How long do you hold at full draw?

[bodkin]

I have spoken to a few guys about the time i hold (or used to when i was in form) at full draw. But the main people that seem concerned are


1- Experienced men concerned about my shoulders because of the weight i pull

2-bowyers, who are shooting selfbows and im trying to imply, without glass. Apparently holding a selfbow at full draw for too long can assist with string-follow or other problems relative to selfbows.

Im certainly interested in point No.2
Has anyone heard or experienced such?

Scuzz

Hi All, months late I know but this is one of my pet foibles. If you make and shoot selfbows, especially heavy ones, you pull out smoothly to full draw and release as soon as you touch your anchor. This is good for the wood, and good for you. if you hold it induces timber fatigue, and muscle fatigue, and damage. There is a condition called hysterisis (hope I've spelled that right) which affects the draw weight too, the longer you hold, the weaker the bow gets. This is only for selfbows of course. Modern materials you can hold for ever, especially compounds, which are of course left strung. Mind you I have heard of several cases of competition archers opening their bow cases to find their bow has exploded. But I feel that it's still best for your body to anchor and release quickly. it also encourages a more instinctive style of shot, which is good for hunting. Speed is good. All those battlefield movies where you see lines of archers waiting with their bows at full draw are nonsense. There'd be bows and shoulders exploding all over the place. The command was 'Loose', not 'Draw'. Minimum of 12 arrows a minute per archer shooting warbow. Let her rip.

[asparky]

Hi all

l hold for between 3 to 5 sec .. the bow that l am using l now draw 40# with (modified grip)
like Kevin when l shoot target allow time between arrows 4min is a long time and always finish with 1 min on clock

[Stickbow Hunter]

There is a condition called hysterisis (hope I've spelled that right) which affects the draw weight too, the longer you hold, the weaker the bow gets. This is only for selfbows of course.

Hysteresis does actually affect glass composite Trad bows as well as self bows but not to the same extent.

Jeff

[asparky]

Hysteresis very interesting .

I'm shooting an american flat bow. Constructed of laminated bamboo with glass. I have been shooting out for 3 Years now would shoot it min of 3 times a week and put at least 100 arrows per session.at 60m l now with my 1914's and 100grain points. Point of aim is on gold best score is 245 with 36 arrows at that distance am convinced that a 280 is not impossible. If hysteresis is a problem would it appeared by now???

[bodkin]

Hysteresis very interesting .

I'm shooting an american flat bow. Constructed of laminated bamboo with glass. I have been shooting out for 3 Years now would shoot it min of 3 times a week and put at least 100 arrows per session.at 60m l now with my 1914's and 100grain points. Point of aim is on gold best score is 245 with 36 arrows at that distance am convinced that a 280 is not impossible. If hysteresis is a problem would it appeared by now???

Hi Guenter, good to see you on this forum. I've only just joined myself. I can't access Archery Forum any more, "access forbidden by Apache server," or something. Must have upset Geronimo. This is a better site for us trad guys anyway. I even feel wanted!
Didn't think hysteresis affected Modern Longbows, any more than it would effect modern Olympic Recurve. Some of our guys hold so long they run out of time, and panic! Joe Vardon's 60M score of 261 has stood for 8 years now. It will be good to see you run it down and push out to 1100. Good shooting.

[woodie]

Scuzz I can hold at full draw for as long as I need but I find my accuracy fails me if I do hold, on the running pig I do hold and track the pig which maybe I should practice more at holding full draw.

woodie

[Fraser]

Hysteresis is definitely an interesting subject, I knew you could damage a self bow by holding at full draw for to long, didn't no the name for the condition though, or that it could effect glass backed bows. When I was shooting lite bows I had a habit of standing on the marker and continuing the general conversation at full draw for god knows how long, would normally miss as a result, maybe I should stop that habit.

Fraser.

[scuzz]

Scuzz I can hold at full draw for as long as I need but I find my accuracy fails me if I do hold, on the running pig I do hold and track the pig which maybe I should practice more at holding full draw.

woodie

It was only a bit of constructive criticism woody
But as Jeff has said not everyone holds, and is not entirely necessary for accuracy.

Hysteresis is definitely an interesting subject, I knew you could damage a self bow by holding at full draw for to long, didn't no the name for the condition though, or that it could effect glass backed bows. When I was shooting lite bows I had a habit of standing on the marker and continuing the general conversation at full draw for god knows how long, would normally miss as a result, maybe I should stop that habit.

Fraser.

I do find that there is a point with holding a glass longbow, where less energy seems to go into the arrow. And thus limiting cast/performance. But ive found it mainly with excessive holding. Holding for a moment to ensure a solid anchor has always helped my accuracy.

Having started shooting a selfbow (albeit bamboo backed) i do find limb follow being noticable after a shooting session. Once rested it does seem to spring back though. The string follow being worse on a hot day, than a cold. Maybe 'hysteresis' is always present within a self bow to some extent.

Scuzz

[asparky]

Hi Bodkin good to see you are here as well there are a few others that are on both..are you going to the AA nationals??
be nice to have a yarn if you are..

But as to how long one should hold at full draw there has to be a compromise if accuracy is wanted . ln my opinion , snap shooting will never produce consistant results .
my pb's are,on a 122 face 245@60m, 283@50, on a 80cm 267@40, 301@30 shooting 36 arrows at each distance Fita Field unmarked 295, marked 284

[woodie]

Thats alright scuzz I didn't take it to heart. When I learnt to shoot there was no clubs around and I tought myself to shoot and there for have a lot of bad habits. You had a few more people to teach you and learnt better habits. If I teach anyone I try to tell them the right things to do and say "don't do what I do".
At the end of the day it works for me mostof the time anyway.
woodie

[Fraser]

Scuzz, I've also noted that same limb follow when I unstrung my new bow (Osage orange) always returns after a bit of time. Also noted that I shot heavy bows better then lite. I'm starting to believe there is such a think as being under bowed. I was able to get away with bad form because my wrist was strong enough to hold the bow with a cock in it with a minimal of bow torque. That all changed when I got a heavier bow, I had no choice but to fix my form problems.

Fraser

[Stickbow Hunter]

In relation to hysteresis affecting glass composite bows. When I was doing bow tests for magazines years ago data was collected from the bows to obtain a force draw curve and bow efficiency etc. We would draw a bow one inch at a time and record its weight at each inch of draw out to full draw and then remeasure the weight again at inch intervals as we let the bow go back to brace. There was always a weight difference between the drawing and let down weights.

Also take notice of any flat laid longbows when they are unstrung just after being shot. I don't think I have ever seen one that didn't have a little string follow. After resting this string follow comes out of some bows but with others it remains.

Jeff

[scuzz]

Scuzz, I've also noted that same limb follow when I unstrung my new bow (Osage orange) always returns after a bit of time. Also noted that I shot heavy bows better then lite. I'm starting to believe there is such a think as being under bowed. I was able to get away with bad form because my wrist was strong enough to hold the bow with a cock in it with a minimal of bow torque. That all changed when I got a heavier bow, I had no choice but to fix my form problems.

Fraser

I agree with the bolded in most aspects. If you shoot instinctively (or ideally 3D) then i believe shooting the highest weight you comfortable can does tighten your form. I shot my best with 75lb a few years ago, i however only shot 3D shoots of sorts. I am overbow'd shooting such weight now, but at the time i could handle such a weight from shooting from a young age with no breaks and practicing on a regular basis. Now having a 5year break with little practice, i think 65 would be my limit, and yet ideal.

However, if you were shooting FITA, or some similiar 'gap shooting' type of archery, then i believe shooting a heavier bow would tire the shooter out too much, encouraging poor form/technique. I think if counted, there would be quite a difference in the amount of arrows shot within a day between a 3D shoot and a FITA shoot. So possibly 55lb being my weight if i were to ever shoot at such an event. Offcourse just rough estimations on my part.

The irish archer eion, shoots enormous weights and yet still torques his bow. So i think poor technique is possible with these heavier bows. In addition shooting higher weight could encourage short drawing or inconsistant anchors aswell. But having said that, i guess that means your essentially overbow'd

Scuzz

[Fraser]

Scuzz, I've also noted that same limb follow when I unstrung my new bow (Osage orange) always returns after a bit of time. Also noted that I shot heavy bows better then lite. I'm starting to believe there is such a think as being under bowed. I was able to get away with bad form because my wrist was strong enough to hold the bow with a cock in it with a minimal of bow torque. That all changed when I got a heavier bow, I had no choice but to fix my form problems.

Fraser

I agree with the bolded in most aspects. If you shoot instinctively (or ideally 3D) then i believe shooting the highest weight you comfortable can does tighten your form. I shot my best with 75lb a few years ago, i however only shot 3D shoots of sorts. I am overbow'd shooting such weight now, but at the time i could handle such a weight from shooting from a young age with no breaks and practicing on a regular basis. Now having a 5year break with little practice, i think 65 would be my limit, and yet ideal.

However, if you were shooting FITA, or some similiar 'gap shooting' type of archery, then i believe shooting a heavier bow would tire the shooter out too much, encouraging poor form/technique. I think if counted, there would be quite a difference in the amount of arrows shot within a day between a 3D shoot and a FITA shoot. So possibly 55lb being my weight if i were to ever shoot at such an event. Offcourse just rough estimations on my part.

The irish archer eion, shoots enormous weights and yet still torques his bow. So i think poor technique is possible with these heavier bows. In addition shooting higher weight could encourage short drawing or inconsistant anchors aswell. But having said that, i guess that means your essentially overbow'd

Scuzz

Scuzz, I've never shoot FITA style shoots, ABA only. One thing I have noticed with heavy bows is that your grip and the position of you bow arm must be near perfect or you will torque the bow, your release how ever is much easier, the string will literally be ripped out you fingers.

Fraser

[lanky]

Thinking seriously about printing all this info off so i can read it it all at work!, so many good tips for this newbie!, thanks to everyone!

[wishsong]

However, if you were shooting FITA, or some similiar 'gap shooting' type of archery, then i believe shooting a heavier bow would tire the shooter out too much, encouraging poor form/technique. I think if counted, there would be quite a difference in the amount of arrows shot within a day between a 3D shoot and a FITA shoot. So possibly 55lb being my weight if i were to ever shoot at such an event. Offcourse just rough estimations on my part.
Scuzz

a quick perusal of the top IBO 3D shooters in the States ... shows that every winners circle , whether Recurve unaided , Trad recurve , Longbow ... they all use a reference point aiming system ... ditto Euro 3D circuit

I'd suggest that there isn't a "gap shooting" type of archery that differs from any other ... the difference IMHO will always be in form ,but the proof is in the pudding perhaps .
but the differences in "aiming" styles are generally overrated for anything 20 yards and under ... past that ? Well a dedicated aiming system using a refernce point wins every time .......

Watch dedicated gapper and IBO champ Rod Jenkins shoot the plastic cups that are glued onto flying paper plates as they whizz past him at 20 yrds .....
imho , its all a question of form ... not aiming style

But if you wanted to be genuinely competitive , I would suggest that history shows that hold and shoot gappers win every time

they do okay in the wild too
.... Schaefer, Sturgis , Wensel .............

and i write this as dyed in the wool instinctor
trying to break my bad habits but

and it would be interesting to see how many archers who "instinctively" shoot quickly can also hold and shoot with the same degree of accuracy ?

even with a really light poundage bow ?

If there is a difference it would suggest that one is not in control of their shot sequence

Its called target panic ........

[Macca]

Interesting thread, after Grahame suggested to time your hold I did. The outcome was 2-3 seconds, when this occurs my accuracy is good. Ever since I started my trad journey I have pondered with the concept of the phrase "Instinctive shooting". I have my own theories with this, I believe it is more of a split vision concept.

This concept of split vision is the way I shoot where my focus is on where I wish to hit but my secondary or peripheral is in the sight window, but with no real conscious looking at my arrow. Saying that I do start making reference to the arrow, when the distance gets to 40 – 45m, it becomes my point on. At this distance I can shoot very good groups.

Now we conducted a test for a few of the boys who “claimed” they were instinctive/snap shooters. This involved pitch black darkness and just a candle lit down range at 30 – 35m. The results were as what I expected, poor shooting and poor groups. The same test was repeated under good light conditions which resulted in far greater accuracy.

Although I have not been on the trad gear for a great length of time I have taken a lot on board through written material and observations. As far as snap shooting goes I have seen a few good ones but this has been limited to close targets. I have seen very few snap shooters that can group arrows very well at medium to long distances. I think that we all have an instinctive aspect which comes from our continuous form practice/training where the whole sequence becomes instinctive. I do believe that we all shoot with some degree of split vision/reference point and some of us just don’t know it.

Wishsong indicated and which I totally agree with “quick perusal of the top IBO 3D shooters in the States ... shows that every winners circle , whether Recurve unaided , Trad recurve , Longbow ... they all use a reference point aiming system ... ditto Euro 3D circuit. I'd suggest that there isn't a "gap shooting" type of archery that differs from any other ... the difference IMHO will always be in form ,but the proof is in the pudding perhaps . But the differences in "aiming" styles are generally overrated for anything 20 yards and under ... past that ? Well a dedicated aiming system using a reference point wins every time. Watch dedicated gapper and IBO champ Rod Jenkins shoot the plastic cups that are glued onto flying paper plates as they whizz past him at 20 yrds ..... imho , its all a question of form ... not aiming style".

I went to a shoot on Sunday in which I shot with Howard Occonell, who is an awesome shot even on a bad day with a borrowed bow and mismatched arrows. He is also a gap shooter and believes we all look at our arrows in some way shape or form and don't know it or refuse to think we do because some want to say "I am an instinctive shooter".

My thoughts whilst thinking out allowed, cheers Macca.

[asparky]

HI Bodkin

Nationals for AA are over not sure if you kept up with the results..
l set a few records with my gap shooting over the 2 days
60m 270, 50m 288, 40m 274, 30m 311
Fita 60 is now 1114 still believe that close to 1200 is still possible
Joe was shooting on the target next to me shooting his english longbow
he shoots that well

[scuzz]

I'd suggest that there isn't a "gap shooting" type of archery that differs from any other ... the difference IMHO will always be in form ,but the proof is in the pudding perhaps .
but the differences in "aiming" styles are generally overrated for anything 20 yards and under ... past that ? Well a dedicated aiming system using a refernce point wins every time .......

and it would be interesting to see how many archers who "instinctively" shoot quickly can also hold and shoot with the same degree of accuracy ?

even with a really light poundage bow ?

If there is a difference it would suggest that one is not in control of their shot sequence

Its called target panic ........

I do see what points you are making. I have only shot 3D trad events and i was generally fairly competitive and have always considered myself an 'instinctive' shooter. However i have always considered it to be a type of subconscious gap shooting. But the only real thing i consciously do in practice (in terms of aiming) is ensure my arrows aligned below my eye, giving line.

The heavier weight seems to give flatter projectory, basically enabling a lesser amound of aiming points, hence making 'instinctive' shooting a matter of form. I know i was getting pretty decent projectory at 35m today.

Now we conducted a test for a few of the boys who “claimed” they were instinctive/snap shooters. This involved pitch black darkness and just a candle lit down range at 30 – 35m. The results were as what I expected, poor shooting and poor groups. The same test was repeated under good light conditions which resulted in far greater

I went to a shoot on Sunday in which I shot with Howard Occonell, who is an awesome shot even on a bad day with a borrowed bow and mismatched arrows. He is also a gap shooter and believes we all look at our arrows in some way shape or form and don't know it or refuse to think we do because some want to say "I am an instinctive shooter".

My thoughts whilst thinking out allowed, cheers Macca.

Interesting! It does imply that some kind of peripheral vision is needed to 'instinctively' shoot. I have shot A spotlight shoot in Morwell one year, where i simply shot in darkness-from memory. But it did give a second to align.

Anyone who can compete with Howey is doing pretty well! Ive seen him dominate several Trad shoots.

Scuzz

[Ronster]

Hi all, I like to hold until my arm settles, between 2-4 seconds I would say. Maybe because my brain takes longer to get into gear . I shoot 45# dropped from 50# . This weight I can shoot all day long and a full weeekend Trad event without tiring. But I beleive you should experiment with them all and then settle on the style that best suits you and then practice and practice to develop good form.

Ronster

[littlejohn59]

I hold for 1 to 3 seconds before i loose.

But its horses for courses. The question should be for what purpose am i to use the bow?

Target archery or field.

Obviously in target archery you will loose more arrows in a day and its over longer distances
144 in a FITA comp. minimum plus practice arrows.

Field archery a lot less.
ABA 80 max plus practice. 3DAAA 30 in a day plus practice. Hunting maybe 10 arrows plus practice and its over shorter distances

Target shooting requires a little more alignment accuracy over a longer distance, so longer holding of the bow and arrow assists with this.

In the field our targets are closer and obviously accuracy is important but the shots need to be and can be taken a little quicker.(Most ppl dont have the luxury of shooting rabbit over 20 seconds)

So regardless of instinctive,aiming or face walking how long you hold at full draw for in field archery depends on the person and the poundage of the bow.

So what i have observed is use a light target bow for target shooting and a heavier bow for all else.

Yes the heavier bow offers a flatter trajectory but at what cost to the archer. By that i mean ask around and see how many archers have shoulder injuries or had operations for overbowing themselves. If you struggle to pull back the bow,need to thrust out your chest to pull back the string,grunt and groan while doing so or can't hold the bow at full draw for 3 seconds you are overbowed. Our bodies have to last us a life time. Is it worth saying i can pull back an 80 pound bow and in 2 years i need to give the sport up or i need an operation. How many people limber up before they shoot, let alone shoot a bow cold turkey?

What i do know is if i can hold the bow for a few seconds it gives me the chance to align the arrow, the bow, the target and the surroundings up and i score better.
This is not to say it a better method than any other but it works for me and we all need to find what works for you.

Getting off the subject a little i noticed a discussion above with regards to different styles shooting in the dark. If you are in the dark or light is dim, no matter what the method, shooting will be poor.
Basically if you cant see how can you shoot? As traddies we reference our sight,ears,muscles, brains
and light to take a shot.

I know many here are knowledgeable of the above, but i thought i might give the newbies and perhaps others something to think about when they shoot next.

[Ronster]

I am with you littlejohn59,you make some good points! I dont hunt, just target field and 3D. lighter bow definately better for target and not sore at the end of a good shoot!


Ronster

[rodlonq]

My two bobs worth. In many hunting situations I assume I am about to get busted. If nothing else, waggling your elbow around while drawing is a flag to game, so I like to be ready to loose the arrow as soon as I reach full draw, making alignment adjustments on the way back. I hold one or two seconds only when I am consciously working on form (like back tension), otherwise I practice to draw and loose in one fluid motion. Just my way, but I cant justify having to hold for a long period to be sure of alignment.

Cheers...... Rod