Adjustable string nock, spine, deflection etc

[Buranurra]

Hi all,

I found this link on tying an adjustable string nock that looks the biz. Many of you have probably seen it or know how to do it, but for those like me it is a good vid.

http://youtu.be/j8EghWvyUcA

Cheers

Jase

[Fanto]

just gotta watch that they don't start moving on their own, they do it sometimes and you wonder why you keep missing shots!

[Stickbow Hunter]

I have seen that one but thanks for posting it up here for others to see. I have no need for a moveable nocking point so I just make one using dental floss.

Jeff

[Buranurra]

In my noob mind I am confused when I think that string stretch and if I continue to use a set brass nock, how do I tune without having to open up the jaws of the brass nock, then move it up or down etc?

I am very keen to get advice on this aspect

cheers


Jase

[GrahameA]

... how do I tune without having to open up the jaws of the brass nock, then move it up or down etc?

It is normal for bow-strings to stretch along their complete length. Would you normally adjust your nocking point if you wound or unwound a string to change its brace height?

[Stickbow Hunter]

In my noob mind I am confused when I think that string stretch and if I continue to use a set brass nock, how do I tune without having to open up the jaws of the brass nock, then move it up or down etc?

I am very keen to get advice on this aspect

cheers


Jase

Jase, I'm probably the wrong person to listen to because I'm old school and believe in the KISS principal. With all my bows I place my nocking point in the same place (3/8" above right angles to the shelf) and my arrows fly well. When I make a new string I put it on the bow and usually stretch it for a bit and then let it sit for a couple of hours and then serve it and put my nocking point on. As I said above, I use dental floss to make my nocking point and it is glued in place with super glue. I do not have problems. If my string does stretch a little a couple of twists on the string makes no discernible difference to the nocking point location.

I think the same about tuning arrows; I have never bare shaft tuned in my life or have ever seen the need for it. I cut my shafts to the length I want them and use a spine that flies right and leave it at that. I actually shoot what is considered way over spined arrows 100% of the time but they fly beautifully for me. I actually shake my head in wonder when I hear people say they bare shaft tune their arrows and cut a 1/4" off at a time to see which flies the best. In all honesty how many of us on here are good enough shots to be able to tell the difference?

Much of the time I think people try and over complicate the whole tuning issue and newbies just get confused. To me just get your nocking point set at what is considered right for your bow, get arrows that are supposed to be a close match for your bow and go fling some arrows. Once you have shot a bit and feel the arrows just aren't flying correctly you can then make an adjustment to see if things improve.

It might seem by my comments above that I don't see the need for proper flying arrows but that isn't the case. I am a Bowhunter first and foremost so I need my arrows to be flying very well so as to straighten up ASAP because I often shoot at very close ranges. I just don't believe the tuning issue is as complicated as what I see a lot of people making it out to be. Also I must mention I only shoot wood or bamboo arrows and shoot with a Mederterainian release (split fingers).

Jeff

[Gringa Bows]

I agree with you Jeff, Kiss Kiss

[GrahameA]

Hi All

Much of the time I think people try and over complicate the whole tuning issue....

IMHO It is not that people overcomplicate the issue it is rather that they do not know what they are trying to achieve. Nor are they sure when the have achieved it.

[Fanto]

Jeff

I am obviously one of the confused newbies here. My problems, although not major, started with the shop selling me 3555s to use out of my 55# bow. These were underspined, by a lot, and he swore that they woud be great because he uses them with much more point weight and out of much heavier bows. I have had the sudden urge to tune arrows because the ones I have which are under by anything upto 25# were all over the place and whilst i can hit bottle caps at 15yds, i was struggling to hit hay bales at 25 with left/right misses. reducing the point weight fixed the left right issues, but I want to shoot hunting weight arrows from all my bows becuase im in it for the huntin' not just the shootin'!

I too wish to chose my arrow length, which I have, as well as broadhead weight. Ive slected a shaft spine to suit.

I will be quiet now

thanks

[GrahameA]

Read This.

http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downlo ... _guide.pdf

Consider this. Given that Easton are the biggest manufacturer of Arrows and Arrow shafts in the world, their arrows have probably won more archery events than everyone else combined perhaps there is a slight possibilty that they may know what they are talking about.

[Buranurra]

In my noob mind I am confused when I think that string stretch and if I continue to use a set brass nock, how do I tune without having to open up the jaws of the brass nock, then move it up or down etc?

I am very keen to get advice on this aspect

cheers


Jase

Jase, I'm probably the wrong person to listen to because I'm old school and believe in the KISS principal. With all my bows I place my nocking point in the same place (3/8" above right angles to the shelf) and my arrows fly well. When I make a new string I put it on the bow and usually stretch it for a bit and then let it sit for a couple of hours and then serve it and put my nocking point on. As I said above, I use dental floss to make my nocking point and it is glued in place with super glue. I do not have problems. If my string does stretch a little a couple of twists on the string makes no discernible difference to the nocking point location.

I think the same about tuning arrows; I have never bare shaft tuned in my life or have ever seen the need for it. I cut my shafts to the length I want them and use a spine that flies right and leave it at that. I actually shoot what is considered way over spined arrows 100% of the time but they fly beautifully for me. I actually shake my head in wonder when I hear people say they bare shaft tune their arrows and cut a 1/4" off at a time to see which flies the best. In all honesty how many of us on here are good enough shots to be able to tell the difference?

Much of the time I think people try and over complicate the whole tuning issue and newbies just get confused. To me just get your nocking point set at what is considered right for your bow, get arrows that are supposed to be a close match for your bow and go fling some arrows. Once you have shot a bit and feel the arrows just aren't flying correctly you can then make an adjustment to see if things improve.

It might seem by my comments above that I don't see the need for proper flying arrows but that isn't the case. I am a Bowhunter first and foremost so I need my arrows to be flying very well so as to straighten up ASAP because I often shoot at very close ranges. I just don't believe the tuning issue is as complicated as what I see a lot of people making it out to be. Also I must mention I only shoot wood or bamboo arrows and shoot with a Mederterainian release (split fingers).

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

What you say makes sense. I am probably guilty of over thinking this and KISS is a principle dear to my heart.

... how do I tune without having to open up the jaws of the brass nock, then move it up or down etc?

It is normal for bow-strings to stretch along their complete length. Would you normally adjust your nocking point if you wound or unwound a string to change its brace height?

Hi Grahame,

I would think yes to that question, however with my predator I kept the string on overnight and drew the string quite a few times to encourage any creep and then set the brass nock after I set the brace height. I probably should get the square out and check it.

Hi Fanto,

I think the knot used in the vid is made to twist up and down but stay in position.

Cheers fellas

Jase

[WOLF]

I follow that same principal as Jeff

I have " KISS " printed on a piece of A4 paper above my work bench.
Just to remind me of not getting complicated in doing things
Just keeping it simple is sometimes the best option and this I find often works the best.

[Fanto]

Read This.

http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downlo ... _guide.pdf

Consider this. Given that Easton are the biggest manufacturer of Arrows and Arrow shafts in the world, their arrows have probably won more archery events than everyone else combined perhaps there is a slight possibilty that they may know what they are talking about.

Thanks Graham, that is a similar document to the one I was using

http://www.archersreference.pwp.blueyon ... ref_04.pdf

there seems to be only one major disagreement between the Olympic archery fraternity and the traditionalists like Byron Ferguson and a few more anonymous authors, being that the oly. crowd do not consider bareshaft impact angle to be of any significance. Mr. Ferguson uses this as his primary shaft selection criteria.

The only issue I have with the Easton guide is that it is based on the use of plungers and rests to set the left/right. not sure how to reconcile this with what im doing. I think ill just shoot my bow lots and see what happens!

[kerrille]

my uncle has the right idea when he makes arras ,if the shoot left givem to someone else if they shoot right givem to someone else, if they shoot straight ...keep em .with 8 archers in my family shooting 30#to 80# i find the same works well for me .

...nev...

[Fanto]

Nev,

It just hit me, instead of fretting about my arrows matching the bow, I just need to buy more bows until i find ones that match my arrows!! Genius!

[Buranurra]

Nev,

It just hit me, instead of fretting about my arrows matching the bow, I just need to buy more bows until i find ones that match my arrows!! Genius!

I like your logic mate!

[Stickbow Hunter]

Nev,

It just hit me, instead of fretting about my arrows matching the bow, I just need to buy more bows until i find ones that match my arrows!! Genius!

Now that's an idea for sure!!!

Jeff

[kerrille]

works for me

....nev...

[Dennis La Varenne]

Jase,

Jeff and I do pretty much the same with string nock location and arrows. I choose arrow shafts which are stiff enough to 'stand in the bow' as Roger Ascham described it so long ago. Over- stiffness is not the problem and never has been. Weak arrows have always been because in testing I have found that they tend to bounce off the arrow plate with a noticeable 'clack' and wriggle away to the same side which is to the left from a right handed bow and not to the right as handed down 'wisdom' has always dictated.

Interestingly, also from testing, arrows spined in excess of +20lbs for my bow weight ALSO tend to shoot to the left a bit but not excessively which is something which handed down 'wisdom' also predicts. This is not a problem for me because of my natural moderate cant. It only presents when I deliberately hold my bow plumb vertical as part of a test procedure. Any moderate degree of cant seems to obviate any left-shooting problems from overspined arrows.

In my practical shooting, overspine is never an issue even if I shoot a mixed bag of arrow spines, so long as they are NOT underspined. I suspect neither did it matter to our ancestors.

The science in archery was invented to help us understand the how and why, but we seem to have put the cart before the horse these days and given ourselves the mindset that if I want 'x' result, then I must do this and that rather than take the pragmatic approach of starting with proven practice from ages past and tinkering and adjusting ONLY if problems show. Like Jeff, I have never bareshaft tested a bow/arrow combination in my entire 30+ years in archery and never had a problem. But it is a tool to keep in one's toolbox in case the need arises.

But I never open the toolbox and start working on my equipment before I have shot it and proven that there is a problem first. That always seems to be the issue I perceive whenever the issue of bare-shafting arises. Aspirant archers 'under advice' seem to start the whole process as if they already have a serious equipment problem BEFORE they begin shooting, and then want to work backwards to get a result - a process which has always impressed me as arsey-turvey.

Forget adjustable string nocks. The only reliable string nock is one which does not move . . . EVER.

As Jeff suggests, string your bow and let is sit and stretch on the bow for a reasonable period. Serve it and nock it using this simple formula (or Jeff's).

On a bow which is positive tillered (the vast majority of bows), set the string nock point above horizontal by the amount of positive tiller in the upper limb.

Most commercial trad bows leave the factory with about 2mm of positive tiller which is designed to fit the draw geometry of the majority of shooters. Set your arrow on the bow at 90º to the string and fit your string nock 2mm above the arrow and LEAVE IT ALONE.

[Buranurra]

Hi Dennis

Thanks very much for such a thorough response and explanation. Non- adjustable it is now.

On the matter of spine stiffness, I have some Carbon Express Heritage 150 and 250s that I bought a little while ago. I asked the bowyer Dan Toelke what he recommended for my new bow. He shoots the same bow and poundage and as luck would have it also uses CX Heritage. He recommended the 250s without hesitation as this is what he uses.

I took the arrows to the only shop in town to get them cut down to my size, only to have the shop owner roll his eyes at me like I was a fool and then proceeded to tell me the arrows were massively over spined for the 57# and only suitable for a 60# compound. He grudging agreed to cut them for me for $30!!!

I do want to go woodies soon though and get into making my own.

THanks again

Jase

[Dennis La Varenne]

Jase,

I don't know anything about syntharrows of any creed or colour.

Except for one shoot at Ballarat about 20 years ago when I used some old Graphlex fibreglass arrows, I have never owned any syntharrows. So, I cannot offer any comment about carbons of any kind or what can be done with any of them. I have, however, successfully made and used heavy spined shafting from Bunnings hardwood dowel. I spined them by flexing them between my fingers over about arrow length, bought a few 10m lengths and proceeded to cut them to arrow length and the rest was successful shooting. I spined them AFTER I had cut the shafts to length to see what I had. They were prodigiously stiff and barely registered on my spine jig, but shot like darts and still do.

Once I knew that they were definitely NOT underspined, I did not concern myself with them. They were finished, headed and fletched and were perfectly satisfactory for any use except perhaps longer distance target shooting because their great mass would produce a somewhat rainbow trajectory. As hunters, they were and are superb. I also have some hunting shafts which are made from Bunnings lengthways grooved dowel which is just as good as the smoothies.

I have a preference for long 5 1/2 inch parabolic feathers if the bow draws over 50lbs which may help. Moderate speed is quite acceptable for me. If I can achieve about 150fps, I am satisfied.

From time to time, there is much to do about canting a bow and problems with shot consistency, but I have a consistent natural cant which I do not alter unless or until I was required to for 'challenging' shots at some trad. shoots. But that simple fact of form seems to make a huge positive difference in the variety of arrows I can shoot well.

I would not suggest that it is a target shooting competition winning technique for one second, but for hunting distances, it is simple, reliable and unproblematical.

[Fanto]

Dennis

wise words as always,

cheers

Fanto

[Dennis La Varenne]

If I were to have a go at syntharrows, I would ignore the accompanying charts and simply check their spine using my old spine jig. I know from years of testing, using and proving that those deflection numbers in thousandths of an inch are reliable. I use the old Archery Action slide calculator as a guide, but the actual spine numbers are from my calibrated jig. I don't use the Archery Action dial, for the simple reason that every printer which prints it out prints it at slightly different sizes and hence makes it less reliable. But the AA slider is quite accurate and is based on a fairly simple formula which allows for different head masses, which in turn relates directly (but unintentionally in those times) to FoC and the effect that has on dynamic spine.

I have often wondered with the use of syntharrows that perhaps their proponents trust too much to published charts rather than either checking their published spine rating against their actual deflection using the standard 2lb weight to see if the two match, ie. that the published syntharrow charts correlate with an actual spine reading using a spine jig.

My jig is calibrated in thousandths of an inch in increments of 50thou. It is not set up according to anybody's published recommendations. So, if an arrow shows 'X' deflection and that deflection is recommended for a specific draw weight, I could test it from a bow of that draw weight to see if it actually works. Those old charts were surprisingly reliable.

The thing is, that from doing this kind of testing over many years, I came to the conclusions above that so long as the arrow was not much underspined for any bow, then the arrows would shoot well.

Significantly, it worked out that the degree of overspine did not seem to matter, which was a bit of a surprise contrary to handed down wisdom. All arrows flew like darts. If I deliberately held my bow plumb, then seriously overspined arrows would shoot left away from the bow by a moderate amount, but most importantly, THEY STILL FLEW WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST DEGREE OF WOBBLE OR ERRATIC FLIGHT. They flew in a dead straight wobble-less line.

Just because an arrow hits left is NOT poor arrow flight. It is a simple matter of aim correction for those who do aim and a matter of brain compensation for those who shoot instinctively.

CONCERNING INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING
If you shoot instinctively and a new batch of arrows hits at a different spot to where your arrows usually hit, then just keep shooting and gradually they will start to hit where you look. Your brain will do the compensating for you and gradually correct the position of your bow arm without your being aware of it.

MOST IMPORTANTLY FOR INSTINCTIVE SHOOTERS, YOU MUST NOT DELIBERATELY TRY TO COMPENSATE YOUR AIM. This is crucial for instinctive shooting to work. You must let your brain work unconsciously. It will always do it for you quite reliably if you trust it.

However, we instinctive shooters do suffer if we chop and change equipment. Once we are onto something which works, we MUST stick to that without deviation. Instinctive shooting does not respond very quickly or easily to change. Once you have a set of arrows which shoot where you look, then it becomes crucial to make all your arrows to that same pattern within narrow limits. Changing bows can also have a similar effect especially if the handle design changes, but that is onto another issue.

Both the advantage and disadvantage of instinctive shooting is that one becomes 'grooved' into a specific equipment set and the style does not easily respond to change. In this respect, deliberate aiming styles do have an advantage, but are far more reliant upon knowing target distance (and target speed if it is moving) quite accurately in order to make the necessary accurate changes in aim.

However, for hunting, I have never had as much satisfaction from a shot as those occasions where I have seen a goat on the run and the next thing I realised was that I had drawn and shot an arrow which flew in slow motion across the distance between us and into the lethal triangle of the goat without consciously taking the decision to shoot, knowing how fast it was running, or how distant it was. If you asked me how I did it, I could not give you an answer. But, I have also made some spectacular misses because I tried to consciously compensate for a missed shot.

[Fanto]

CONCERNING INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING
If you shoot instinctively and a new batch of arrows hits at a different spot to where your arrows usually hit, then just keep shooting and gradually they will start to hit where you look. Your brain will do the compensating for you and gradually correct the position of your bow arm without your being aware of it.

Dennis,

Because I have a few bows, im trying to figure out a way of selecting arrows that fly the same out of all three (at least in the left/right aiming) , so that I can switch between them at will without thinking about it. I am getting some decent progress now, thanks for all the advice on this.

My biggest surprise is the difficulty in finding properly or overly spined arrows for bows 55# and up, especially cut past centre.

In regards to Stu Miller's calculator, I was a bit sceptical about its accuracy because my arrows which were 40lb undersipned were shooting fine, at one distance practiced very often. The problem with these shafts was changing the distance, the arrows were all over the place. When the arrows were changed to give an ideal match on Stu's calculator, lo and behold they shoot consistently and different arrows from different bows started to shoot the same.

By way of example as to how difficult it is to select a carbon shaft, for those like me who prefer a heavy arrow in excess of 10 grains per pound and a heavy broadhead, with a proper spine to carry a 100gr brass insert plus a 300gr broadhead, when shot from a Martin Hunter 60lb (cut 3/6 past centre) would be a Carbon Tech Safari. Even the Easton FMJ dangerous game 250 spine would fall short by 20lbs of dynamic spine!

[GrahameA]

Morning

....I have a few bows, im trying to figure out a way of selecting arrows that fly the same out of all three (at least in the left/right aiming) , so that I can switch between them at will without thinking about it. I am getting some decent progress now, thanks for all the advice on this

IMHO

I have seen this same Holy Grail of "one Arrow suiting a range of bows" more than once. I have yet to seen anyone achieve it. The closest are people who own one set of arrow and a collection of similar bows and accept that the arrows will never be perfect.

If you want the bows to shot close close to the same get a set of of arrows for each bow and carry all three so you can choose the apprpriate arrow for each bow.

My biggest surprise is the difficulty in finding properly or overly spined arrows for bows 55# and up, especially cut past centre.

A none issue. Make your own shafts. Or buy a set of shafts/arrows from Steve Wallace.

[GrahameA]

Morning.
IMHO

... I took the arrows to the only shop in town to get them cut down to my size, only to have the shop owner roll his eyes at me like I was a fool and then proceeded to tell me the arrows were massively over spined for the 57# and only suitable for a 60# compound. He grudging agreed to cut them for me for $30!!!

I do want to go woodies soon though and get into making my own.

You did not have to accept the price. Why did you not buy arrows that were cut to the required length in the first place? If you purchased the arrows from another seller then you probably got them cut cheap.

[Fanto]

Jase

those CEs are probably overspined if you use 85gr points, but probably underspined if you run 250gr point weight.

GrahameA,

I see now I was not clear. I want to use a different set of arrows for each bow, but for each combination to shoot the same!!

I also forgot to mention something interesting about Stu's calculator in terms of calibration of the tool and its accuracy. In Become The Arrow, Byron lists his preferred shaft (aluminium, 2219s i think it was) broadhead, arrow length, feather choice, draw weight and bow centre cut, which enabled me to run this data on the calculator. The arrows were within 2# of spine to the calculators reccomended perfect spine.

cheers

[Buranurra]

Jase

those CEs are probably overspined if you use 85gr points, but probably underspined if you run 250gr point weight.

I was intending to use 125gr points. To be honest I thought these would sit in the cupboard or go onto a classifieds somewhere and was surprised when the bowyer recommended those arrows.

Morning.
IMHO

... I took the arrows to the only shop in town to get them cut down to my size, only to have the shop owner roll his eyes at me like I was a fool and then proceeded to tell me the arrows were massively over spined for the 57# and only suitable for a 60# compound. He grudging agreed to cut them for me for $30!!!

I do want to go woodies soon though and get into making my own.

You did not have to accept the price. Why did you not buy arrows that were cut to the required length in the first place? If you purchased the arrows from another seller then you probably got them cut cheap.

Fair enough comment Grahame. I bought them from OS with a bunch of other stuff and I didn't really know what length to use and to be quite frank I didn't really have much of an idea of anything . They come nocked and fletched with inserts.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Fanto,

Here is a bit of controversial advice for nothing.

WHY ON EARTH HAVE YOU GOT A BOW CUT PAST CENTRE?

Arrows are meant to have a sideways pressure against them as they launch. If they do not have that pressure, they cannot bend consistently around the bow. The pressure against the arrow from the arrow plate is what controls how the arrow bends around the bow and to what degree. If there is no side pressure from the arrow plate against the arrow, the same arrow can flex both away and toward the bow as it launches and the flight will be different each time.

I suggest quite strongly that you build out the arrowplate to a minimum of alignment with the string so that your arrows 'know' in which direction they should bend as they pass the bow. They will then bend away from the bow as they pass it in exactly the same way and by the same amount each time and fly in exactly the same each time.

Forget Stu Miller's calculator and build yourself a spine tester.

There are some very basic rules for getting arrow spine right. Having worked out the nominal amount of deflection for a given arrow with a 125gn head at a 28 inch draw which is the standard -
1. For every 1/8 inch an arrow is out wider than centre shot, allow a 5lbs lower spine rating;
2. For every 10gns greater arrow-head mass than 125gns, allow 5lbs greater spine;
3. For every 10gns lower arrow-head mass than 125gns, allow 5lbs lower spine;
4. NEVER have a bow with negative centre shot (arrow plate inside the string line away from the arrow). It does NOT make a bow more tolerant of a wider range of arrow spines. It makes them more erratic.

That is the reason why the compounders always have to have pressure buttons against arrows and have the devil's own time fiddling with them to get the outward pressure against their arrows right. They would not have had a problem if they did not go with the hair-brained hypothesis that bows with negative centre shot let arrows pass with less bending. That was always incorrect! They still bend just as much because the columnar bending load on the nock end of the arrow causes a specific amount of bending related to the amount of thrust of the bowstring and the stiffness of the arrow.

The problem is that the arrows can bend toward or away from the arrow plate with no control over which way the bending occurs. That affects where the arrow strikes and makes it less reliable. If the 'past centre-shot' hypothesis worked, there would be no need for pressure buttons to do what a humble trad bow arrow plate has done perfectly well for centuries.

I have attached a PDF of the old Archery Action article on building your own spine jig. It is based on 27 inches between supports contrary to the international standard of 26 inches. If you reduce the weight from 2lbs to 907 grammes or you can reduce the support distance to 26 inches and use my dial which is calibrated in thousandths of an inch, but MUST be printed at exactly the dimensions shown on the face. I have attached that picture as well.

Arrow Spine Jig Article.pdf

(748.83 KiB) Downloaded 116 times

My Spine dial.pdf

(112.22 KiB) Downloaded 109 times

[Fanto]

Thanks for all of that info Dennis,

I had\ two bows cut past centre, i have built both of them out just past centre, and after reading the Easton tuning guide i moved the strike plate forward a little so it sits under the front node of the arrow. Im not sure of the impact of this as yet, but all of the building out did not make the arrows shoot left, they fly better and go exactly where I am looking.


I hope i am not annoying you with all this discussion about bow setup! I dont just sit and meddle with these bows and nothing more - I do shoot huge numbers of arrows each day and im striving for better and better shooting.

cheers!