Instinct arrow tuning conundrum

[Kanin-maskwa]

Hi all,
I have lurked here a while, great site by the way.
Now I have only just started shooting my bow again. Last time was when I harvested a little 3 point white tail buck back in Canada, that would have been more than 10 years ago.
Back then I shot the arrows that I got with the bow, which my uncle gave me.
The bow is a Ben Pearson Flame hunter 45# @28" 60AMO
Now that im getting back into it and I want to get out harvesting again I've picked up some arrows Easton camo hunter 2018 XX75 @ 29-1/8" and 125 grain field points they are feather fletched with offset.

Now here's the problem. My grouping is inconsistent. I'm shooting instinct style as I always have. I've shot approximately 300 arrows in groups of 6 and I've only had a couple good groups. I'm shooting at only 15-18 m at the moment ( restricted by where I shoot)
I've numbered my arrows and I am not seeing a pattern of bad arrows)
I shoot off a raised brush rest and my knock point has not been tuned yet.

So the conundrum. How should I tune? And can I use standard tuning methods with offset or helical fletchings? (I swear there is at least one arrow that seems to tail whip around and around but seems to find it's mark ) there is bad lighting where I'm shooting so just watching the flight is extremely difficult. But if I paper tune I assume it's not the same as if the arrows were straight fletched.
I could strip some fletchings off and try bare shaft tuning but since imminstimct shooting then once I shoot one arrow I'll adapt the next shot so it's not going to reviel anything unless I hit the mark with a fletched arrow then shoot a bare shaft and assume I hadn't changed anything in my shot. That doesn't sound like a very good way of tuning to me.
Should I just get a pin sight and use that for tuning? Or is there a method of paper tuning with my offset?
I just don't know which way I should aproach this.
My apologies if this question is a bit all over the place. I'm typing on my phone.
Cheers

[Stickbow Hunter]

G'day and welcome to the site. Are you living in Oz now?

It would seem that you might need to work on your form up close to your butt a bit first before trying to tune anything much. I say this because you say your are more or less shooting all over the place. If your arras were grouping in a certain place we could then make some more informed comments on wether the arras were weak or stiff in spine ect.

I would check your nocking point and as a start place it 3/8" above right angles to your arra rest. I actually like getting the arra as close as I can to my bow hand for instinctive shooting so I shoot off the shelf.

Anyway something to think about and others will probably chime in with other helpful suggestions.

Jeff

[Kanin-maskwa]

Hi Jeff thanks for the reply. Yes I'm living in Oz now and have my citizenship and raising a family.
I hear what you are saying and yes I know some of it is me for sure. My knock is as you said and seems okay where it is for now.
Here's some more insight. First I bought these arrows and they came with vanes when I would shoot the vanes were comming off and the arrows were kicking knock out left ( I shoot right handed) I had originally wanted feathers so I drove back down tomthe shop after a phone call and swapped my arrows for a feather fletched set.
Now while I inspected them the fletchings seemed a bit ordinary in thief application. I numbered them 1-12 starting with what looked to be the best 12 being ones where the fletchings are stepped and not interlocking. Some are offset more then others.
So although I know some is me I guess I wish I could rule out arrows first and then work on me. But maybe I have it backwards? Should I shoot real close and then move out? Problem is as far as I know close shooting can show a tuning problem that does not appear further out. Originally I hadn't givin it much thought and just figured I would paper tune, then I thought about the offset it made me rethink things.
How am I supposed to know if my arrows are spined right and how my knock position is?

Besides the odd off shot I'm placing all my shots in the target. What happens though is I shoot What I think is good and it seems to just go off I'll shoot another arrow that I think is good and it will group with the first arrow them my mind adjusts then the next goes off 20-30cm then the next arrow I shoot will group with that one.
This happens quite regularly.
I usually know when I've blew it straight away and I'm definitely still trying to work on my form. I'm worried though that I will develop some bad habits trying to compensate for bad tuning if I don't get the arrows right first. Or am I overthinking this?

[longbow steve]

Hi and welcome. 2018 alloys are more suitable to a bow of around 60#. I would suggest you try 2016's . Steve

[Stickbow Hunter]

When I mentioned shooting close to the butt I meant just shooting for form and have a blank bale. Just work on getting a clean release and not moving your bow arm etc.

If your arras aren't porposing up and down the nock point is probably right or close to it.

I didn't comment on your alloys as I don't know what size suits what spine (I shoot woods) but it looks like Steve has got you sorted there.

Please keep us up to date on how you go.

Jeff

[Gringa Bows]

welcome to the site mate

[hazard]

Steve is right try taking a look at the 2016's it would suit the poundage you have a little better.

If you have the means to cut your arrows I find a combination of paper testing and bare shafting has given me a very good result.

I only fletch half my arrows, I shoot them at a bale of hay as Jeff said and ( at eye level) through paper. you can tell by the tears on the paper what is happening.

Youtube is very helpfull at showing Bare shafting and paper testing but the Masters of Bowhunting (I think M.O.B 2) gives a very good explanation of what the techniques are and you can improvise from there.

Making sure your release is spot on though will help dramatically.

But it will take some playing around until you see a patern adjusting from ther is easy.

Hazard

[Kanin-maskwa]

Thank you all very much.
I had a feeling these shafts are a bit stiff. The fellow at the archery shop swears they will fly sweet from my bow and he apparently has been shooting recurve bare bow for like 20 years so I'll give these another chance. I think he was trying to give me robust arrows as I want them for harvesting game and have 125gr outback broadheads to go on them. The first batch of arrows I had seemed a bit short for broadheads so I had these ones cut a bit longer and they definetely fly better. Probably because they act less stiff with the extra
1-1/8" length.
So if I try paper tuning will it reveal my issues. Or will the inconsitant offset fletching send the arrow tearing randomly and disguising the issue?
I have looked and searched but cannot find any information regarding papertuning with offset or helical fletchings. I can just imagine the arrow arrow say kicking the knock left but tearing the paper to the right or up or down depending at which point the arrow comes through as it spirals around. Is that right? Or will the nodes still oscilate in alignment despite the arrow spiraling vs traveling straight without the offset fletching?
I hope my question makes sense.
I would just really like to know any problems are down to me and not my tuning. That way when I get it right I can try to keep repeating the same thing.

[dmm]

I'm shooting a similar poundage bow using 2016's of a similar length and while I need more time on the range, they may be a little week, when bareshaft tuning. With fletching they fly ok. I suspect you may find your arrows too stiff.

You can get yourself a range of heavier points to test if your shafts are too stiff, but given you also have broadheads this probably won't be a good solution.

I relation to arrow robustness, I think my gamegetter aluminum arrows are cheap, but I don't think they are as robust as the carbon arrows the other guys at the club shoot. You might want to consider that, if you end up looking for new shafts.

[matt61]

Hi Kanin
If you are going to stick with instinctive shooting ,I would get rid of the raised rest and get the arrow on the shelf and as close to your hand as possible.With a raised rest you will only get consitant groups with a vertical bow.
Matt

[rmcpb]

Maybe I have missed it but have you checked your anchor point for consistency? You'll never get a group if its all over the place.

[MarkG]

In reguards to your paper testing with helicle fletch question, if you set the paper stand up only 10 feet away from you the arrow should not have enough time to start spinning before it has passed through the paper. You should still see if your getting any fish tailing or porpoising because the fletching hasn't had time to correct any bad flight of the arrow at that distance.

[Kanin-maskwa]

Thank you everyone.
Well I think what Im going to do is a combination of things. I will try paper tuning and also shooting quite close to a blank stop.
Ill shoot all 12 and note any bad arrows that are out of sync and put them aside for later. Should I find a couple of real bad arrows (like 10,11,12 which have fletchings that are stepped) I will strip the fletchings off and then try confirming my finding with bare shaft tuning.

I think I am going to find that these arrows are too stiff. if thats the case I will see if I can trade em in. Otherwise I can load em up with heavy heads to get them flying right and use them when I need a heavy punch at shorter range or when optimum speed is not vital.

I think I should buy the Masters of Barebow too.

well Ill let you know.....this might take me a while