Split fingers vs 3 fingers under

[Brumbies Country]

The 3 fingers under is not an option under some longbow rules but for recurves it certainly is. Following surgery I've recently been playing around with a light 32lb recurve and started trying changing a few things. When I got into archery 6 years ago I originally shot a recurve three fingers under and quickly got onto stringwalking which is OK under AA rules (stringwalkers shoot 3 under). Two years later I switched to a longbow and four the next four years shot longbows (shelf flatbows) and historic bows with Mediterranean release.

With this recent recurve experience I expected to readily switch back to three under but I found it quite strange and darned erratic. I eventually got it feeling better at home and shot an ABA round that way but under the pressure of competition shot badly. I got back to playing with stringwalking again, thought I had it working OK but again after the first four targets of another ABA round( not official, you can't stringwalk under ABA rules) reverted to split fingers.

I reckon with a recurve there are advantages in three under for the relatively short distances of hunting and 3DAAA (less gap) but as the distances get longer then the longer point on distance with split fingers comes more into it's own.

Just wondered if others of you are able to readily switch between split fingers and 3 under. I have a friend who mostly shoots a longbow and has had trouble converting from 3 under to Med release to meet ABA traditional longbow rules. It might also be a good opportunity for discussion which method you prefer and why.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon

Just wondered if others of you are able to readily switch between split fingers and 3 under.

I cannot. I struggle shooting 3 under - it just does not "feel" right. And struggle even more with Stringwalking - hate the noise the bow makes when it is that much out of tiller.

I am happy to admit that Stringwalking is probably the most accurate way to go - it is just not for me.

[longbow steve]

I am the same as Grahame and also like my long distance shooting.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Grahame

Interesting your comments re the noise the bow makes with string walking. After shooting stick bows for 4 years I couldn't believe the noise the recurve made when I started stringwalking again-after getting over the initial fright, I looked over the bow thinking I'd broken something. I did reduce the noise with a bit of tuning including increasing the brace height and using a Flemish twist ff string instead of a factory produced shop bought recurve string, but I take your point.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

I am the same as Grahame and also like my long distance shooting.

Fair enough Steve, as a committed long bow shooter I would have expected no different comment and if you shoot as well as you do why would you change .

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hey Simon,

I have been fiddling with 3 fingers under the last couple of months. Nothing serious just a few shots here and there during my infrequent practice sessions.

As I have said in other posts I have been trying to develop my Gap shooting but have been finding it really hard to suppress the "instinctive" style from interferring. Interestingly the sight picture seems very strange now that I am trying to see the point of my arrow. It is just currently very awkward especially if I lapse from remembering what I am trying to do and then just .... zing! the arrow is gone and I forgot to aim/gap.

anyway.....

That is part of my recent playing with styles and the 3 fingers under...for both gapping and "instinctive". I gave it a try many years ago but like many found it too noisy and unusual and I did not get very good arrow flight. So in my recent fiddling with the technique I was surprised to see that I was only slightly more noisy than my Med release and it actually felt ok and arrow flight was also ok....not brilliant but ok. Which I thought wasn't bad as I had done no tuning or adjustment between one release technique or the next. I do not know but mybe my release has improved recently as I have been trying to remember back tension in my shooting so the difference is not so great. There was a little more noise but not dreadfully so.

That was with mainly the 62 inch DALAA, the Howard Hill 66 inch Owl was not overly fussed but it could I'm sure be made to work. I am saving up for a set of limbs for the DALAA that will give an AMO of 66 inch. This is the set up that I very much want to give stringwalking a try on for no other reason than my own curiousity. It is an interesting and very accurate technique. My other bows will most likely be left to Med release.

I am enjoying fooling around even if it is occasionally frustrating.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Troy

It was actually your post on another thread about trying three under that in part prompted me to discuss this.

I too have found concious gap shooting very hard to do well and figured while I was using the lighter bow I'd try three under because the gaps are smaller. Under FITA and IFAA barebow recurve rules you could actually shoot the shorter targets three under and the longer split finger and be compliant with the rules. I've outlined how it wasn't quite as straightforward as I thought it would be however.

One better story to come out of this for me was that having played around with the recurve with mixed results, but ultimately better results shooting it split finger, I picked up my 40lbs Joe Vardon longbow a few nights ago, walked back shooting at a 3D target and , struth, I was just shooting and regularly hitting without thinking about it. Closest I've come to the subconcious "instinctive' thing for a long time. So I went out the next night on a different target -again good. Same last night. Oh that it might happen in ABA competition!! I hadn't shot that bow for a couple of years but there must have been something good re the mindset.

By the way, with your discussion re Hoyt hunting recurves you have me interested. Might be the way for an aging archer to go . Bit more distance for a bit less poundage relative to longbows and historical bows.

Simon

[DavidM]

I have just changed to 3 under and I'm loving it. It brings the arrow up into my field of vision helping me shoot the Gap a lot better. My point on now is 32m, with split finger it was 45m giving me a maximum gap of just over 1m compared to the 14" I have now.

[alaninoz]

Simon:

I'm not surprised that you're having trouble switching between split and three-under. When I was shooting compound and three-under I wanted to change my point-on distance so switched from anchoring off my index finger to off my middle finger. Took me about 12 months for my scores to get back to where they were.

Since changing to longbow it's been split from the start so that's all I know about. From reading other fora - mostly Trag Gang - some people seem to prefer the sight picture that three-under gives. Can't say it makes much difference to me - the main effect for me is where my point-on distance is.

Possibly not a problem with longer bows, but when using short bows - mainly compounds - shooting split can result in nock pinch.

Since you mentioned Hoyt hunting recurves, the Gamemaster II has a good reputation. Everone I know who has shot one thinks they're good.

[g_r]

Ive tried three under with longbows and hybrids and after a little nock height change and about 20 arrows i can shoot it as good as split.

That said, it still feels kinda wrong somewhere deep inside my head something about having less arrow control (perhaps only imagination) and both ows got a bit louder, not much but hearable.
Therefore i stopped trying it and stay with split fingers.
But i use a high anchor (middlefinger in the corner of my mouth) wich puts my arrow in my vision panel like when i shoot 3under with a low anchor (pointing finger in the mouth-corner).
I am a bit of a gap shooter and the non-excisting change in the vision panel made the swith possible for me, i guess, though as said i switched back.

Man my head really starts smoking when i have to explain complex things like taht in english

[Hiram]

I used to shoot split. Couple years ago went to three under. I missed a nice Buck on a Downward angle from a tree stand. My shot was high because I did not close the gap enough/ I started with three under and found that for my close hunting encounters it afforded less correction of the gap. I still have to aim low a tad, but the gap is much smaller from 0-30 yards. I just come to target past 25 or so yards and raise the Bow to my point on and then adjust it above the target for the drop. I have to hold at the balance point a little longer the further back I'm shooting to adjust the aim for the vertical correction. I do not think three under is superior to split, I just know that it is better for my type of shooting which is usually with in 30 yards or less.

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

Try shooting two fingers under and see what happens.

Some bows that have been tillered for the split release my need some tiller adjustment for three fingers under hence my suggestion to try two fingers under.

Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

I have just changed to 3 under and I'm loving it. It brings the arrow up into my field of vision helping me shoot the Gap a lot better. My point on now is 32m, with split finger it was 45m giving me a maximum gap of just over 1m compared to the 14" I have now.

David, yours is the sort of comment one reads on Tradgang with people apparently readily switching and I think if you are principally in the archery game for hunting or 3DAAA, it makes a lot of sense.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Alan

Interesting to hear you also had a similar problem switching and it took a year to come back to former scores. I take your point re shorter bows. Do you think there is chanceof getting finger pinch on a 60" recurve or are you talking something quite a bit shorter?

Re the Gamemaster, I've seen three at our local Southern NSW shoots and been impressed by them. I'm still getting a little use to the "loop" behind the riser. The Hoyt Dorado also looks OK and has the same limbs as the Gamemaster.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Tony, they bought in the Traditional longbow ABA rules a bit over a year ago. Before that I was regularly shooting with two guys who shot three under. AlaninOz will correct me if I get this wrong but my strong feeling is that the ABA modern longbow class allows for 3 under, and it also allows for alloy arrows. So you can still shoot three under, just different class.

g-r You've explained it well-your English is a way lot better than my German

Hiram, sounds like you could well be coming from the US and great to hear from you.

Daryl, hope things haven't been too damp up there. That's a really good recommendation. I'll try that. The 32lb bow should readily lend itself to a two finger hold and release. I have played a little with that in the past. probably stopped trying it when I started playing with heavier historical bows, but yes, time to revisit.

Simon

[robmoore]

I used to shoot split. Couple years ago went to three under. I missed a nice Buck on a Downward angle from a tree stand. My shot was high because I did not close the gap enough/ I started with three under and found that for my close hunting encounters it afforded less correction of the gap. I still have to aim low a tad, but the gap is much smaller from 0-30 yards. I just come to target past 25 or so yards and raise the Bow to my point on and then adjust it above the target for the drop. I have to hold at the balance point a little longer the further back I'm shooting to adjust the aim for the vertical correction. I do not think three under is superior to split, I just know that it is better for my type of shooting which is usually with in 30 yards or less.

A few years ago I was trying to figure out the reason for erratic variations in height of shots (Using three fingers under). Darryl Reeks told me that was not uncommon - and recommended installing the nock set BELOW the arrow. With three fingers under, on release, the nock of the arrow tends to drop into a vee in the string caused by the three finger release. This often causes erratic variations in the height of the arrow as it leaves the string. If the nock set is positioned below the arrow it always leaves the string at precisely the same height. His advice worked for me. It may not apply to every one - but aside from winning a world event, Darryl has also set a world record with his longbow so is a fairly experienced archer.
If you decide to try this idea, you may need to tie a few wraps of serving above the arrow to prevent the arrow from tilting up at the rear before you start to draw. If your nocks are not loose on the serving, you will not need this. In earlier time, ABA did not allow a top and bottom nock indicator for barebow archers but that rule was changed a couple of years ago.

Regards
Bob

[hazard]

I only moved to 3 fingers under to avoid pinch on shorter bows. But Greybeards point about tillering may be the answer to your problem I have not had any problems alternating to suit the shot, though I only follow my own rules these days. But i feel 3 fingers under can give you a cleaner release, depending on your style.
Hazard

[Brumbies Country]

Bob, you'd reckon if the advice came from Darryl that it would have to be worth trying. I met him at the IFAA Nationals in Orange in June. Didn't shoot in his group but we was a mine of information at the practice butts. As well as those World IFAA longbow titles and records he has a previous tidy record with recurves.

Hazard, I was wondering roughly how short a bow you were shooting when you experienced finger pinch?

Simon

[hazard]

For a time I turned to the Dark Side of the Force and trying not to swear I used a...... Compound (my appologies of the course language!) and later found in a 55-60" recurve, the style also seemed to fit. I must also add I started with tabs and now use a glove, and seem not to have a problem with either.
Hazard

[Brumbies Country]

For a time I turned to the Dark Side of the Force and trying not to swear I used a...... Compound (my appologies of the course language!) and later found in a 55-60" recurve, the style also seemed to fit. I must also add I started with tabs and now use a glove, and seem not to have a problem with either.
Hazard

It's OK, I figured you were talking about a compound . At this stage I haven't shot a recurve below 66" but have my eye on maybe a Hoyt take-down hunting recurve 60-62". Guess one wouldn't expect finger pinch at that length.

[robmoore]

It's OK, I figured you were talking about a compound . At this stage I haven't shot a recurve below 66" but have my eye on maybe a Hoyt take-down hunting recurve 60-62". Guess one wouldn't expect finger pinch at that length.

I hope this isn't drifting too far off the thread... Hoyt recurves have already been mentioned above. (Gamemaster and Dorado). I hear that this year they have now also released another recurve called a Buffalo - and it's meant to be strongly aimed at traditional archers and hunters. Has anyone here seen them or have any comments about them? How might a "Buffalo" compare with the previous two models?

The Hoyt link is at http://www.hoyt.com/recurve_bows/hoyt_r ... unting.php .

Regards
Bob

[alaninoz]

Simon:

You shouldn't have a problem with nock pinch on a 60" recurve unless you've got a really long draw - maybe even longer than mine!

In ABA the modern longbow division allows you to use three-under, alloys, carbons, etc. In the traditional longbow division you must use split-finger and woods. There's more to it than that in both cases, but I'd have to look up the rules to go any further.

[Brumbies Country]

It's OK, I figured you were talking about a compound . At this stage I haven't shot a recurve below 66" but have my eye on maybe a Hoyt take-down hunting recurve 60-62". Guess one wouldn't expect finger pinch at that length.

I hope this isn't drifting too far off the thread... Hoyt recurves have already been mentioned above. (Gamemaster and Dorado). I hear that this year they have now also released another recurve called a Buffalo - and it's meant to be strongly aimed at traditional archers and hunters. Has anyone here seen them or have any comments about them? How might a "Buffalo" compare with the previous two models?

The Hoyt link is at http://www.hoyt.com/recurve_bows/hoyt_r ... unting.php .

Regards
Bob

Bob

There's been a thread going on the Buffalo on Traditional Tackle on this forum. Sounds good. Designed to be only shot off the shelf whereas the other two allow for an arrow rest and pressure button.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Simon:

You shouldn't have a problem with nock pinch on a 60" recurve unless you've got a really long draw - maybe even longer than mine!

In ABA the modern longbow division allows you to use three-under, alloys, carbons, etc. In the traditional longbow division you must use split-finger and woods. There's more to it than that in both cases, but I'd have to look up the rules to go any further.

Thanks Alan

I've seen your length of draw-It's impressive . At around 27" I should be OK.

Simon

[robmoore]

Bob

There's been a thread going on the Buffalo on Traditional Tackle on this forum. Sounds good. Designed to be only shot off the shelf whereas the other two allow for an arrow rest and pressure button.

Simon

Ahhh - sounds interesting -Thanks Simon

Bob

[longbowinfected]

I use the split finger under chin release because it is easier for me with gap shooting long distance. Because I shoot a flat laid glassed boo bow and like shooting woods as much as possible it means that I have nothing to change when at trad, AA or an ABA shoot [only done two at Lithgow and one at Tuggeranong].

I have enough trouble maintaining form without adding to the operator error by changing my release. I find that shooting the same sets of arrows, the same bow and equipment helps me to develop more consistency. I even wear the same types of tee shirts, shorts and the same sort of elastic sided work boots and especially the same hat.

Kev

[Chase N. Nocks]

Hi Simon,

Try shooting two fingers under and see what happens.

Some bows that have been tillered for the split release my need some tiller adjustment for three fingers under hence my suggestion to try two fingers under.

Daryl.

Yes Darryl,

Axe, who was once a regular poster here shot very successfully using two fingers under.

I have not remembered to try it lately with any real deliberation but it seems that it would have at least a couple of things going for it.

1. the tiller I imagine becomes less crucial or at least is less compromised

2. removing 33.3% of the finger surface area on the string has the potential to offer an even cleaner release.

I do think bow poundage would be a factor..so if you are just on the edge of your max comfortable pulling weight there may be an adjustment period or requirement for a lighter poundage.

Cheers
Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

I find that shooting the same sets of arrows, the same bow and equipment helps me to develop more consistency.

Kev

Kev what you say is so so true! I tell myself this all the time! I have proved this to myself in the past when limited funds did not allow a wall full of lovely bows..

find yourself good equipment, tune yourself AND the bow (tuning goes both ways) and use it over and over again.

I fail,.

Confessions of a Bow Junkie

Cheers, Troy

[Brumbies Country]

I find that shooting the same sets of arrows, the same bow and equipment helps me to develop more consistency.

Kev

Kev what you say is so so true! I tell myself this all the time! I have proved this to myself in the past when limited funds did not allow a wall full of lovely bows..

find yourself good equipment, tune yourself AND the bow (tuning goes both ways) and use it over and over again.

I fail,.

Confessions of a Bow Junkie

Cheers, Troy

Absolutely agree Troy. Kev is doing what we should all be doing, consistency in form, equipment and indeed anything that is relevant. I put it down to working in a scientific institution but I have to trial everything that is going in archery. Got to pursue every darn pathway, try all types of equipment ancient and new, long as it's not a compound. The latter fortunately don't come into the equation because damaged bow arm rotator cuff wont hold up a physical weight of much over 1Kg.

For the record over the weekend I trialled the suggestions forwarded on this thread. Two fingers under certainly resulted in a cleaner release. Lowering the nocking point (as per Bob Moore/Darryl Reeks recommendation) gave me some interestingly consistent results shooting using two and three under (except I had an incidence of increased plastic fletch dislodgement). I did these comparisons in replications of the same number of shots using each method over a number of varied distances and compared it with split finger, same replications over same distances. Consistently with split finger I got significantly less horizontal displacement of arrows and lost little with split finger compared to two and three under at 5m-20m. Those were the distances I'd reckoned 3 under would have a significany advantage. Of course it wasn't a controlled study at all because all my recent shooting has been three finger. Anyway it was enough to answer the question for myself.

I have a parting question. What is recommended for attaching plastic fletches to carbon arrows? I've used Fletch-Tite platinum to attach feather fletches to woods for ages with neary a casualty, but I've had a significant plastic fletch detachment from carbon using the same stuff. Some hard action on arrows through the experimenting didn't help .

Simon

[alaninoz]

Simon:

From my days shooting carbons out of a compound - loctite 406 works well with plastic vanes and carbons. Just remember to prepare the shaft by sanding lightly with maybe 600 grit wet and dry, and then rub down with metho. Also, rub the base of the vanes with metho or acetone then, if you really want good grip, wipe the base of the vane with loctite 770 before applying the 406.

You can shoot feathers on carbons you know