is concerned.
I don't practice my archery, all I know is if I don't do everything "right" it can all go wrong. I know and understand the physics of "what form is", and sometimes I wonder if archers get so bogged down with information, correct or otherwise, they forget to learn and understand their own bodies and matching equipment with shooting style. You can be the best well read person that ever picked up a bow, however if you have absolutely no idea of What your doing, then it will never come together IMO. Of course their will be the naysayers, doesn't matter what we put. So in short I didn't vote, as I am not pretentious enough to vote for option 3. :biggrin:

cheers
sue
I don't think it would be pretentious for you to opt for number 3 Sue, if you wanted to. The bit about shooting well enough, was meant to be 'well enough for me' and that probably applies to many of us. There's no doubt in my mind, that some people are far more naturally gifted when it comes to archery, and as you've mentioned, intelligence and knowledge has nothing to do with it. People can either build up barriers in their mind as to why they can't shoot well, or they can just get on with it and shoot well. It's a confidence thing for many of us.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#7 Post by Mick Smith » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:13 pm

bigbob wrote:Blank bale or any factor used for major change of technique requires diligent continuation of the change for at least 60 days to firmly imprint the change of technique onto the sub conscious. Not many of us are disciplined enough [myself included]to continue a routine that becomes , bluntly boring, long enough to effect such change successfully on our subconscious.this is part of the reason why people with target panic find it so very hard to find an acceptable procedure that may be of use.
Having been afflicted with the dreaded target panic, I can visualise the comparison with it and the opposite, which of course is good form. The subconscious moves in mysterious ways, that's for sure.

When it comes down to it, I've actually done a lot of blank bale work, but it was to get rid of my target panic, not to improve my form, although I suppose you could say that getting rid of target panic is improving your form. Perhaps all of those hours concentrating on doing the perfect draw, followed by the perfect hold, followed by the perfect release with my eyes closed, probably did help with my form in general. I still have target panic by the way, but it's pretty under control these days. It seems to flare during high stress situations sometimes though, but it's only for a shot or two at most.

I think the responses so far indicate that we are indeed quite a bit different from at least some of our US cousins when it comes to our general attitude. We seem to be much more oriented towards shooting arrows purely for the fun of it, and not so much for the competitive side of it. For the most part, we seem to be far less 'clinical' when it comes to self improvement with our archery endeavours. Are we fair dinkum? Well, yes we probably are, but in an Australian context of a sort of, 'she'll be right mate' attitude.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#8 Post by bigbob » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:27 am

think your observations are close to the mark Mick.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#9 Post by The Ranger » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:28 am

I am always trying to better myself when it comes to form and accuracy. I was going to put 'Luckily I have perfect form and I shoot like a machine' but that would just be my sense of humour talking. I have used my iPhone 6 to video myself shooting at my practice target in slow motion. It picked up something I didn't realise I was doing and that is that I drop my point of aim by about 30mm just before arrow release. Also that straight after shooting I drop my bow arm down. I am therefore practicing to keep both my point of aim and bow arm up.

Like my motto says below, don't practise til you get it right, practise until you don't get it wrong.

I need to keep practicing.

Ranger
Don't practise until you get it right. Practise until you don't get it wrong. Ranger Bows.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#10 Post by alaninoz » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:55 pm

Over the last few months I've been doing a lot of blank-bale work to improve my form for a couple of reasons:

1) the better my form, the better my accuracy. May not work for you, but it does for me.

2) not far to walk to collect my arrows!
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#11 Post by perry » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:52 pm

I have shot very little since November 19th 2013 due to a now Chronic Injury. When I'm well enough to Shoot it's straight to Form work because all I have is 5 or 6 Arrows and they must be the best they can be because I have no idea when the next 5 or 6 Arrows can be.

Archery is a Martial Art, practicing correct Form through the same Shot Sequence in Archery is the same thing as the Kata in Karate. Exponents of Karate can only advance through their Belts by demonstrating continued improvement in the Kata. I see many Trad Archers practicing bad Form and they are really happy. It makes me happy to work towards perfecting my Form.

regards Jacko
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#12 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:50 am

Hey Perry, it appears our situations might be similar with regard to our physical limitations. In my current situation with my stuffed right shoulder, I only get to shoot around 12 arrows per day before it starts to 'play up', so I try to make each and every one of those 12 arrows special. Each one must be the best they can be. I actually think it's beneficial to shoot just 12 good arrows. To my mind, it's certainly more beneficial than shooting 100 or more mediocre arrows in a session.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#13 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:38 am

alaninoz wrote:Over the last few months I've been doing a lot of blank-bale work to improve my form for a couple of reasons:

1) the better my form, the better my accuracy. May not work for you, but it does for me.

2) not far to walk to collect my arrows!

I'm beginning to believe that this is probably the smart way to go if you're serious about improving your accuracy. It is fun to shoot lots of arrows at varying distances and it can certainly help archers improve, but for those of us who might have less than perfect form, it's just reinforcing bad habits. Blank bale work can be pretty boring though, but I suppose if it does become boring, you're simply not doing it right.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#14 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:47 am

The Ranger wrote:I am always trying to better myself when it comes to form and accuracy. I was going to put 'Luckily I have perfect form and I shoot like a machine' but that would just be my sense of humour talking. I have used my iPhone 6 to video myself shooting at my practice target in slow motion. It picked up something I didn't realise I was doing and that is that I drop my point of aim by about 30mm just before arrow release. Also that straight after shooting I drop my bow arm down. I am therefore practicing to keep both my point of aim and bow arm up.

Like my motto says below, don't practise til you get it right, practise until you don't get it wrong.

I need to keep practicing.

Ranger
One person opted for 'Luckily I have perfect form and I shoot like a machine'. I don't think he was serious either.

The old dropping the bow arm trick! Yes, I know all about that one. I still find myself doing it regularly. It's so simple and basic, yet it continues to happen.

Filming yourself is an obvious way of discovering faults. I haven't tried it myself, but I would if I had a camera that would do it.

I think many of us know what we're doing wrong, but we continue to struggle all the same.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#15 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:12 pm

Could I refer members back to an earlier post of mine where I wrote -
Mick,

Phi. What is the chief point in shooting, that every man laboureth to come to?

Tox. To hit the mark.

Toxophilus, Book II, Roger Ascham 1545.

In the end, how you shoot doesn't really matter so long as you hit the mark. Nobody has to conform to any particular method of shooting so long as their style is consistent and repeatable. That is where the accuracy comes from. I have seen people over the years who had 'bad' form in the technical sense, but were very very consistent with that form. They did the same thing every time and that resulted in accuracy. Whatever style or how good or bad it may be, once the arrow has left the string, gravity does everything else between string and target. If you have to gap shoot to be accurate, then gap shoot. If you have to face walk, then face walk. If you have to use a bit of each, then do that. It doesn't really matter so long as you can hit the mark.
My stand on 'form' is that there isn't one for all shooters, but there is a common list of basics included in the term which will assist any archer to better shooting, but later in a career, that archer will almost always adapt and modify those basics to 'improve' their form.

Strictly following any regime of training has its limits after which the law of diminishing returns applies as it can very easily with over-training past the point where the brain has slipped into neutral from fatigue and subsequent shooting deteriorates. I think we have all done that one at some time.

My first 10 years of shooting trad bows had me practising after work for easily 4 - 5 hours per evening even after dark and during days off, I would shoot up to 12 hours per day. I became almost mechanical in my ability to repeat a series of movements resulting in the discharge of the arrow - but - much of that sequence of movements was poor form in the classic meaning of the term which became ingrained and enormously difficult to re-train out of my system. However, I did shoot very well in those days and was a consistent A-grade ABA shooter using my longbows even with my compromised form.

There is the old addage which goes that 'practice makes perfect, but perfection only comes from perfect practice'. What I was doing in those days was making best use of an average form which I could endlessly repeat perfectly and so I shot well. But that was the hard way round the issue and could have been circumvented if there was anybody who could shoot longbows in those days from whom I could have sought advice. Unfortunately, there wasn't that I knew about, and longbows had pretty much gone out of archery fashion back then, so I was necessarily self-taught.

The principle thing with any form - good or bad - is repeatability. Only with repeatability and the conscious knowledge of exactly what you are doing with every shot can you modify that technique for improvement. If you do not know exactly what you are doing, you cannot change it.
Dennis La Varénne

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#16 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:10 pm

Yes Dennis, I totally agree. I've seen some shooters who have extremely poor form, yet they have still been able to shoot surprisingly well, in fact far better than what I would have thought possible. So, to me it's pretty obvious that good form isn't totally necessary to shoot well. I can only imagine how good these particular shooters would have been, if only they had good form. Instead of just being good shooters, they may well have been phenomenally good shooters.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#17 Post by BowmanBjorn » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:43 pm

Great question.

being a newbie to trad its been a complete change from shooting compound. some basics have come across but i've had to change a lot.

i can't say i've practised aloof but i shoot reasonably well. i know the failure in my form (well the obvious ones at least) and i'm kind of getting them Ironed out.

of the choices above none of them really fit me.... but somewhere between i don't car about my form i should well anyway and i care about my form and am working to fix it would be me.

still a long way to go but for a ted shooter of maybe 9 months i fairly happy.

if anything its hunting accuracy and form i need to work on not so much target or even 3D. it taking advantage of the shots on rabbits the split second they exist is my problem. i'm not able to be consistent enough a the drop of a hat.

whats been frustrating is that when i focus on "correct form" my shots are reasonably accurate but when i don't think abut the shot at all i tend to be more accurate.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#18 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:17 pm

Welcome Bjorn.
whats been frustrating is that when i focus on "correct form" my shots are reasonably accurate but when i don't think abut the shot at all i tend to be more accurate.
In a nutshell as we say, what you are writing about is classic 'instinctive' shooting. You are most accurate when you do not bring your mind back from the mark to what you are doing. You are concentrating entirely on the mark and allowing your subconscious brain to do all the work necessary in the milliseconds it takes to shoot from the draw.

The main difficulty with instinctive shooting is that on bad days/weeks/months, because it is not a conscious or deliberative method of shooting is that it is very difficult to correct a fault which may have developed over time because you do not know what it is that you are doing because again, you are not conscious of what you are doing at each stage of the shooting act. That is where Mick's idea of a camera or a friendly observer is of great assistance.

At least watching a short motion film of your style allows an instinctive shooter to see what is going wrong and analyse that fault. My own technique once I found a fault and analyse what was going wrong and why, was to practise the revised technique in my mind over and over and over without doing any shooting at all.

Nowadays, we know this method works because of the phenomenon which the neurological scientists call 'brain plasticity'. This well understood and tested technique allows the brain to build new neural pathways to overcome problems from other areas. What we are doing then is retraining our brains to think differently and that will follow into actual practice when we do take up the bow again. We have ingrained a corrected shooting style into our brain and that technique becomes an inbuilt memory which over-rides the previous memory of how we shot a bow.

If you find that you are resuming the old style again, that only means that you have not drilled the new technique into your brain well enough and so you must go back to doing the mental weight lifting for a longer time until it takes over completely and erases the old memory.

As Roger Ascham wrote in 1545, the chief point in shooting is to hit the mark.

All else is secondary to that purpose.

The single most important advantage of having a defined 'form' as I alluded to above is that if things go wrong for some reason, you can backtrack over your shooting style and analyse what is causing you to go wrong. Many of us shoot very well for some time and one day, we cannot hit anything.

Consequently we often go in for dramatic changes of style when the problem could be corrected with a little bit of tweaking of our present style which we have unconsciously become lax with.

In the end, if we are hitting the mark fairly consistently, whatever form we use must be good form, or we simply wouldn't hit the mark. If we are constantly and frequently changing our style because we are often inaccurate, it is like a dog chasing its tail - we just go round and round and round and never catch up to the basic problem.

In my early days when reading up on the Howard Hill shooting technique which he called a 'swing draw', he once wrote either in 'Hunting the Hard Way' or in Craig Ekin's book - "Howard Hill, the Man and the Legend' Hill said simply that "On loosing the arrow, do nothing". That simple statement conceals a wealth of information on technique and was the method by which I was able to overcome the common archer's problem of dropping the bow arm (unconsciously) to be able to see the flight of the arrow to the mark rather than to maintain exactly the same posture as at the loose until I saw or heard the arrow strike the mark. I trained myself consciously to hold that shooting position at the loose until I could, which was very difficult indeed and my shooting accuracy improved.

Sadly, for me, most of that hard early work has fallen away in more recent years from lack of practice.

But, that is remediable. The basics are still there imprinted in my brain and only need to be recalled into service again.
Dennis La Varénne

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#19 Post by greybeard » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:07 pm

Mick Smith wrote:.....Filming yourself is an obvious way of discovering faults. I haven't tried it myself, but I would if I had a camera that would do it.....
Mick, if your little Samsung camera is similar to mine you will be surprised at the quality of the video it produces.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#20 Post by Kendaric » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:43 pm

There are many ways to skin a cat, but some methods are better than others, and some don't leave you injured.

I've seen many archery injuries that have come out of bad form, even though it was consistant. Tendonitis of the bow shoulder is an example of this.

There are a couple of reasons why this can occurs (not including a previous non-archery related injury).
- Bow draw weight too high
- Bow mass weight too high
- Poor drawing technique, which is made worse by the above two.

The great thing about archery, is there are many different disiplines, depending what you want to get out of it. Some people like to race Formula One, and others like to drive a combi van.

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#21 Post by Kendaric » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:35 pm

Dennis La Varenne wrote: The single most important advantage of having a defined 'form' as I alluded to above is that if things go wrong for some reason, you can backtrack over your shooting style and analyse what is causing you to go wrong. Many of us shoot very well for some time and one day, we cannot hit anything.

Consequently we often go in for dramatic changes of style when the problem could be corrected with a little bit of tweaking of our present style which we have unconsciously become lax with.
True

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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#22 Post by bigbob » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:14 pm

One thing to remember is that flinging arrows simply for the point of firing them serves little or no purpose. It is better to use each arrow with purpose, ie aiming at a particular spot, attempting to group several in a tight spot etc are all with purpose and will allow positive re inforcing .Firing arrows almost at random will ultimately ingrain bad form as little is learned from the exercise.Once bad form is imprinted then as I mentioned earlier at least 60 days of constant repetition to overcome the flaw and then only if the repetition exercise is done correctly each time, otherwise the time just gets extended.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#23 Post by AndyD » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:08 pm

Consitent form to me is key. I love archery but I love bowhunting more.
To me it all comes down to being able to put that one arrow, when I need it, where I need it.

I spend most Sundays down at the range (if not out bush) - as soon as I get tired, mentally or physically, I can it for the day. "Flinging arrows" as I call it - (once your concentration is broken or shoulder not getting back to full draw) is a waste of time for me.
I'm lucky in the sense that I have a very visible tell once I'm shooting poorly - arrows go left and low. Always becuase I'm putting my face to the string rather than string to face.
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#24 Post by BowmanBjorn » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:46 pm

Thanks Dennis,

That logical. So essentially I should attempt to clarify my form step bY step but not use these steps unless I start having accuracy issues. Then look back on the form to see what has changed?

I still have a long way to go before I'm shooting the way I want.

Regards

Bjorn
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#25 Post by perry » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:42 am

The Shot Sequence is Key to good Shooting. Check out this Link as it goes into some detail - http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/e ... nt-outcome

and a link to a discussion on another Archery Forum with some excellent answers about working towards a seamless Shot http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index ... c=272&st=0

regards Jacko
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#26 Post by Kendaric » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:20 pm

A couple of good links there Perry.

Here is another I found. Whilst it pertains to olympic target archery, the techniques of draw can be adapted to field shooting, to alleviate shoulder tendonitis. This is why in-part it was developed as it is a major problem in all forms of archery.

https://archeryaustralia.app.box.com/s/ ... wa77dbsz2l

One thing I have found is that having the bow straight up and down, without proper draw technique, is more likely to cause shoulder tendonitis, than when you draw and shoot the bow with some cant. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that this probably because of how the shoulder is aligned with regards the chest down technique which is also mentioned in the link. Field shooters who cant, naturally tend to use this, without even thinking about it.

Just food for thought when it comes to tweaking ones form.

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CraigH
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#27 Post by CraigH » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:41 am

alaninoz wrote:Over the last few months I've been doing a lot of blank-bale work to improve my form for a couple of reasons:

1) the better my form, the better my accuracy. May not work for you, but it does for me.

2) not far to walk to collect my arrows!
x2


Too many people worry about aiming, but it is no good concentrating on aiming or the target if you drop your bowhand or your release is all over the shop.

A light bow for formwork helps.

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rodlonq
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Re: Are we fair dinkum???

#28 Post by rodlonq » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:48 am

I only resort to thinking about form on occasions when I want to consciously train it. The rest of the time I try to rely on my form being as good as it will be, just like my aiming method (i.e. I don't use a method, I just point the arrow where I think it needs to go). Unfortunately all of this calls for extensive practice and I am just not getting the time in, mostly because I am making wood dust in my spare time.

Cheers.... Rod

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