Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

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Kendaric
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Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#1 Post by Kendaric » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:47 pm

When I shoot barebow, I shoot instinctively, mostly because it feels nice, I like it (yes I know all the arguments about the word instinctive etc etc - this is not what this post is about).

Taking a close look at the 'top' shooters at a trad event, I did notice that most of them were either short drawing to near their nose with a high anchor so that they could look at the arrow point as a reference with very little 'gap', or had markings (in one case a picture drawing) either on the inside their riser window or camo markings or laminations that they could use as an aiming reference for different distances.

I tried the short draw method, but you have to either have a super dead release or fling your release hand to the side so you don't hit yourself in the face, and my bow has no markings on it that I can use as an aiming method (like using sights).

AA banned arrow nocks close to the eye due to the potential of risk too the eye in-case of an unexpected accident (the nock separating upon release).

And whilst this may all sound like sour grapes, (maybe it is?) my question is, how do I compete against field archers that use this technique? I might as well go back to sights.

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Mick Smith
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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#2 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:37 pm

Good question.

There's are certainly many good archers who have strange and unusual techniques. I say they're good, as they're very good at achieving high scores at events. Perhaps they're not so good when it comes down to 'correct' form and grace. Because archery is so often a self taught process, many shooters develop weird individualized techniques and they stick with them because they work for them.

To my mind, there are basically two general techniques, instinctive shooting and gap shooting and within those two disciplines you will find some people prefer to shoot with split fingers or 3 under. I believe that all of these possibilities offer different advantages under different circumstances. I don't believe than any one of these techniques offers any huge advantage over the others. Admittedly, some techniques take a lot longer to become proficient in than others. I'm not going to get involved with techniques such as string walking here.

What sort of trad events are you referring to. In events where the distance to the target is known, gap shooting can offer some huge advantages, but most trad events, such as 3D will have a mix of unknown distances which can completely throw out many gap shooters, more so than most instinctive shooters.

Personally, I think a very good instinctive shooter will be every bit as competitive as any other sort of shooter. I also believe that a mediocre instinctive shooter will generally be outclassed by a mediocre gap shooter. I also believe that an average 3 fingers under shooter will outperform an average split finger shooter at shorter ranges, ie, out to 20 meters or so. Many 3D courses will have the bulk of their targets set out at around 20 metres, giving 3 fingers under shooters a big advantage, IMO.

I have seen some very good short draw shooters too. I haven't really been able to understand the advantages in purposefully drawing well short of an anchor point, but obviously this technique can certainly work well for some people. I wouldn't actually encourage anyone to adopt this method of shooting, as it has many pitfalls, some of which you have outlined. Other pitfalls often include a poor trajectory at longer ranges, as this method is poor at transferring energy from the bow into the flight of the arrow, IMO.

At the end of all of my waffling you still don't have your answer. All you have is my perspective on the matter which probably isn't much help. I will be interested to see what others have to say on this subject.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#3 Post by Kendaric » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:55 pm

Mick Smith wrote:comes down to 'correct' form and grace.
I will be interested to see what others have to say on this subject.
The response will be interesting, which is why I like this forum and one of the many reasons I like the Trad event - so many like minded people.

I like your reference to form and grace. There is a 'peace' that can be found with graceful shooting.

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Mick Smith
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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#4 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:42 pm

I don't think it helps to worry too much about what other competitors are doing. Your real goal should be to simply shoot as well as 'YOU' can.

If you think other methods or techniques might offer some advantages then, by all means, give them a go for yourself. You will eventually settle for the technique that works the best for you.

Overall, I think that confidence in your ability to hit the target consistently is probably the best asset you can have. Sometimes that confidence can and will take a beating due to the odd less than perfect shot, but it's important to try to rise above that. It's very easy to over think the situation. It should be about flinging arrows for fun, IMO.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#5 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:57 pm

Mick Smith wrote:Overall, I think that confidence in your ability to hit the target consistently is probably the best asset you can have. Sometimes that confidence can and will take a beating due to the odd less than perfect shot, but it's important to try to rise above that. It's very easy to over think the situation. It should be about flinging arrows for fun, IMO.
I reckon you nailed it Mick!

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#6 Post by scuzz » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:29 pm

I've always felt the most competitive shooters at trad shoots were instinctive shooters with consistant form. Whether they have dynamic/static anchors or any other variation of form. I have seen some shooters short draw instinctively at very close targets with decent accuracy. It can be eliminated with practice, but maybe it doesn't need to be??

I remember shooting a 'spotlight event' in Victoria one year, where a spotlight would come on for a couple of seconds and then turn off. I have always shot trad gear instinctively and rather than trying to rush my draw, i picked my spot and began my draw sequence, shooting into darkness from memory once the light turned off. I shot accurately. I'm not sure because i have never consciously gap shot, but i could imagine it being hard to do in the dark.


Some trad shoots have a type of 'field' shooting event and I believe a good gap shooter will be able to take advantage of such events.

Cheers,
Scuzz

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#7 Post by wishsong » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:33 pm

A brief perusal of any of the IBO events overseas , or 3d shoots in Europe will show those with a dedicated aiming system wins the day . I think every podium finisher in the USA is a mad keen hunter .

And on the whole they shoot 3 Under .

When you get to Field and the distances increase it's a different story .

I struggle with 3 under , and any conscious aiming method ... Would love to be able to master it but fear I'll remain "instinctive" .....
And that's no bad thing ....

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#8 Post by whitey222 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:37 pm

wishsong wrote:I struggle with 3 under , and any conscious aiming method ... Would love to be able to master it but fear I'll remain "instinctive" .....
And that's no bad thing ....
I don't consider 3 under to be a form of conscious aiming. Plenty of folk shoot instinctively 3 under. I'm one of them.
That said, I found out long ago that my accuracy was limited to 25 metres shooting instinctively. Beyond that distance, I am more accurate if I use the gap method of aiming. So, I employ a mix of the two techniques... I look at nothing but the target at close distances, but at longer distances I consciously measure the distance between the arrow point and target. This is what works for me.

Hunting is my main pursuit, so the shorter distances shot instinctively is what I try to excel at. I only 'gap' when I'm at an ABA club shooting the longer shots for fun.
Graham
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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#9 Post by wishsong » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:28 am

Didn't mean to infer that either are mutually inclusive. When shooting 3 under I try to Gap but struggle and do much better with unconscious aiming .

But 3under does seem to lend itself to Gap shooting at close ranges .

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#10 Post by GrahameA » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:52 am

Morning All.
Kendaric wrote:When I shoot barebow, ....
My $0:02

There are a few parts to the whole thing. Two of the parts are 'form/technique' and an 'aiming method'. Whatever method you choose you are bound by the limitations imposed by the various "Rules". This is from the FITA Coaching Notes. I have highlighted the important bit in bold.
3.4 Aiming methods

There are three methods of aiming in barebow shooting.
A combination of these methods can be adapted to suit
the individual archer.
Gap shooting
Face walking
String walking
Combinations:
Face and string walking
String walking with gap shooting

All the above mentioned methods use the tip (point) of the arrow for height sighting and the string/bow window edge for windage sighting. Below are two pictures showing the most common sighting pictures. Development of a method of sighting for a barebow archer is a long process.
Grahame.
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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#11 Post by Kendaric » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:06 am

GrahameA wrote:you are bound by the limitations imposed by the various "Rules". [/b][/i]
[/quote]

Very true, but there are ways around the rules, and it would be impossible now to rule one way or the other nowadays, unless blatantly obvious.

From the ABA rulebook "The arrows, belly, bow grip, bow window, string and arrow shelf shall
be free of any marks or blemishes that may be used as sighting aids.
Manufacturers markings are exempt."

So one could manufacture into the bow - sight references. This could possibly include camo markings as well.'

Once with barebow compound, if you had camo markings on the riser, the officials would put tape over it, but I don't see that happen anymore - because other references could be used, like the cable guard mount, or the bow quiver.

Maybe I could put camo tape on my bow, or use horizontal laminations for my next custom bow.

I'm just saying.

At what point do you draw the line at 'barebow'.

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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#12 Post by Jim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:51 am

Kendaric wrote:my question is, how do I compete against field archers that use this technique?
So, I see three possible solutions for you.

The first is practice a lot at long ranges with instinctive shooting.

The second is to keep doing what you're doing and accept you won't be competitive past about 30m (That's about where I am with instinctive).

The third is to learn how to gap shoot. You don't need markings on your bow, basically replicating a pin sight. What you do need to do is plot the trajectory of your arrows. From there you will know at a given distance how far below or above your intended point of impact you need to aim the head of your arrow at full draw. It's a very effective method of accurate shooting at known distances, or unknown distances if you practice and become proficient at judging distances. If you're interested in pursuing this search on youtube for a fella named Jimmy Blackmon, he has a bunch of good instructional videos.

Personally I like to zen out and enjoy the process of instinctive shooting :wink:
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Kendaric
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Re: Being Competitive with instinctive shooting method?

#13 Post by Kendaric » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:35 pm

Jim wrote:
Kendaric wrote: Personally I like to zen out and enjoy the process of instinctive shooting :wink:
Absolutely!

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