cock feather cock ups?

[slinkymalinky]

Here's a curly question for all you more experienced bods...

I bought a new set of arrows... Gold Tip Ted Nugents 55/75... I bare shafted them and they were perfectly tuned to my bow but when I shot a couple I'd fletched yesterday they flew like my nock point was too high. I'm shooting off the shelf using a rug rest on a Hoyt Gamemaster 50# recurve. Arrows are helical fletched with 4" Gateway RW feathers

So this morning I bare shaft tested again and got perfect results. Then shot fletched shafts and same problem. I finally worked out it must be fletching contact so I adjusted the nock orientation (I index my nocks to cock feather out usually) and lo and behold, they start flying true.

They fly better with cock feather in but surprisingly they shoot perfectly with cock feather up??? I've never heard of anyone shooting cock feather up. Why would these arras be so different to my other sets that are spined and tuned the same??

I'm perfectly happy to shoot arrows with the cock feather wherever it needs to be to get the best flight but it's just got me stumped why they're flying like this??


Cheers, Tony

[Fanto]

I shoot one of my bows with the cock feather up, the other shoot cock feather out.

cheers

[matt61]

Black widow advises that you set up your arrows with the cock feather in the twelve o'clock position.
I found that when I did that I was able to lower my nocking point about five millimeters.Its because the
quill on the feather bounces of the shelf and makes you think you are nock high and with the cock
feather at twelve o'clock the quill fits through the corner of the shelf without hitting anything.You can
even make your rest material two peice to make the gap in the corner bigger so the quill has more room
to pass through especially if you are glueing your feathers on with bit of helical twist in them.
Cock feather in will give you a false spine indication as again the quill causes the back of the arrow
to bounce away from the riser. You can sand the quill of the feather as thin as possible to help as well.
Matt

[Rich]

Sometimes you need to let the bow tell you what it likes the best

[Bent Stick]

Slinky it's coz your using those imperfect carbon thingy's mate, if you pick up the right spined stick off the ground and bung some feathers on it, it doesn't really care where your cock feather is, obviously the grain alignment and spine do matter and usually line up the cock feather the same each time so you know where your spine is.

Seriously though mate; elimination of the variables leaves you with a root cause, it's a carbon, your bow isn't tuned most likely knocking point a tad low.

"Ok that was a bit serious for too long"

Maybe the cock feather is tickling your nose in the offending cock feather position and your subconsciously plucking or something.

Those carbon thingy's are fugly on a timber bow mate it's the timber imperfection that gives you the er........ lol have fun sorting it out mate, a bad day missing still beats working.

[Boris]

lol have fun sorting it out mate, a bad day missing still beats working.

Hell yes x 20 gazillion

[Roadie]

I have arows with 4 feathers, and some with 3 feathers, and they all seem to work for me. I have never had any of my game taken complain about whether the cock feather was in or out when it was hit. What ever Floats your Boat. Cheers Roadie.

[perry]

Tony the accepted Cock Feather out recommendation has stumped me for Years as the bottom Hen Feather even with a correctly spined Arrow and tuned Bow can still contact the Sight Window. I have been shooting Cock Feather in for years. Rotating the Nock for best clearance as you have is an old trick and good practice.

If you want to get Anal about Arrow Tuning, Carbon Arrows are not exactly the same Spine 360 degree's around the Shaft, they are very uniform but not the same. It's a good idea to use a Spine Jig to determine a common Spine to set the Nocks to across your set of Carbon Arrows.

regards Jacko

[daniel boon]

Abe Penner from Cari-Bow, also says cock feather up.

[slinkymalinky]

Tony the accepted Cock Feather out recommendation has stumped me for Years as the bottom Hen Feather even with a correctly spined Arrow and tuned Bow can still contact the Sight Window. I have been shooting Cock Feather in for years. Rotating the Nock for best clearance as you have is an old trick and good practice.

If you want to get Anal about Arrow Tuning, Carbon Arrows are not exactly the same Spine 360 degree's around the Shaft, they are very uniform but not the same. It's a good idea to use a Spine Jig to determine a common Spine to set the Nocks to across your set of Carbon Arrows.

regards Jacko

Thanks Perry,

Makes a lot of sense... I spent half an hour shooting down the back this afternoon and after experimenting more with feather orientation I confirmed that the Ted Nugents fly beautifully (and clearly best) with cock feather up. The difference in flight between the accepted cock feather out and cock feather up is so pronounced that it's instantly and clearly visible even to someone who's never shot an arrow before... it will make a really interesting demo for any people down at the club who might want to insist that there is 'only one correct way' to index a nock.

After finishing with my Gold Tip Teds I thought I'd play with some of my other arrows... I've got the remnants of a set of Easton Flatlines that I've been shooting (cock feather out) a lot and I've been more than satisfied with their flight and my accuracy with them. I had a good shoot down at Tweed 3d on Sunday with them. Guess what... I reoriented the nocks so they were cock feather up and my already satisfactory grouping (by my own low standards ) suddenly tightened up by a further 1/3.

Not sure why the Gold Tips showed up this particular quirk of my bow so much more obviously than any of my other arrows but it seems its something to do with the combination of my Gamemaster and the way I shoot. I'm not going to question it... there are so many variables in archery that whatever works best is what's right and that's going to be different for every person, every bow, every arrow, etc, etc, etc.


Cheers, Tony

PS... Bent Stick, I triple checked my nock point height and arrow spine tune with yet another round of bare shaft testing and it was absolutely spot on and giving perfectly horizontal, straight flight from up close and then out to 15m... in fact the flight was so good I would have happily done a 3d round with bare arras. But as soon as the feathers went on the Ted Nugents... they flew like dolphins (until I went cock feather up)... you're still dead right though. It was just a process of eliminating variables but the root cause in this case is the nock indexing...

As for the carbon thingies, I'm going to keep shooting them at least until I get my longbow... then I'll surround myself with wood, brass, leather and suede for a while.

[Fanto]

tony

further to what perry said,

carbons all have a strong side and a weak side. you can find it by holding the arrow in your left hand just below the fletch. hold them at 45 degrees, with the point resting on a marble/ other hard surface.

push on the arrow to bend it an inch or so, and roll it back and forth, you'll feel a "lump" which is the stiff side.

I have heard that its best to align them stiff side horizontal, but who knows. there is a difference for sure

cheers

[slinkymalinky]

Just the same as orienting the backbone of a carbon fishing rod blank. Next set I fletch I'll give it a try and see if I can pick up any detectable improvement in flight consistency.

With fishing rods the backbone of the blank is usually aligned in the same plane as the working curve of the rod, so I might try aligning the arras horizontally. I reckon though that if there's an improvement to be had it will come more from just ensuring every shaft has its backbone aligned the same way, regardless of where that might be.

Thanks for the info, T

[CraigH]

Another way to find the stiff side of the carbons spine, is to plug both ends with knocks, put them in water or bath tub with a bit of soap/bubbles.

Apparently the stiff side or (can't remember which one) weak side will turn to the top. Mark the top side floating with a texta/marker. Rod Jenkins apparently does this to find the stiff spine side.

[matt61]

I have just been rolling them on on the top of one of my bits and peices tackle boxes.
Heavy side which will be stiffer went to the bottom every time,Easton aluminiums roll beautiful.
Matt

[perry]

Good tips there Fella's, I use my Spine Jig but it's good to know other methods

regards Jacko

[Chase N. Nocks]

Very interesting. I have heard of the advocates of cock feather in but not up.

I will definitely have to give this a go.

cheers
Troy