Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

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Mick Smith
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Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#1 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Since I've been back into archery recently, I seem to have developed a new weird way of shooting.

My practice range in the backyard is around 25 meters long, but I practice a lot at 20 meters, mainly because it just feels good and I get good results at this distance too, generally. I haven't done a lot of practice at other venues, unlike a few years back when I was an active member of a club. As a result of this constant practice at 20 meters, my brain seems to have keyed in 20 meters as THE shooting distance.

I always just look at the spot on the target that I wish to hit. I find that if I look at the arrow or the distance between the arrow point and the target, my shot will be a poor one. Whereas, if I just look at the 'spot' my grouping becomes much better.

In the lead up to the Lilydale shoot recently, I thought I should practice out to 35 meters or so, as I just wasn't getting the practice I needed. I took my portable butt out into the paddocks and paced out 30 meters. It didn't seem to matter what I did at this longer range, my arrows were all grouping quite low, about 18 inches low in fact. I tried and tried to lift my group up so they were on target, but for some reason I just couldn't. My brain seemed to be wired for 20 meters and 20 meters only.

To get around this strange state of affairs, I decided to concentrate on a different spot, not the actual target, but an imaginary spot that was 18 inches above the target and what do you know? It worked, I started hitting the centre of the target quite often. I found that I can change this imaginary spot to be wherever I want it to be, so I just make it higher on longer shots and a bit lower on close shots. It seems to work well, to a degree. It does mean though, I have to estimate the range, which is something a true instinctive shooter doesn't have to do.

Should I continue on with this method, which seems to give me reasonable results, particularly at longer ranges, or should I try to go back to a purely instinctive style of shooting? Would you class my above method as instinctive or gap shooting? Personally, I think it's a bit of both, but predominantly it's gap shooting, I reckon. Remember, I never consciously look at the arrow or the gap.
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#2 Post by Bill » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:23 pm

:smile: In reading as to what your saying, is that if four targets were set out at 20, 30, 40, and 50 meters.
Is that you sight your 20 meter target and all is good with the grouping and to hit the thirty metre you sight on the forty meter target and for the forty meter target you sight in the fifty meter target and so on. If this is the case I believe it to be a form of gap sighting. The distance between the targets is further away and smaller in the sight window closing down where by you will finally be sighting on the tip of the arrow.
If this is not the case then please forgive me, its just a thought. :smile:
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#3 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:34 pm

From what you have said Mick you are no longer shooting Instinctively. You are using a form of Split Vision or Gap but not Instinctive IMO

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#4 Post by Guy Layton » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:01 pm

Hi Mick,

I find myself shooting at distance targets 35m plus like you do... I imagine a spot above the intended spot I want to hit... :wink:

Not trying to get into any arguments here... But am I wrong in saying instinctive shooting is subconsciously a combination of a few forms of current aiming methods...?

Cheers Guy
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#5 Post by little arrows » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:55 pm

and that's when the fight started.........

distance to me is meaningless. I would have to say Mick, the method you have described above, regarding shooting past 20 meters is not instinctive in my opinion.
If you are looking above where you want to shoot, then that is a form of gap system surely.
Sometimes I think that a lot of people bring themselves unstuck, they over analyse and then put way too much pressure on themselves.

just some thoughts.

cheers
sue

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#6 Post by GrahameA » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:30 am

Morning.

Guy.

Substitute 'Intuitive' for 'Instinctive' and it will make sense.

Mick.

As with Photography the '10,000 Hour Rule' comes into play. (For this moment accept that it is more less true/correct even if the numbers may vary a bit.) You need to put in more 'quality' hours.
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#7 Post by Jim » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:01 am

Mick, my little .02 is that you are still shooting instinctively but you've done the thing that should never be done and made a conscious correction. If you believe guys like Asbell, you're handicapping yourself in the long run by doing that.

I had an almost identical scenario with my instinctive shooting and wanted to figure out why it was so. I plotted the trajectory of my arrows (jimmy blackmon has an easy to follow instructional video on youtube for this). What I found was that my arrows had pretty much plateaued between 15-30 metres, the difference in trajectory being a matter of a few inches within that range. By 35 metres however they had begun to plummet at an ever increasing rate.

Between 35 and 45 metres the arrow drops about 2 feet, or 24 inches. This means that for every metre of travel the arrow is dropping about 2 inches. So for my brain to be accurate shooting instinctively at that range, it has to do a subconscious judge of distance, accurate to about a metre, then accurately aim off to within a few inches. That's a big ask for a brain like mine. Most people's judge of distance will be within about 5-10m out to 100m, but to get within 1m consistently would be very impressive.

So it may be possible to shoot well instinctively beyond the plateau of your arrow's flight but I suspect it would take a LOT of practice (10,000 hrs perhaps) and probably some natural gifts at judging distances as well. My solution is to just gap shoot past about 30m. You have obviously found your own solution too :wink:
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#8 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:40 am

Any shooting where you consciously judge the distance and subsequent aiming points is not instinctive shooting!

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#9 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:09 am

While I was shooting at the Lilydale shoot recently, I noticed again that many, if not most of the instinctive shooters shot low on the long 35 meter plus shots. Except for the very small minority, I believe that's it's just too hard for instinctive shooters to shoot well at long distances, unless they train consistently at these sort of distances. I found it mildly amusing to watch some of the instinctive shooters shoot all the 3 arrows allowable at certain long distance targets, only for each and every shot to land too low.

All I did, with this new method, was to pre-empt this predictable low shooting by artificially allowing for it and yes, it's certainly a form of gap shooting. It produces results, so I will probably keep on using it. For me, this mix of instinctive and gap shooting works.

Apart from that, at distances up to 25 meters, I would still call my style of shooting 'instinctive'. I just look at the 'spot' and shoot, just like any other 'instinctive' shooter.

Anyway, I've found it interesting to discuss this 'different' approach. I'm glad to find out that I'm not the only one who does it. Thanks everyone for responding.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#10 Post by Bill » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:36 pm

Mick said :smile:
All I did, with this new method, was to pre-empt this predictable low shooting by artificially allowing for it and yes, it's certainly a form of gap shooting. It produces results, so I will probably keep on using it. For me, this mix of instinctive and gap shooting works.
:smile:

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#11 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:27 pm

Mick,

I went through exactly the same thing years ago. Because I practised at a set distance, I became hard wired to that distance and I shot instinctively too. That is a real problem using the instinctive method which few people realise can happen.

For a long while I did compensate for longer distances by concentrating on an imaginary spot above the target as you do. And yes, it does indeed work.

I got around it eventually by shooting at varying distances as well as walking a zig-zag pattern across the front of a target spot as I moved both closer and further away from it. No shot was taken from the same position or angle that way and it retuned my unconscious brain to do what was necessary to hit the target.

I have a significant problem with my left eye which causes double vision when I draw up to shoot. My dominant right eye looks at the spot, buy my left eye superimposes an image of the ground about 3 or 4 metres to my right front over that of the target when I have both eyes open, so I have to shut my left eye to obviate this. That then upsets my ability to unconsciously judge distance using instinctive shooting which I learned to overcome to some degree by looking squarely at the mark before drawing my bow followed by closing my left eye and drawing up on a visual 'memory' of the mark.

It has taken me a long time until now to figure out what I was doing and how I did it, even though in my better days back when, I was an A-grade scored in ABA comps for a while. I must have worked something out.

Just recently, in the past few weeks as it turns out, I have been trying out that older style of shooting employed by the mediaeval English archers of 'drawing to the ear'. Using a very weak bow, I have begun practising this style and it is working, and this is why I think.

Firstly, I look at the mark in a normal open stance and draw up on the mark whilst staring at it. I don't know where the arrow is exactly, but I can 'feel' where it is from the relationship of my drawing hand and my bow hand.

Secondly, the fact of drawing to the ear has my face more square on to the mark than with a corner of the mouth anchor which seems to be just enough to prevent the double image phenomenon I usually get - not entirely - but it is so faint that I am far less conscious of it to the point where it often does not even register.

Thirdly, after I became more accustomed to the strange anchor, I started shooting far more accurately than I have done for a long time now. The difference was quite dramatic rather than an incremental improvement which I found startling. There are still muffed shots of course, but the average groups size and its position is much much improved indeed.

Also, about terminology, even though the traditional term to describe this form or shooting is 'instinctive' and has been for very many decades that we know of, the word which Grahame uses above with which I agree - intuitive - is descriptively much more accurate to what actually happens.

Long and dedicated practice at varying angles and distances become ingrained into the unconscious mind. One then gains the ability to shoot without any form of conscious thought as to what needs to be done in order to get an arrow to strike a given mark. It just happens.

It is not instinctive in the same meaning used in the biological sciences which has a very limited and precise meaning to science. But it is a term which we archers devised a long time ago for our own use to describe a particular form of shooting which has obvious features of apparent instinctiveness about it.
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#12 Post by Bill » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:49 pm

:biggrin: Many, many years ago, (my story) :surprised: when I was a lot younger, 8) I would wonder and walk the paddocks shooting arrows at any object that wouldn't break an arrow. This shooting of different objects at different distances ( never measured any) improved my ability to lift the bow and in my (third) vision I could see the arrow tip and always knew that it was on target. This itself was a form of gap shooting but with my practice and instinct (the training of the brain and muscle memory) I also was a top shooter in those days (I have trophies and medals that tell me so) So when I rethink about it I shoot with a bit of both. 8)

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#13 Post by Guy Layton » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:57 pm

GrahameA wrote:Morning.

Guy.

Substitute 'Intuitive' for 'Instinctive' and it will make sense.

Mick.

As with Photography the '10,000 Hour Rule' comes into play. (For this moment accept that it is more less true/correct even if the numbers may vary a bit.) You need to put in more 'quality' hours.
Hi Grahame,

Your exactly right mate...!

I decided to look up the definition of both ' Instinctive ' and ' Intuitive' and I must say that ' Intuitive Shooting ' describes my shooting so much better...!

I believe that you would find most archers that think they are ' Instinctive Shooters ' are actually ' Intuitive Shooters '

Regards Guy
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#14 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:43 am

Guy,

I agree with you in that respect, but as I pointed out in my post above, we archers adopted the term 'instinctive' a very long time ago. In my old archery books, it is used to mean exactly the same kind of shooting that we use the term for today. Instinctive shooting, from an archery perspective is a learned form of shooting which removes it from the modern definition of instinctive, particularly its quite narrow scientific meaning.

You have to be careful when you apply a modern definition to something for which a term was adopted long ago, because that old term will most certainly have had a different meaning in those days. For such things, I like to consult very old dictionaries as well as modern dictionaries, because you can then see the changes in meaning of words over time.

In the early 1900s when the term seems to have come into general use, the word instinctive had a much broader meaning than it does today and it was an everyday word in common use. Science co-opted the word from common use to apply to behavioural biology, not the other way round.

Within the biological sciences, it has a specific and very limited meaning as you would expect. But in common use, in the days of its use in archery, its meaning was much more inclusive and commonly used to refer to any kind of behaviour which had the appearance of being performed without conscious deliberation rather than just a genetically programmed unalterable response to stimulus.
Dennis La Varénne

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#15 Post by whitey222 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:11 pm

I also gap shoot beyond 25 metres. I don't own acreage, so the only time I get to shoot longer distances is when I'm at the local field archery club. I was never going to be able to get up my '10,000hrs' at longer distances, so I went down the gap path and never looked back.

I should mention that hunting is my #1 archery interest, so accuracy at shorter distances is my goal. I'm quite happy to gap longer ranges at the field range where it's all about having fun (for me anyway).

On a side note, I made an interesting observation about my 'instinctive' shooting some time ago. I decided to do some shooting in my backyard on a moonless night. The target was inside my garage and brightly illuminated by fluorescent lights. I stood outside in the dark firing arrows from a distance of 20 yards through the open garage roller door. I normally get tight groups at this distance during daylight hours but on this occasion it wasn't happening for me. I initially wrote it off as just one of those 'off' days but later got to thinking about it. My eyes had adjusted to the brightly lit target. I was even having trouble nocking my arrows in the dark. When I was at full draw, the arrow tip was not visible to me in my peripheral vision as it normally was in daylight. I have since repeated the night exercise and again, shot poorly. The difference isn't substantial, but those groups are definitely tighter during my daylight practice sessions.

Maybe I was simply tired, hungry or just plain not concentrating those nights, but the results were consistent. I had always considered myself to be an instinctive shooters, but I now believe that even though I consciously look at nothing but the target, that arrow point in my peripheral vision is being factored into the equation.

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that out there. Maybe others who believe they are instinctive shooters in the purest sense (they ONLY see the target), might like to give the night shooting a go and see how an invisible arrow tip affects their accuracy. Then again, maybe it's just me. :)
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#16 Post by littlejohn59 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:24 pm

Hey Mick
Instinctive shooting or gap shooting. Should i continue on with my new method?

You can continue using your new found method. However to move from 20 to 30 m is too great a distance in one hit.

At 20 meters you say you are accurate. You moved to 30 meters and accuracy diminished.

My suggestion would be move back to 20 m. Then take 1 step back and shoot at the target till you are accurate. When you are, then take another step back and shoot till you are accurate at that distance. When you are accurate at that distance take another step backwards and shoot till you are accurate.

Continue this process.

It is known as walk back shooting. Have fun!

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#17 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:05 pm

Alas littlejohn, I'm a fairly inconsistent performer at any distance, but yes, 20 meters would be my favourite distance. This whole 20 meter business came about because that's the length of my backyard range. I practiced for extended periods at this range and it somehow became permanently imprinted in my brain.

I'd like to be able to walk back and practice extensively, but I just don't have the distance to do so. I can get a maximum of 25 yards in the back yard if I shoot through the washing hanging on the line. :lol:

I reckon you're right though. In order to be good at longer distances, you must practice and practice at all distances, including the longer ones. This is something I've never really done for a couple of reasons. There's the lack of space thing in the backyard, but there is also the fact that I have a hunting background in which I would very rarely would even consider taking a shot beyond 20 meters.

The sad truth of the matter is that I will never be a great shot, particularly at longer ranges, but that doesn't worry me unduly. I still enjoy myself, even though I have to gap shoot at longer distances. I'm happy with that.
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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#18 Post by DavidM » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:07 pm

Hi Mick

You can always turn to the "ancient and deadly" art of string walking 8) Im even told it will work with FMJ's :wink:

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#19 Post by littlejohn59 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:46 pm

really professor :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#20 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:55 pm

Mick,

Phi. What is the chief point in shooting, that every man laboureth to come to?

Tox. To hit the mark.

Toxophilus, Book II, Roger Ascham 1545.

In the end, how you shoot doesn't really matter so long as you hit the mark. Nobody has to conform to any particular method of shooting so long as their style is consistent and repeatable. That is where the accuracy comes from. I have seen people over the years who had 'bad' form in the technical sense, but were very very consistent with that form. They did the same thing every time and that resulted in accuracy. Whatever style or how good or bad it may be, once the arrow has left the string, gravity does everything else between string and target. If you have to gap shoot to be accurate, then gap shoot. If you have to face walk, then face walk. If you have to use a bit of each, then do that. It doesn't really matter so long as you can hit the mark.

Whitey above makes a quite valid point about his observations about night shooting and the ability of the peripheral vision to be able to place the alignment of the arrow with the mark, but that does NOT disqualify it from the archery definition of instinctive shooting. As Jeff pointed out above, instinctive shooting in archery is shooting WITHOUT ANY CONSCIOUS (or deliberate) AIMING METHOD - my italics. Again, the archery use of the term is being confounded with its use in the biological sciences and the two are different usages of the same word. The archery term had its origins in common usage. Science took the term from common usage and gave it a very specific and narrow meaning with those disciplines as science requires.

Could I also mention the small matter of 'firing' a bow? Bows were never fired; they were shot. The word 'shoot' comes from the Anglo-Saxon 'scutan pronounced 'SHOE-tun' meaning 'to shoot'. That word is ancient and was only ever used in relation to discharging an arrow from a bow. Firing on the other hand only came into use when guns or 'gonnes' were developed in the 14th Century and required the application of a lighted match or 'fire' to a fuse in order to discharge the gonne. Hence the command to 'fire' meant specifically to discharge a firearm only. It has no place in archery.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#21 Post by Preston » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:28 am

Hello Dennis,
I always loved playing with bows and arrows that I made myself out of bamboo when I was a child and till my teenage years.... now I have suddenly got interested again, and I aim to build my own bow and practice shooting.... I must say that since I joined this forum and came across your replies that I like your insight and cool answers and appreciate your input thanks....
Best regards,
Preston.

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Re: Is this still instinctive or is it gap shooting?

#22 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:44 pm

Hello Preston and welcome. That is very kind of you and I do not doubt you find all the information on Ozbow with a bit of ferreting around.

There are very few sites internationally which are as comprehensive in their coverage of the early forms of archery before and into the early days of fibreglass and as dedicated to the preservation of those older forms of archery. Many have small amounts of similar information sprinkled through modern trad sites but nothing like the dedicated interest in those forms.

Ozbow may not be as expansive as most others, but it is very dense in its information about those earlier archery forms. It would be a grave loss if it had to be closed down.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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