Beginner concerns

[Buranurra]

Hi fellas,

I have been reading a lot on this forum and other info that I can find on the net, plus the book Traditional Archery by Sam Fadala.
I want to go bowhunting but also want to shoot 3D targets with my wife and 4.5 year old daughter. I used to shoot a heavy hunting compound around 25 years ago but can't recall the weights, but would say I was stronger then. That being said I am not a "weak" individual now. I am 176cm tall of medium build.

Now, I have always been of the mind that one should invest in the best tool that they can afford. I have subsequently ordered bows for the family but now having caught up with a friend who shoots compound bows I am a little worried (quite concerned) that the bows are too heavy??

Me -

My estimated draw length is around 27.5 (basically measured from middle finger to middle finger and divided by 2.5)

I have ordered a Hunters Niche - Predator Custom takedown recurve 60" 43# @ 28

I have also ordered fletched arrows that I will need to cut to the correct length.

Carbon Express Heritage 250 (.375" spine)

Wife -

Her estimated draw length is around 26 (basically measured from middle finger to middle finger and divided by 2.5)

I have ordered her Fred Bear Kodiak Magnum 50th Anniversary Recurve Bow 52" 35# @28

I have also ordered fletched arrows that I will need to cut to the correct length.

Traditional only carbon 600 spine.

Daughter -

3 Rivers Little squirt longbow
Bacote Riser
Birdseye Maple Limbs
Horn Tip Overlays
AMO of 34"
10 to 12 Pounds
16" Draw

Anyway that is the guts right now, I am feeling a bit sick in the guts after my conversation with my mate that I have blown a heap of $$ and it may be unsuitable?

Any thoughts and comments will be appreciated.

Cheers

[bigbob]

Very hard to tell, without any reference to more details, but as a general rule, ability draw wise with trad bows at least for a while, seems to be a little lower poundage due to having no mechanical advantage aiding the draw. However to me at least, the poundages you quote seem fairly reasonable and something that you all should work into.

[Buranurra]

Thanks Bigbob!

I kinda originally thought the draw weights were reasonable but was concerned when my mate came back saying he had spoken with an archery instructor who have said they would not be suitable at all.

Anyway, thanks for your response I feel less stressed about the purchases.

[kerry]

Firstly, welcome to ozbow . My thoughts for what their worth, wiith your bow if you find it a bit heavy you could order some lower poundage limbs, keep your 43lb. limbs i'm sure you'll work up to them .As for your arrows i thought they could be a bit stiff but i'm sure theres more guys on here that are better to advise on the carbons[ be sure to wear a mask when you cut them].With your wifes bow as its a one piece ?,she may have to do some sort of exercise to build up the necessary muscles' thats assuming she needs to. cheers Kerry

[Buranurra]

Hi Kerry

Thanks for welcome and reply.

THe bow for the Mrs, is one piece, but she is pretty stong - probably from the amount of carrying around she has done with our daughter.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Buranurra,

Welcome to Ozbow. From the information you have given I don't think you will have too many problems with the draw weights you have chosen. If you are going to shoot your bows target style (straight up and down) you may reach the draw lengths you have mentioned but most likely you will be a little shorter. If you shoot with your bows canted and without your bow arms locked out straight I would think your draw lengths will no doubt be shorter than you have guessed.

With your arras I wouldn't have a clue sorry as I like wood arras.

All the best with your shooting and please keep us up to date with proceedings - when you get your bows etc. Oh, and we like photos.

Jeff

[Buranurra]

Thanks very much Jeff,

Am pretty sure I will be going cantered as you say, so no doubt the lesser draw length will equate to lesser poundage.

I will do some photos when the bows arrive for sure. I have enjoyed viewing the photos in this site thus far and hope to contribute. I am defo gunna explore making wooden arrows in the near futute.

Cheers

Jase

[Stickbow Hunter]

Hey Jase, if you put where abouts you come from in your profile there maybe someone near that can give you some hands on help with getting your gear set up.

Jeff

[Buranurra]

Hey Jase, if you put where abouts you come from in your profile there maybe someone near that can give you some hands on help with getting your gear set up.

Jeff

Good plan - updated now,

Cheers

Jase

[Gringa Bows]

yeah those bows will be ok IMO,couple of months if you shoot them regularly and you build up,you'll be wanting to go to heavier bows Welcome to Ozbow mate.

[Buranurra]

yeah those bows will be ok IMO,couple of months if you shoot them regularly and you build up,you'll be wanting to go to heavier bows Welcome to Ozbow mate.

THanks mate,

Yeah, the longer term goal for me will be to work up to heavier limbs and keep the 43#s for small game.

[GrahameA]

Morning.

Anyway that is the guts right now, I am feeling a bit sick in the guts after my conversation with my mate that I have blown a heap of $$ and it may be unsuitable?

IMHO - all will be good.

If you are heading down the 3DAAA road you are not going out to shoot 90 arrows in an afternoon - which could be the case if you were heading down the target road.

[Fanto]

I just got back into it after a long absence and went straight into a 55lb recurve, but I am rather ehem solid.

43 is not a hard draw for an average adult male.

however your arrows are quite stiff. I shoot 500 spine with 235gr at the point and at 29" cut carbon length and they are just right.

regards
fanto

[Buranurra]

Morning.

Anyway that is the guts right now, I am feeling a bit sick in the guts after my conversation with my mate that I have blown a heap of $$ and it may be unsuitable?

IMHO - all will be good.

If you are heading down the 3DAAA road you are not going out to shoot 90 arrows in an afternoon - which could be the case if you were heading down the target road.

Hi Grahame,

That's great news , many thanks!

I just got back into it after a long absence and went straight into a 55lb recurve, but I am rather ehem solid.

43 is not a hard draw for an average adult male.

however your arrows are quite stiff. I shoot 500 spine with 235gr at the point and at 29" cut carbon length and they are just right.

regards
fanto

Hi Fanto,

Thanks for the response, looks like I need to find out more about arrows - fast

With mine (heritage) they come in the following sizes. Rather ignorantly, I chose 250 assuming that the 43# was low and would need the thinner arrow?

Carbon Express Heritage® Carbon Shafting Specifics

Model (Spine) Point GPI Length Insert Nock Point Collar Nock
75 (.611") 9/32" 8.8 30 ¼" 11gr TCX 2 -- --
90 (.530") 9/32" 9.4 30 ¼" 11gr TCX 2 B B
150 (.487") 5/16" 10 32 ¾" 11gr TCX C C
250 (.373") 5/16" 11 32 ¾" 11gr TCX D D
350 (.320") 5/16" 12 32 ¾" 11gr TCX -- --
Straightness ±.005" Weight ±2gr

What would have been a more suitable choice?

With the arrows for my wife. the Tradition Only 600 was recommended for her by 3 Rivers

Traditional Only Carbon Shafting Specifics

SpinePoint GPI Length Insert Nock Point Collar Nock Collar
600 5/16" 7.0 30 ¾" 11gr H Nock A A
500 5/16" 8.0 31 ½" 14gr Super Nock B B
400 5/16" 9.1 32" 14gr Super Nock C C
340 5/16" 10.0 32 ½" 14gr Super Nock D D
300 5/16" 10.1 33" 14gr Super Nock D D

Straightness ±.003" Weight ±2gr

Do you think the Trad only would be more suited to me?

Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Jase

[bigbob]

Check out jcm on here, an aussie guy who could set you straight re right arrows etc. Great guy to deal with too.

[Rich]

The Heritage 250's will be stiff for your setup at 43. The 600's may suit your setup better with 100gn or 125gn piles.
You can still use the Heritage arrows if you later go up to 60lb limbs using 190gn piles.
I used Stu Millers Dynamic Spine Calculator to work this out. Be warned, I'm still a newbie with it though so best to crunch the numbers yourself.

I think the Heritage 90's with 125gn points would be more suitable for 43 and your draw.

Cheers,

Rich

[Fanto]

Jase,

I use stu's dynamic spine calculator.

I just ran your arrows and bow. it works out a more accurate dynamic spine for your bow and arrows. If you use fastflight string , the dynamic spine requirement of your bow is 52lb.

if you leave those arrows at 30 inches, and run 225gr at the tip (either a 100gr brass insert, or a regular insert with screw in weight on the back of it) then it gets the dynamic spine of the arrows down to 52 lbs as well, therefore perfectly matched. These arrows would weigh 13.7 grains per pound which put them into the very heavy hunting arrow category. however, if you ran a more normal 125gr tip on a 29inch arrow, then your arrow spine looks more like 85.6lb!!!

regarding your trad only 600 spines - if you cut them to 29in (about right for a 27.5-28 draw if youre going to use a broadhead some day) then they would need about a 150gr point to suit your bow. They would be just over 10 grains per pound which is a widely used hunting weight for arras.
they will naturally be well overspined for the 35lb Kodiak.

I never sell anything so I would keep the CE 250s at 30in with big nasty broadheads for Pigs, use the trad 600s on both bows, tune them with tip weights to suit both bows.


I am new to instinctive shooting but I have read and heard experienced shooters advise to avoid incorrectly spined arras. This is because your brain will compensate for the overspine arrow hitting left (for a RH) and when you use a correctly spined arrow youll miss to the right, start to compensate, use an overspined arrow, miss left again, and then your brain will explode from the confusion...

cheers

[danceswithdingoes]

It wont take long to get used to those weights, you could always order lighter limbs for the predator (which may make a nice upgrade for the wife) your wife could get used to the draw weight with a cheap target recurve (<$200) Therabands make good muscle development tools and are easily carried. I dont like to encourage carbons for beginners as they are not used to checking the shaft for damage and can be difficult to tune. Easton Legacy Alloys are inexpensive look great and the 1916's would suit your draw weight, just experiment with length and point weight. Your wife would find Easton Blue or Jazz alloys affordable and practical, 1816's would be a durable and inexpensive shaft 9again experiment with length and point weight.)

[Buranurra]

thanks for all the info fellas!

Cheers

Jase

[excelpoint]

Congrats on your new bows. Looks like lots of fun to come for you and the family.

As for the 250's on your setup I agree with others in that they will be way to stiff. I only shoot Heritage shafts and love them, for your setup the 90's would be much better. I shoot 150's out of my stuff from 50#-58# and at 50# they still like 250gr up front.

Stu Millers calculator is a good tool but I have found the Heritage shafts always seem to shoot a bit stiffer then what they are marked for.

If you wanted to go with 150's which use the standard size insert as apposed to the 90's, keep them long and load up the front with a 50-100gr brass insert and heavy point. When you go up in weight on your bow you will be able to use the same shafts and still have the length allowing you to trim them back a bit to get them to tune right for the heavier limbs.

If you want to make up a couple stump shooting arrows for roving around shooting clumps of grass etc, use a 2-3" sleeve of a 2216 alloy shaft over the top of the Heritage shaft at the tip. This will save your arrows when you end up hitting something harder then what you expected

[Buranurra]

Congrats on your new bows. Looks like lots of fun to come for you and the family.

As for the 250's on your setup I agree with others in that they will be way to stiff. I only shoot Heritage shafts and love them, for your setup the 90's would be much better. I shoot 150's out of my stuff from 50#-58# and at 50# they still like 250gr up front.

Stu Millers calculator is a good tool but I have found the Heritage shafts always seem to shoot a bit stiffer then what they are marked for.

If you wanted to go with 150's which use the standard size insert as apposed to the 90's, keep them long and load up the front with a 50-100gr brass insert and heavy point. When you go up in weight on your bow you will be able to use the same shafts and still have the length allowing you to trim them back a bit to get them to tune right for the heavier limbs.

If you want to make up a couple stump shooting arrows for roving around shooting clumps of grass etc, use a 2-3" sleeve of a 2216 alloy shaft over the top of the Heritage shaft at the tip. This will save your arrows when you end up hitting something harder then what you expected

THanks Mate,

I will probably cut 6 of the 600s to my size for my size and 6 for my wife and use 125g points (?)

I have some heritage 150s coming as well and some 3grain per inch weight tubes that I can use afterwards (what size point do you recommend)

I have some collars that I ordered for the 250s for stump shooting - dunno if they will fit the 150s???

I will put the 250s in the cupboard for when I get heavier limbs or flog them off.


Cheers

Jase

[excelpoint]

At the moment I'm shooting 150's cut to 27.5" with 100gr inserts and 175gr head. I draw 26.75". This is out of my 53#@26.75" Sky/Hoyt recurve combo.

[Buranurra]

While visiting my folks today, I found a Samick Sab 64" 20# on piece recurve that was my sisters so I snaffled it! It is in great nick but has no string.

I acknowledge that the arra spine will greatly vary depending on the draw and weight of the bow, having said that I've got a couple of questions...

I was thinking to let my wife use this and I use the (her) 35# Bear while I wait for the predator which will be about 4+ weeks away.

1. Will I be able to use the Samick bow as a template to ascertain my actual draw length?
2. If the above is okay, will I then be able to use this bow to ascertain my correct hunting arrow length, assuming I add 1' to 2" from the front of the bow?
3. Will "my" draw length and arrow length be relatively the same despite which recurve bow I use?

My apologies for the asking beginners questions such these.

Cheers

Jase

[Buranurra]

At the moment I'm shooting 150's cut to 27.5" with 100gr inserts and 175gr head. I draw 26.75". This is out of my 53#@26.75" Sky/Hoyt recurve combo.

thanks mate,

this post crossed over from my last. Hopefully I can ascertain my actual draw and arrow length soon to better determine my requirements.

Cheers

Jase

[excelpoint]

Yes you can use the Samick to find out your draw length but arrow length is usually decided by how they tune to your bow. Its dependent on point weight, shaft length, bow weight, brace height, how the shelf is cut i.e past centre, to centre etc etc.

The other way is to get a shaft that is in the right spine range, decide on the length you want and then use point weight to get the tune right. The downside of this is if you get it wrong you may not be able to go down in point weight enough.

I usually start with a shaft in the right spine (150's for me) decide on what point weight (including insert) which is normally dictated by the broadheads I like, then cut the shaft a couple inches longer. I will then bareshaft tune cutting the shaft down 1/4" at a time till I'm close then 1/8" till spot on.

I have found with carbon shafts they are effected alot more by shaft length then point weight. I can usually bareshaft well with 125gr through to 200gr with only minor impact point change. Although this is helped a bit shooting recurves or Longbows with shelves cut past centre.

[Buranurra]

Yes you can use the Samick to find out your draw length but arrow length is usually decided by how they tune to your bow. Its dependent on point weight, shaft length, bow weight, brace height, how the shelf is cut i.e past centre, to centre etc etc.

The other way is to get a shaft that is in the right spine range, decide on the length you want and then use point weight to get the tune right. The downside of this is if you get it wrong you may not be able to go down in point weight enough.

I usually start with a shaft in the right spine (150's for me) decide on what point weight (including insert) which is normally dictated by the broadheads I like, then cut the shaft a couple inches longer. I will then bareshaft tune cutting the shaft down 1/4" at a time till I'm close then 1/8" till spot on.

I have found with carbon shafts they are effected alot more by shaft length then point weight. I can usually bareshaft well with 125gr through to 200gr with only minor impact point change. Although this is helped a bit shooting recurves or Longbows with shelves cut past centre.

Thanks very much for this thorough and helpful advice!

Cheers

Jase