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Cock feather orientation
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:48 pm
by matt61
Bought a Black widow PCHX of Gundy a while ago now,any way the other day I finally bothered to read the owners manual (that man thing,when all else fails try reading the instructions
).Read in it about setting my arrows
cock feather at the 12 o'clock position.I have found that I have been able to lower my nocking point by about 6-8mm
and it's amazing how much better the arrows flie over 20 meters.
Matt
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:17 pm
by piggy
Matt I found out of one of my Widows I got best results with cock feather in go figure.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:49 pm
by daniel boon
Cock feather in on all my bows, seems to work for me.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:13 pm
by Dennis La Varenne
I have always been able to shoot my longbows, both Howard Hill and selfbow with the cock feather in any orientation without issue, so long as it IS a feather.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:42 pm
by Sparra
Can someone explain why it would make a difference where the cock feather is??? I was always under the impression it was soley to show the arrow orientation for nocking so therefore it would be personal preference...
Cheers...Sparra
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:01 pm
by Dennis La Varenne
Sparra,
See my reply directly above yours.
From my own trialling and testing, I believe that there is a lot mythology involved here. I tested it this way many, many years ago. The distance to the butt was only 15m in my back yard, but the chance of seeing erratic flight from poorly stabilised arrows was reasonably high.
Firstly, I shot several groups with the cock feather out away from the bow and noted the grouping both for strike point and group size.
Next, I shot the same number of groups with the cock feather against the bow noting the group position and size again.
Lastly, I shot the same number of groups again but blind to which way the cock feather lay on the bow by nocking the arrow without looking. At the time, my nocks did not have indicators because I had scraped them all off.
All groups shot to the same impact point and the same average group size.
I have never 'bare-shafted' any arrows in my life and have never seen the need to because I have never had a case of poor arrow flight unless I deliberately shot a badly underspined arrow. I have never had a problem with with poor arrow flight even from heavily overspined arrows up to 15 lbs over spine.
Why the issue of cock-feather out ever came to be of such importance is beyond my understanding.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:41 pm
by Stickbow Hunter
Sparra wrote:I was always under the impression it was soley to show the arrow orientation for nocking so therefore it would be personal preference...
Dennis La Varénne wrote:Why the issue of cock-feather out ever came to be of such importance is beyond my understanding.
To me the importance of the cock feather facing out was because of the grain orientation of wooden arrows. It was important for both safety and that of getting uniform spine readings. See the following.
Jeff
RIFT and REED: A fletcher’s term referring to the two different views of the lay of the growth rings or grain in an arrow shaft.
The RIFT view refers to the view which shows a series of ‘V’s pointing to one end of the arrow shaft and usually in the reverse direction on the side 180º opposite. The REED view refers to the ‘edge’ grain showing on both sides at 90º to the rift grain, and is usually the stiffest side of the shaft where spine stiffness readings are taken and which is laid against the bow for shooting.
- Rift-and-Reed.jpg (21.99 KiB) Viewed 3856 times
Sometimes the stiffest spine readings do not occur across the reed, but it is preferable always to align the arrow as above for the safety reasons discussed below.
The rift should always point forwards on the upper side of the arrow and rearwards on the underside. When viewed on a spine tester, the rift should point to the left for a right-handed (dextrous) shooter, and for a left-handed (sinistrous) shooter, to the right. This is because the growth rings represent lines of possible sheer fracture and breakage and consequent penetrating injury from the rear portion of the shaft if it is pushed under the forward portion by the bowstring and down into the bowarm/hand.
If correctly aligned, the rear section will ride up over the forward section and help prevent or minimise injury.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:06 pm
by GrahameA
Afternoon.
You may have seen this before.
Sparra wrote:Can someone explain why it would make a difference where the cock feather is??? I was always under the impression it was soley to show the arrow orientation for nocking so therefore it would be personal preference...
As long as the fletches do not collide with the bow then most problems have been overcome.
There is more clearance between the bow and the fletch with Cock feather out - not much but there is more. However there may be less between the arrow rest and the fletch. And when people start changing the amplitude of the oscillation, the rate of the oscillation and position of the nocking point the clearance is not always available.
This an arrow where the spine is not a match for the arrow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Obmz8b ... ature=plcp It is a overspined.
Watch this arrow hit the bow. That is not what you want. (Both spine and nocking point issues).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSc6BRMR ... playnext=1
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:42 pm
by Bill
Taking in consideration the correct spine along with the grain direction/orientation when I make up my arrows, I like to use four fletches on most of them. The colours of the fletches can all be all the same or two by two, or all four can be different. (most times I use the fletch colour pattern to identify the point on the arrow, all four a broadhead, two by two a blunt) By using the four fletch method, there's no need to look away from my intended target to ensure that I'm correctly nocking my arrow. easy.
ok just my easy view.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:14 pm
by Stickbow Hunter
Bill wrote:By using the four fletch method, there's no need to look away from my intended target to ensure that I'm correctly nocking my arrow. easy. ok just my easy view.
Actually this doesn't in fact ensure you nock your arrows correctly Bill as there is only one way to correctly nock an arrow (see my previous post), not two. It could be said you have a fifty fifty chance of getting it right.
I find using index nocks is the best way to ensure I nock my arrows correctly. I handle my arrows by the nock and I can feel the index with my thumb and have the arrow rotated to the correct position by the time I am about to place the nock on the string.
Jeff
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:37 pm
by Bill
This is how I fletch my arrows, trying to ensure the the growth lines are to the side of the shaft making for a stiffer spine. I'm not a 100% sure if this is correct but it works for me.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:43 pm
by Stickbow Hunter
You have the grain orientation correct Bill but the rift (see diagram above) should always point forwards on the upper side of the arrow and rearwards on the underside. This is why there is only one correct way to nock your arrow.
Jeff
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:46 pm
by matt61
The Idea in the Black Widow book is that with the cock feather at twelve o'clock the quill of the hen feather set at the four o'clock position upon release will pass through the inside corner of the shelf without touching either the riser or the rest.You can even use a two peice rest that makes the gap in the corner of the shelf even bigger for better clearance for the quill.There is a very easy test to show what effect the quill is having and that is to get an arrow that is fletched with vanes and shoot it out of your trad bow over the shelf and see what it does and then get rid of the vane on the arrow at the five o'clock position and shoot it again,it will fly great because nothing but the shaft is touching the rest
as the arrow passes over it.With the vane on,the arrow will bounce as the vane hits the shelf upon release which is what the quill causes hitting the shelf, but to a far lesser degree.
Matt
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:52 am
by GrahameA
Hi Matt.
matt61 wrote:... There is a very easy test to show what effect the quill is having and that is to get an arrow that is fletched with vanes and shoot it out of your trad bow over the shelf and see what it does ....
Hmm.. I would strongly suggest that if people want to find out what is happening with their Bow/Arrow Combination they shoot a few arrows and film it. You can use a high speed camera or strobe them.
Addenda - Jim Park has been awarded his doctorate and the research was all about what happens with bows and arrows during launch etc. With any sort of luck he will write a book on it and it will be published in a couple of years.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:02 pm
by Dennis La Varenne
To all,
In my earlier reply, I did not consider including the issue of the grain orientation of the arrow shaft because I made the presumption that EVERYBODY knew that. Apparently a lot of people do not even these days.
The reason for having the grain orientation correct is a safety issue in the case that a shaft shears under the thrusting force of the bow upon loose. This can and does happen especially with under-spined arrows, but rarely with on or over-spined arrows unless those arrows already have a lengthways fracture. This is my own experience of course
But, even so, I have never experienced any kind of problem with arrow flight solely from the orientation of the cock feather alone.
I still find it amazing that so many people still seem to have so much trouble when I have far more trouble trying to induce bad arrow flight.
Re: Cock feather orientation
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:07 am
by GrahameA
Morning
Further to Comment re Jim. If people are seriously interested in what happens here is an example of the work . Read the abstract then decide if you want to go further.
http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread ... -technique