How long do you hold at full draw?

[dartonian]

Hi All,
I haven't been on here for a while... Shoulder issues have made shooting a bit unpleasant. Anyway, I bought a cheapy longbow of about 30lb to try rehab the shoulder. Having been shooting for a few weeks now and I'm finding I'm holding longer and everything feels nice and steady. Obviously, the shoulder is starting to strengthen again.

This got me thinking... Is there an optimum time to hold at full draw? I'm assuming that too long and either fatigue may effect form or you may start second guessing your instinct, too short and you are snap shooting... ( I'm thinking this would probably vary with style ie sighted vs barebow... instinctive vs gap etc).
Time is hard to judge, but i think I'm at full draw for about 3-5 seconds which I'm sure is longer than I ever held before when shooting my heavier bows, except for when shooting a (hhmmm pardon the language) compound.

Just interested to hear what others have to say...
Cheers,
Paul

[perry]

If I'm shooting well , a couple of seconds at most at a guess. Your Release should not be a conscious decision. Just let it happen. I have a crook Shoulder also and when it's playing up I shoot a 34# Bow. I do hold onto it longer than my other Bows. I use the lighter draw weight to work on my Form and practice making the best shot possible.

regards Jacko

[woodie]

I'm licky to hold it for a second, but that one of my bad habits I think.
Ron

[longbow steve]

I am the same as Perry and hold for a couple of seconds generally but will hold longer if everything doesn't feel right and if it doesn't come good I let down and draw again.
Glad to hear your shoulder is on the mend. Cheers Steve

[bear74]

If I'm shooting well , a couple of seconds at most at a guess. Your Release should not be a conscious decision. Just let it happen.
regards Jacko

x 3

[flyne]

2-3 sec at a guse

[Flatliner]

I hold as long as it takes to make the shot, somewhere between 1 and 3 seconds I would say.
I think if you can't hold at full draw comfortably for 5 seconds you are probabley over bowed by a few pounds, but thats my opinion.

Rob.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I don't hold at full draw at all.

Jeff

[scuzz]

Ive always held my longbow at full draw for a few seconds (except for the speed round at the gatherings). Possibly from learning to shoot with a compound, but i like to think its good practice for ensuring you have a solid anchor point. Ive seen alot of snap shooters with inconsistent draws and accuracy sacrificed due this fact.

Scuzz

[scuzz]

I'm licky to hold it for a second, but that one of my bad habits I think.
Ron

i think so woody. A little patience goes a long way.

Scuzz

[Stickbow Hunter]

Ive seen alot of snap shooters with inconsistent draws and accuracy sacrificed due this fact.

That is usually the case but I have seen some excellent controlled snap shooters that could hold their own against most archers. I am only talking of Bowhunters and field archers.

On the subject of snap shooting, Fred Bear was a controlled snap shooter from the footage I have seen of him shooting.

Jeff

[Buranurra]

... I find my best shots are on 3 with a relax and breath out on the 3rd second. When I get tired the hold probably goes to around 1 second though.

[scuzz]

Ive seen alot of snap shooters with inconsistent draws and accuracy sacrificed due this fact.

That is usually the case but I have seen some excellent controlled snap shooters that could hold their own against most archers. I am only talking of Bowhunters and field archers.

On the subject of snap shooting, Fred Bear was a controlled snap shooter from the footage I have seen of him shooting.

Jeff

Sure, i was not trying to say it was incorrect, just judging from my experience of attaining a decent level of accuracy with a longbow. I have seen new starters or snap shooters at HVTA hit close targets easily with half draw shots, where i dont have such 'instinct'. And i guess in some hunting situations you probably dont have 3-5seconds to make a shot. In addition, i have heard of people making impressive shots while hunting, and yet their performance on targets not reflecting this. It would be great to have such an instinct.

Any accuracy improvement i have attained however, has been through practice of form repitition and concentration.

Scuzz

[hazard]

Ive seen alot of snap shooters with inconsistent draws and accuracy sacrificed due this fact.

That is usually the case but I have seen some excellent controlled snap shooters that could hold their own against most archers. I am only talking of Bowhunters and field archers.

On the subject of snap shooting, Fred Bear was a controlled snap shooter from the footage I have seen of him shooting.

Jeff

Sure, i was not trying to say it was incorrect, just judging from my experience of attaining a decent level of accuracy with a longbow. I have seen new starters or snap shooters at HVTA hit close targets easily with half draw shots, where i dont have such 'instinct'. And i guess in some hunting situations you probably dont have 3-5seconds to make a shot. In addition, i have heard of people making impressive shots while hunting, and yet their performance on targets not reflecting this. It would be great to have such an instinct.

Any accuracy improvement i have attained however, has been through practice of form repitition and concentration.

Scuzz

Scuzz

Well said mate, I have seen people argue over this for hours, Target archers usually hold for 3-4 seconds but don't most of these guys shoot 40# (this may have changed since I was a member of PCA some 26 years back). Instinctive field or gap shooters vary from Snap to 2 seconds but snap being the most common.

I a self confessed snap shooter (regardless of poundage) but again from time to time I can hold a sec or 2 but off the target I can hold for at least 7-10 seconds. I personally believe Longbowsteve is right, you should be able to hold it for a time after making the sight window. But this doesn't fit everyone and there is no such thing as right or wrong just how much you can afford to pay your lawyer

Hazard

[little arrows]

I'll stick to my quick draw magraw style - no thinking required. You may laugh - if I actually take the time and heaven forbid actually anchor, my shot goes to custard. Each to their own I say, hold too long and thoughts and questions start whizzing around, and before you know it, you've missed completely. Well I do.

cheers
sue

[Fanto]

Hazard:


Scuzz

Well said mate, I have seen people argue over this for hours, Target archers usually hold for 3-4 seconds but don't most of these guys shoot 40# (this may have changed since I was a member of PCA some 26 years back).

Hazard[/quote]

some of the male olympic archers use 60# and one of the American women shoots 50#.

makes is even more impressive than it already is

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

May I suggest that people measure how long they actually hold at full draw rather than taking a guess. You may be suprised what it actually is.

Archers who shoot self bows and hold their bows at full draw for more than a few seconds are not doing their bows any favours.

Speaking for myself if I start heading into the range of holding the bow at full draw for more than a couple of seconds I will let down and start the whole process over again.

Hazard:


Scuzz

Well said mate, I have seen people argue over this for hours, Target archers usually hold for 3-4 seconds but don't most of these guys shoot 40# (this may have changed since I was a member of PCA some 26 years back).

Hazard

some of the male olympic archers use 60# and one of the American women shoots 50#.

makes is even more impressive than it already is

Some real numbers would be good along with a correlation between time at full draw compared to score attained.

From a Target viewpoint this is an interesting read for those who want to shoot better. http://www.desertskyarchers.com/uploads ... andout.pdf

Note:

Aiming is a brief moment lasting not more than 1-3 seconds. Aiming is done subconsciously as the archer
allows the pin to float around the center of the target.

[Rich]

Thank you for that link!

[longbowinfected]

I hold till I have a clear steady sight picture then release. I also get into a breathing cycle as coached by Ki sik Lee.
I am a gap shooter.
When shooting target we are allowed 4 minutes for 6 arrows and there are large timers/digital countdown clocks.
I spend about a minute to a minute and a half of that time so about 15 seconds per aimed shot with about half that time devoted to recovery breathing as I will do this 18 times at practice and 144 times in competition.
I actually spend considerable time focussing on follow through and holding my position/staring down my aiming point till well after the arrow has hit the target and this is critically important at longer distances.
I used to be the first back off the shooting line by a long way but not these days.
Like Steve I let down and restart if anything changes out of spec for my shot sequence. Learning to let down is hard but important.
During the World Masters in Sydney Steve, myself and a couple of longboers and bare bow recurvers shot PBs and the highest scores on the park versus compounders and sighted recurvers at 30 and 40 metres in the pouring rain and 50 kilometre an hour gusting winds.
I shot all my three arrow ends in 10-12 seconds and ignored the wind. I saved myself from having to stand too long out in those crappy conditions......bloke next to me was being blown off his feet and asked me to stay on the line as a wind break.....until I decided to help him out he only got to shoot and get points for one arrow whilst I stood next to him.....man he was jockey sized and that wind was bad.

Kevin

[longbowinfected]

All the target longbow archers I shoot with in NSW competition in open or masters shoot between 47 pound to 55 pound longbows. One guy in Veterans shoots under 40 pound because he has a badly damaged shoulder.
Guenter Licdht in Victoria shoots a 36/38 pound bow. He holds on target for as long as a compounder and his very good scores reflect this.

Kevin

[wishsong]

despite my ongoing battle with target panic ... I'll offer in my 2 cents .....

I tend to shoot pretty quickly and wish i didn't .

I think that many of us 'quicker' shooters have trouble shooting slower , or even briefly holding at full draw on an arrow that we are going to shoot are affected by varying degrees by target panic . I can hold and draw a 70 lb bow at full draw [ 28"] for 10 seconds repeatedly ... put an arrow on that bow in front of a target , stump or 3d and i don't have a hope of holding, my brain is screaming shoot shoot ........ much the same as my 50#'ers . although with work its getting better ... on my 34# ILF rig I am regaining full control of the shot ...slowly

I think that being in full control of the shot , with both a fast touchn' go release and the ability to shoot just as accurately whilst holding at full draw is a rare beastie indeed for us swing draw 'snap' shooters

I think its the other way round for the guys who tend to hold, build their shot at anchor ... they have the best of both worlds !

I think much of this comes from the idea that there is a 'hunting style' and a 'tournament' style .... something which I have never really agree with as good shooting is just that good shooting and are generally the result of a good repeatable shot sequence , based on good body mechanics . I think in ye oldy days of the 60's etc , many many archers shot FITA , Field and hunted ... looking at the USA the 60's were the pinnacle of Field archery involvement where people would shoot at 10 yards out to 80 yards, then go hunting critters when season rolled around ... to do well in such varied archery pursuits you needed good form . 4 arrows snap shot at a target 60 yards will never really yield the great results that the more controlled will get ... of course there are exceptions ... but footage of Hill shows him far more upright and less canted than most would believe ...

Today's 3d / hunting mentality has lessened the need and or desire for such good shooting I reckon ..... But it all very much depends what you want out of your archery ...

if you want a good quick shot at 20 yards to kill game and bowhunting is the primary interest then I think history will reflect the use of quick 'snap shooting' [ albeit actually hitting full draw ] has been a dependable way to harvest game for thousands of years and something I still practice regularly.

[wishsong]

Kev ... we could all learn a bit from Guenter !!!

[Chase N. Nocks]

despite my ongoing battle with target panic ... I'll offer in my 2 cents .....

I tend to shoot pretty quickly and wish i didn't .

I think that many of us 'quicker' shooters have trouble shooting slower , or even briefly holding at full draw on an arrow that we are going to shoot are affected by varying degrees by target panic . I can hold and draw a 70 lb bow at full draw [ 28"] for 10 seconds repeatedly ... put an arrow on that bow in front of a target , stump or 3d and i don't have a hope of holding, my brain is screaming shoot shoot ........ much the same as my 50#'ers . although with work its getting better ... on my 34# ILF rig I am regaining full control of the shot ...slowly

I think that being in full control of the shot , with both a fast touchn' go release and the ability to shoot just as accurately whilst holding at full draw is a rare beastie indeed for us swing draw 'snap' shooters

I think its the other way round for the guys who tend to hold, build their shot at anchor ... they have the best of both worlds !

I think much of this comes from the idea that there is a 'hunting style' and a 'tournament' style .... something which I have never really agree with as good shooting is just that good shooting and are generally the result of a good repeatable shot sequence , based on good body mechanics . I think in ye oldy days of the 60's etc , many many archers shot FITA , Field and hunted ... looking at the USA the 60's were the pinnacle of Field archery involvement where people would shoot at 10 yards out to 80 yards, then go hunting critters when season rolled around ... to do well in such varied archery pursuits you needed good form . 4 arrows snap shot at a target 60 yards will never really yield the great results that the more controlled will get ... of course there are exceptions ... but footage of Hill shows him far more upright and less canted than most would believe ...

Today's 3d / hunting mentality has lessened the need and or desire for such good shooting I reckon ..... But it all very much depends what you want out of your archery ...

if you want a good quick shot at 20 yards to kill game and bowhunting is the primary interest then I think history will reflect the use of quick 'snap shooting' [ albeit actually hitting full draw ] has been a dependable way to harvest game for thousands of years and something I still practice regularly.

Ben I agree with pretty much all you have said. Especially the bit I highlighted.

Incidentally the highest scores I have achieved with a long bow and a recurve were shot as an "instinctive" swing draw snap shooter.

But for me I think there is more accuracy to be extracted following Kevin's process mentioned above. At least I am hoping that the best shooting is yet to come.

Retraining yourself to slow down and gap is very difficult. I am looking forward to the Archery Alliance get together in January to see blokes like Kevin in action and have a good chin wag. Hopefully maybe you be there as well??

Cheers
Troy

[longbowinfected]

hey don't use me as a model. I have struggled for six years to only occasionally be close enough to watch them step on the podium.
If you ever get to see Ian Stokes or Steve Farrell in full swing take a few points from them and then watch Jo Vardon I think you will have all the best points.
Jo does not get many golds but is never out of the red.
Steve has a magnificent release under full power.
The others have wonderful anchors and stances and Ian has the best follow through I have ever seen.
They all are committed to a set shot sequence, if it is not right they start again. Letting down at full power after holding is a skill in itself. You cannot fix a deficiency whilst at full draw. Your body wants to work hard and your release is crisper with a full power draw than compared to a release with lower poundage bows but the trick is to settle on a draw poundage that you can handle for the number of arrows you are going to shoot each day. I see so many people overbow themselves with ruinous results. Comfortable and accurate wins over power and speed for mine.
More importantly these guys are real thinkers. They also make their own gear or modify custom gear.
I think they all shoot over 50 pound draw.
These three guys can shoot trad or target seemlessly and good form oozes from their pores. Darryl Reeks(?) is another to watch but I have only seen him in AA competition over a week at the Qld Nationals. It was a pleasure to see him and Steve go hammer and tong for a week....and enjoy each other as a friendly challenge.They were equals.

Kevin

[dartonian]

May I suggest that people measure how long they actually hold at full draw rather than taking a guess. You may be suprised what it actually is.

Archers who shoot self bows and hold their bows at full draw for more than a few seconds are not doing their bows any favours.

Speaking for myself if I start heading into the range of holding the bow at full draw for more than a couple of seconds I will let down and start the whole process over again.

I took Grahame's advice and while not scientifically measuring, I counted (1 thousand, 2 thousand etc) and found i was actually holding for only 2-3 seconds. Which suprised me as it feels so much longer than that. I do feel that the lighter bow allows for a more comfortable hold and the shot feels better as a result.

It was interesting reading how much of a diverse mob we are when it comes to shooting style.

I just wish I was discplined enough to let down if all does not feel right as I know I am prone to just release any way, regardless of the feel of the shot... Always something to work on!!!

Cheers & thanks for the interesting comments,
Paul

[GrahameA]

Good to hear you have checked it out. Only a couple of seconds ..... and yet it feels like minutes. Things can be deceptive. All Good

[scuzz]

I have spoken to a few guys about the time i hold (or used to when i was in form) at full draw. But the main people that seem concerned are


1- Experienced men concerned about my shoulders because of the weight i pull

2-bowyers, who are shooting selfbows and im trying to imply, without glass. Apparently holding a selfbow at full draw for too long can assist with string-follow or other problems relative to selfbows.

Im certainly interested in point No.2
Has anyone heard or experienced such?

Scuzz

[longbowinfected]

if you hold with a selfbow it may happen that the wood fibres "relax" so you do not release with full power.
Certainly many say to unbrace your selfbow if you are not going to use it for a bit.
As to the extent of harm or wear on the bow that would vary greatly depending upon the species used. style of bow and dimensions.

Guys who make selfbows like Hamish and Greybeard might shed a bit of light here as my comments relate only to physical characteristics of timber. I do not yet make bows.

Timber in bows and in arrows can get out of condition. With arrows you re burnish them.

Kevin

[Mick Smith]

I've struggled with target panic for many years and when I'm shooting poorly, I'm not even reaching anything like a full draw. On the rare days that I'm shooting well, I will only hold full draw for, what seems to be a millisecond, before releasing.

It's interesting to note that Olympic archers don't hold their draw for any length of time either. From what I've seen (and I could be wrong), they use 'clickers' which make a noise at a predetermined draw length. The Olympic archers release immediately when they hear their clicker going off. They have a slightly different style to most of us trad archers though. They maintain a very slow draw as their draw length approaches their predetermined clicker release point. They hold their sights on the target during this final process.

In order to combat my target panic, I have evolved a system whereby I have trained myself not to shoot until I can feel the back edge of my arrow point touching my index finger of my bow hand. In effect, it works in much the same way as a 'clicker'. It means my arrows must be trimmed to exact length to make this happen.

When I'm shooting at my best, I'm shooting in a fully automatic mode. I'm totally focussed on the exact centre of the target and the rest happens all by itself.

[longbowinfected]

most better performing competitive freestyle recurvers and compounders shooting target in AA and WA take the greater part of 4 minutes to shoot 6 arrows.

Kevin