To cant, or not to cant

[Brumbies Country]

My early shooting 7 or so years ago was with a barebow recurve with an elevated rest with an Archery Australia club. You were advised to straighten it if you shot with the bow anyway deviating from the vertical. Later on I shot longbows off the shelf the same way and when shooting self-bows stayed that way. Mostly the handles of the latter were relatively slender. I read Byron Fergusons book and tried to take on his recommendations except for canting the bow. I'd read somewhere that in canting you were adding another variable.

Mt latest self-bow is relatively wider in the handle and has no shelf. A couple of weeks ago I picked up Byron's book again. I thought I'll just try this canting thing. To my surprise it worked for me quite quickly. I tried it initially on short targets out to 20m and instead of a bit of round the handle deviation to the left, I found long as I concentrated on the shot that with canting I was quicky finding the centre line vertically. I'm now canting a fair bit further away from the target and it feels OK. Another lesson that you need to try things before dismissing them to never to be re-visited bin of lost suggestions.

Just wondered what the general opinion is re the advantages and disadvantages of canting?

[wishsong]

Close up I don't think it matters much at all , but as the targets go further out my bow needs to straighten up a bit .

[longbowinfected]

my arrows are pretty well tuned and I do not feel the need to cant......except in cross winds I cant the bow a couple of degrees into light winds and a bit more into stiffer crosswinds instead of aiming off. I do not feel the need to cant when hunting as I only shoot at very short ranges and executing the shot the same way every time works for me.
Good to try things though because the first time you do may be at a time when your at a point in your development where you are not ready. For those who cant and do well good on you. Do what feels comfortable and works for you.

Kevin

[Stickbow Hunter]

I'm now canting a fair bit further away from the target and it feels OK.

What do you mean by this comment Simon? Do you aim off to the side of the target or do you mean you simply cant the bow more?

I can't my bow quite a lot which allows me a big sight window which is very helpful when you shoot instinctively IMO. I also like it it because it doesn't matter whether your standing and shooting normally or are sitting down and having to hold the bow near horizontal as it makes little difference. I don't like holding my bow vertical at all.

I grip my longbows firmly and I find when I close my fist it tends to automatically cant the bow.

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Morning Simon

I'd read somewhere that in canting you were adding another variable.

You are, plus.

IMHO If you want to shoot Target at longer distance then canting the bow is not a good choice. Even at shorter distance it is not the best choice. However, shooting a number of arrows at a constant distance enables you to "walk" the arrows onto the target.

The short answer is read Horace Ford. If you want the longer answer let me know.

[bigbob]

Whether its technically correct or even desirable, I endorse your comments Jeff. For me it feels natural and the bow just finds its own angle during the shot process.For the record I shoot wheelie [gasp] bows perfectly upright.

[twisted limb]

G'day Simon, I shoot my recurve vertical because it seems to be easier to get good alinment that way which is very important when shooting the curves. But for me longbows and selfbows are canted it's just how they naturaly come to hand.
As Jeff said canting a longbow opens your sight window where the recurve has the sight window cut out of the riser.
One thing that I have found that makes a big difference to my accuracy when setting up my longbow shot is when you CANT your BOW you must remember to CANT your HEAD to get your eye over the arrow.
John

[Brumbies Country]

I'm now canting a fair bit further away from the target and it feels OK.

What do you mean by this comment Simon? Do you aim off to the side of the target or do you mean you simply cant the bow more?

Jeff

I realise now Jeff that what I said was a bit confusing. What I meant was that I started canting with the self bow only for close shots and then found that canting the same bow a bit on longer shots, albeit not canted as much, it also seemed OK. Just to clarify, at all distances I tried to shoot the point of the arrowin line with the centre of whatever target it was.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

The short answer is read Horace Ford. If you want the longer answer let me know.

Afternoon Grahame

I actually do have Horace Ford alongside the bed, well his book anyway . A couple of years ago I shot an English longbow quite alot and I shot it upright all the time and if I did the right thing, it did the right thing.

I've rejoined Tuggers AA to give myself some close scrutiny shooting on the line. Shot alot of arrows at 40m with a recurve with an elevated rest reverting back to upright today. First end were a bit to the right and perhaps I canted a little that end but after that I was generally happy with the line shooting upright.

Guess the point I was making was that I could see merit in canting a bow and I've seen some people who cant all the time shoot very well. It has it's place in hunting in scub and some bush surround field shots.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

G'day Simon, I shoot my recurve vertical because it seems to be easier to get good alinment that way which is very important when shooting the curves. But for me longbows and selfbows are canted it's just how they naturaly come to hand.
As Jeff said canting a longbow opens your sight window where the recurve has the sight window cut out of the riser.
One thing that I have found that makes a big difference to my accuracy when setting up my longbow shot is when you CANT your BOW you must remember to CANT your HEAD to get your eye over the arrow.
John

Thanks John

I think it was watching how well you shoot your self-bows that made me think about giving canting a go for field shooting and only with a self-bow. In my reply to Grahame I mentioned that I reverted back to shooting a recurve upright at 40m today and it seem to work. So your point re the recurve is well taken

That's a very good point re canting the head and to be honest I don't know. I'll have a few shots as soon as this flamin' wind drops and see where my head is. Hope Wagga went well today.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon

I actually do have Horace Ford alongside the bed, well his book anyway . A couple of years ago I shot an English longbow quite alot and I shot it upright all the time and if I did the right thing, it did the right thing.

It is good to see that you have such exciting bedside read. I am packing a copy on my laptop so I can do a re-read in a week or so. After how poorly I shot on the weekend I need an injection of such - my new year resolution is to be serious about archery and to undertake regular, serious, methodical practice. That will probably last for two or three days.

Guess the point I was making was that I could see merit in canting a bow and I've seen some people who cant all the time shoot very well. It has it's place in hunting in scub and some bush surround field shots.

My view is people can shoot any way they "wish", it is all a collection "swings and roundabouts" what you gain in one place you lose in another. Horace was extremely one-eyed about things however, it never hurts to be aware of the inherent "issues". I need to do a couple of sketches and then scan them. Will send you a reply tomorrow.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Simon

I actually do have Horace Ford alongside the bed, well his book anyway . A couple of years ago I shot an English longbow quite alot and I shot it upright all the time and if I did the right thing, it did the right thing.

It is good to see that you have such exciting bedside read. I am packing a copy on my laptop so I can do a re-read in a week or so. After how poorly I shot on the weekend I need an injection of such - my new year resolution is to be serious about archery and to undertake regular, serious, methodical practice. That will probably last for two or three days.

[.

Good morning Grahame


Re the regular methodical practice, you and me both. I love field archery but my technique pinging away in the bush has become woeful. I've decided serious with the recurve, fun withe self-bow. I found recurve shooting on the line last couple of weekends that I had people looking over my shoulder and I became happy at the way I grouped at 40m. I've set myself a goal: Veteran mens bare bow target at the AA Nationals March. May or may not happen. Just got myself a new horse. Endurance is the aim but also a bit of horseback archery. A chap needs continuing goals in life!

Simon

[alaninoz]

I've set myself a goal: Veteran mens bare bow target at the AA Nationals March. May or may not happen. Just got myself a new horse. Endurance is the aim but also a bit of horseback archery. A chap needs continuing goals in life!

Simon

Damn Simon, don't you ever slow down? Hasn't anyone told you you're getting old?

More power to your arm!

[Brumbies Country]

I've set myself a goal: Veteran mens bare bow target at the AA Nationals March. May or may not happen. Just got myself a new horse. Endurance is the aim but also a bit of horseback archery. A chap needs continuing goals in life!

Simon

Damn Simon, don't you ever slow down? Hasn't anyone told you you're getting old?

More power to your arm!

Alan, indeed they have but I'm working on the principle that if you don't have time to stop and think then you don't take the age bit on board. That of course assumes that it is only a state of mind and ignores the fact that the knees are protesting about 60 odd years of serious activity and the shoulders tell you after a days archery that you might be better playing bowls. Nothing wrong with the game played by Francis Drake, but I'm saving that for later. The answer hopefully lies with slower horses, lighter bows-with age supposedly comes wisdom. There's gotta be some advantages.

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon

My early shooting 7 or so years ago was with a barebow recurve with an elevated rest with an Archery Australia club. You were advised to straighten it if you shot with the bow anyway deviating from the vertical. Later on I shot longbows off the shelf the same way and when shooting self-bows stayed that way. ... I'd read somewhere that in canting you were adding another variable.

Big assumption - the archer is accurate and can hit the target

Case 1.

You hold the bow vertically. A perfectly matched arrow will hit the point that it is being aimed at. A "stiff" arrow will impact to left of the point being aimed at. (and a soft arrow will go the other way)

You can learn how much to aim off so that you hit in the spot being aimed at - it is a simple lateral adjustment and you only need to make a single adjustment

simon1.jpg (26.73 KiB) Viewed 7948 times

Case 2.
So now you cant the bow.

The perfectly matched arrow still hits the spot you want. As you cant the bow the stiff arrow now still shoots to the left but not as much and now it also hits higher. As you cant the bow more the less it will hit to the left and the more it will it higher. You, the archer, now have two corrections to make Lateral and Vertical Plus if the angle of the cant is not constant then the amount of lateral and vertical offset will vary. You will inherently shoot a larger group.

simon2.jpg (28.37 KiB) Viewed 7948 times

You are just making it harder on yourself to shoot a constant small group. Thus the constant recommendation to keep the bow vertical.

Add to this having read Horace's book you have moved to an under the chin anchor. Canting the bow and using an under the chin anchor do not go well with each other.

Plus if you stand vertical and cant what is that doing to the bow string, is it adding Roll (rotational) torque so that your release is not as good as it would be if there was no Roll (rotational) torque?

[Brumbies Country]

Good Afternoon Grahame

I appreciate what you are saying. Re target shooting (as against field and hunting) you and Horace are spot on. At 70 m the margin of error is very much smaller and I'd venture to say that the vast majority of people at that distance shooting target would be shooting with an intentionally upright bow. At lunchtime today I went and shot arrows on a 120cm face at 50 and 60 m with a barebow recurve. Margins for error are small. I had a couple of ends at 70m just to establish an aiming point, and margins are tighter again. All this with an upright bow.

In contrast I know people who shoot 3D targets with a significant cant and score very well. I'd venture to say that the maximum 3D target at Wisemans was 30 m and people with a cant were scoring very well indeed. Similarly hunting shots which in many circumstances might ethically be limited to a maximum of 30m, given the difficulties of upright bow alignment in scrub and bush, some people do very well with a significant cant. My original comment related to shooting a self-bow round the handle with a cant at relatively short distances and I found that with a bit of practice it worked OK for me. Alot of this has to do with my fascination for experimentation-it doesn't always stand me in good stead but you get to experience alot of interesting things.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon

I appreciate what you are saying. Re target shooting (as against field and hunting) you and Horace are spot on.

Horace is the person who knew what he was doing - I just read his book. No to many brains req'd on my part.

In contrast I know people who shoot 3D targets with a significant cant and score very well. I'd venture to say that the maximum 3D target at Wisemans was 30 m and people with a cant were scoring very well indeed. Similarly hunting shots which in many circumstances might ethically be limited to a maximum of 30m, given the difficulties of upright bow alignment in scrub and bush, some people do very well with a significant cant. My original comment related to shooting a self-bow round the handle with a cant at relatively short distances and I found that with a bit of practice it worked OK for me.

Yes. I have tried to make it clear that these comments only apply to target. The principles and effects are true for all forms - howeverin this case we are restricting the comments to target.

...some people do very well with a significant cant.

If you consider the geometry and what is happening there is a case for a significant cant being a better choice - horizontal could have a lot in its favour.

Alot of this has to do with my fascination for experimentation-it doesn't always stand me in good stead but you get to experience alot of interesting things.

You and I both. I always seem to be experimenting with things - and then paying the penalty for a bad choice. I work on the basis that eventually that the combination of the knowledge of others plus my own learning experiences should mean that I have learnt a few things.

How is your Yabusame practice going? Have you made a wooden practice horse yet? Did you look at the clip of the Kasagake Festival and work out what was different? http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=11969

[Brumbies Country]

Morning Grahame

I just replied to this against your original post. Great the colour, the ceremony. Let me know if I spotted the difference.

Simon

[Dennis La Varenne]

Brumbies,

My bow is always canted when I shoot. I DO NOT CANT IT. It is already naturally canted with my normal unforced grip when I hold it out in front of me. An unforced natural cant results in consistency because there is not another thing I have to force into an unnatural position.

I found this out many years ago by the following method. I held my braced bow out at arms length and rotated it both clockwise and anti-clockwise, letting it come to a natural resting position as I relaxed my wrist. I found that I had a natural unforced 10 degree cant which I never had to think about and it was always the same. So, I have left well enough alone since then.

I have gone down the vertical bow thing and found that forcing myself to hold vertically results in inconsistency from shot to shot because it is something additional I have to take notice of and keep aligned.

I would offer that CONSISTENCY OF STYLE is more important that a vertically held or canted bow. If you naturally hold your bow very vertical - stay with it. If your natural hold is canted, stay with that.

My trajectory testing out to 50m which I wrote about in another recent post offered no benefit in a vertical hold over my natural cant, which may go against the archery grain, but that is what I found.

The singular benefit of a canted bow is that spine variations in arrows up as much as 15lbs over spine did not produce any significant shooting to the left (I am right handed). There was a slight amount but it was quite small - about what I would call a 'just missed' amount at 50m.

Surprisingly to me at the time (back in the late 1980s and early 1990s - my bows in those days were 65lb on average.), I also found that underspined arrows NEVER shot around the bow to the right. They actually bounced quite noisily off the arrow plate and wriggled away markedly to the left. I could not get one to go to the right of the bow whatever the spine right down to 5/16" 25-30lb arrows. These little arrows must have been close to breaking. They were barely able to stand in the bow judging by their flight.

If you are finding benefit in a canted bow, stay with it, but it MUST BE CONSISTENT in relation to the vertical axis of your body as you shoot. So, if you need to shoot down a hollow log or under a low bush, keep your cant the same but lean your upper body over.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Dennis

Always good to get your comments. I take your point on the need for consistency. Everything one experiences and reads about in archery indicates the wisdom of good form consistently repeated time and time again.

Against that as outlined earlier I've been shooting longish target recently with a Hoyt recurve hunting bow and I've been shooting it upright, although generally arrows which should be spined pretty well for that bow have grouped a little left on average. My son has just come down from Queensland for Christmas. He wanted to try my recurve so I shot a black locust American Indian Eastern woodland type self bow off the hand. I found with the selfbow I automatically went to a cant and was happy with the way it went. Shooting round the handle, the cant kept my arrows mostly on line instead of a bit of tendency to go a tad left. So I am guilty of inconsistency, but for that particular bow for me I shoot it a bit better that way.

Simon

[Dennis La Varenne]

Simon,

I suspect that with the recurve that the throated grip has something to do with the vertical hold if you are not using a full fisted grip.

As Jeff C remarked to me today that commonly the target archers are holding their bow arm at a natural cant, but placing the bow grip in a position on the thenar prominence with an open fingers hold which allows it to 'hang' in a vertical position so the sights and other paraphernalia can be used properly.

With the Eastern woodlands bow, you would have taken a pretty full fisted grip on it I suspect and it would naturally align with your natural cant.

I will bet you did not have to rotate/twist your arm into either of those hold positions.

As you can imagine, with a Howard Hill style longbow (long composite reflexed flatbow for the technophiles) one takes a full fisted grip which, in a natural arm position, results in a natural cant.

[Farmgirl]

Hello, I'm new here and also very new to archery. I shoot recurve and have found it very comfortable to both can't a little and also bend forward at the hip a little. When you're new to recurve shooting you can get a little worried about getting your form right but I took great comfort from reading a book called "Instinctive Archery Insights" by Jay Kidwell who stresses the importance of being comfortable. I find canting very natural and comfortable.

[Dennis La Varenne]

G'day Farmgirl,

If it works, stick to it unless your shooting deteriorates and it can be specifically attributed to you holding your bow at a cant. Personally, I have never had anybody able to do this with me. The only suggestion from IFAA target shooters in one of my old clubs was to try vertical holding, but I could find no advantage in it after giving it a reasonable try. I found it more disconcerting to have to think about the alignment of the bow in addition to everything else to do with the form I developed for myself that I gave it away as of no profit.

Don't be put off by people who are quite prepared to tell you that canting is bad. IT IS NOT! Inconsistent canting is bad.

That is why I have canted all my shooting life with no ill effect which can be attributed to canting because my cant is a natural unforced cant as, it seems, so is yours. Mine is the same from shot to shot with no variation because I never have to think about it.

If you are deliberately canting, you will run into trouble because you will be twisting your wrist to achieve it and that way of canting produces inconsistency.

[GrahameA]

Hi All.

A different viewpoint.

The game where accuracy and repeatability is paramount is Target Archery.

How many Target Archers who are in the top 10% shoot with a canted bow?

I would suggest if "accuracy and repeatability" is what you seek and all the top archers in that variant do not cant their bow there must be something in it.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Graham,

. . . or, maybe they simply haven't tried it. We should all take notice of proven technique and not dismiss it lightly, but lots of people go with the flow without questioning it and trying alternatives which may suit them better.

At any rate, if you are in a discipline which depends upon the use of sights which can only be used when vertically aligned, that obviates canting by default. Sights can't be used on a canted bow with any kind of facility. The whole target archery paraphernalia is purpose built so that one if forced to use it vertically held. There literally is NO choice.

If there was a sight and stabiliser system setup which could be use on a canted bow, it would be interesting to see whether or not accuracy levels differed.

[kerrille]

target shooting and hunting ....cheese and chalk

...nev...

[GrahameA]

Morning Dennis.

. . . or, maybe they simply haven't tried it. We should all take notice of proven technique and not dismiss it lightly, but lots of people go with the flow without questioning it and trying alternatives which may suit them better.

I would doubt that. Given the numbers of people involved alternatives will have been tried and rejected if there was no gain.

At any rate, if you are in a discipline which depends upon the use of sights which can only be used when vertically aligned, that obviates canting by default. Sights can't be used on a canted bow with any kind of facility.

There are divisions where neither sights or stabiliser systems are used and yet vertical bows still are very much the norm.

The whole target archery paraphernalia is purpose built so that one if forced to use it vertically held. There literally is NO choice.

You are not forced to hold the bow vertically. The archer makes the choice how they hold the bow. There is no difficulty in canting a bow with stabilisers - even if you are using a keel it is only a matter of of adjusting it so that the bow now rests at whatever of cant you desire.

However, as you state, "Sights can't be used on a canted bow with any kind of facility" that would extrapolate to sighting systems and thus the use of sighting systems are not able to be used on a canted bow. Thus in close competition you will at a disadvantage if you are unable to use "Sighting Systems".

[Farmgirl]

Being a newbie and all I am still in the process of improving and consolidating my form. I have practiced a lot lately and have discovered that I had to change my anchor point to further back. Now all of a sudden, what appeared to be a natural cant has virtually disappeared.
I find myself constantly baffled by the big impact a small change can make in archery.

[Brumbies Country]

The small change can make quite a difference and that might dependon your set-up. I mentioned earlier that i think I can shoot my selfbow with a cant, where I rest the arrows on the fingers of the bow hand, reasonably well.

The other night I was doing some training with my barebow recurve. This has an elevated arrow rest and pressure button. With that set-up a small degree of cant was creating a significant horizontal spread at 30-40m. In my hands anyway, canting lends itself better if the arrow rest, in the form of a shelf or fingers is close to the hand of the bow arm (with fingers you don't have much choice ). The elevated rest however is significantly further away from the bow hand and a degree of cant has significant adverse effect on my performance with it.

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

The elevated rest however is significantly further away from the bow hand and a degree of cant has significant adverse effect on my performance with it.

Look at the geometry. . Consider your hand to be the centre of the circle and the distance from your hand to the rest is the radius. Small rotation will give a larger lateral movement with increasing radius.