The myth of "Instinctive Shooting " explained ???????????

[perry]

I know, I know, this topics been debated to death but I was on Pirates of Archery [ first link ] just now and this chap offered an intriguing insight into the mysteries of "Instinctive Shooting" which as you all know I consider the term a misnomer. The chap offers the 2nd link I've posted as part of his hypothesis of a recent scientific discovery that really caught my attention also

http://www.piratesofarchery.net/bb/view ... =5&t=11514

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2010-04-15

What do you folks think.

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry.

Easiest answer is to use the authors own words.

So, by accepting the stories about the instinctive shooting studies and their equivocal results, (yes I’m going out on a limb here) and combining them with the concept of blind sight I have arrived at a theory of instinctive shooting. For one thing, yes it can work. In order for it to work though, the arrow, or the bow’s shelf, or sight window, or other reference MUST be visible to the eye. These references are actually processed. They are used to drive what the shooter does with his body, much like the blind man in the hallway. However, the instinctive shooter has managed to train himself into a sort of blind sight condition in which this processing is no longer happening consciously. This processing is occurring in the more “primitive” areas of the brain. An oversimplified view of brain functions, but think of it as if this processing is occurring in the “reptile brain” we all have. Perhaps the term “instinctive” isn’t quite such a misnomer after all?

and from his signature line"That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."- Christopher Hitchens

As he says - the information is being processed without the archer being consciously aware of it. Nothing has changed, it remains a learnt skill. I would also suggest that he has a hypothesis, not a theory. For it to have some validity requires appropriate testing and review.

[Gringa Bows]

Here we go again

[wishsong]

Perry, I followed the same thread on Pirates ... I think it is a valid explaination ... as in information is processed at some stage and the more repitition the better the process becomes .

I still don't see anything but what I want to hit though in my sight picture at 40 metres and under ...past that I consciously gap with the arrow.
In close at hunting ranges my "processing " seems to work ok ... sometimes .....

[Chase N. Nocks]

Excellent find there Perry. Very interesting.

I think I differ from Bender only really in our percieved effectiveness of the "instinctive" archer as I have always held the belief that it is a highly effective shooting style. It has it's limitations as well as it's unique benefits. All the styles have benefits and limitations and in barebow there is little disgrace in being beaten by any other style. Certainly I think some have an advantage in the field archery/still hunting situation and others have advantages in the stalking/snap shooting situation. Familiarity with equipment, repeatable form and attitude make the top archers of all the various styles formidible in most any situation.

Just recently I have been trying to gap shoot and quite frankly it is bloody hard. I am currently hopeless at it because I am trying to force myself to deliberately factor the point of the arrow into my shooting and it completely messes with the rythem of my shot...that's when I remember to even do it.....once the swing draw begins it has a life of it's own.

As an "instinctive" archer I have never really believed those that claim not to SEE the arrow, mainly because I have always seen the arrow I have just paid it no (conscious) mind. Now that I am trying to cross reference the point of the arrow against the target I can't decide whether I should be looking at two things at once and my old eyes don't seem to be very obliging or whether to skip between the point and the target and just accept that this may take just as much learning to do well as the "instinctive style" did. I admit to expecting some learning curve but I did underestimate the adjustment. Both an interesting and frustrating exercise.

It is going to take some doing I think to cross over to gap but I believe there are great benefits and the two styles can actually compliment each other at least at the point of making me a more versatile archer, practically and technically.

Next is three fingers under....which I don't actually mind.

Then string walking

Cheers
Troy

[kerrille]

subconscious/instinctive you say tomAtoe i say tomartoe

....nev...

[perry]

Evening fella's - I'm still thinking about this.

Biggest thing to me is the video goes a way ?? to expalining why so many that shoot "Instinctive" have no idea where the arrow is. If the blind man truely had no idea he was weaving down the hallway perhaps it's the same phenomenom. I'd like to see a controlled study of a lot more than one man to be 100% convinced though. Makes one think none the less

So many questions !! I can't help but wonder if Blindsight may be something we use as Barebow Archers, something that may take a little of the hocus pocus out of this debate. At the least there appears to be some support of the learned behaviour side of the argument.

Is it another step into unlocking the mysteries of the subconscious mind. As an Archer who has devoted a lot of time to becoming a more subconscious shooter why wouldn't I want to know more!

Where else does Blindsight ?? assist us in our lives. Don't you find it intriguing that someone has done some testing and research and there appears to be a greater sensory interaction going on than previously understood. Do Animals have this same sence?? / instinct ???? whatever you call it - surely this interests the hunters amoungst us

Perhaps the wrong place to ask such questions but Mastering the Traditional Bow is all about knowledge and part of learning is asking questions and thinking about the answers so as to expand that knowledge

regards Jacko

[wishsong]

One of the interesting things I picked up having Rod Jenkins over here was when he referred to the difference between all the shooting styles . As he was explaining 'gap' shooting to us whilst we hid in Asbell/Schulz terror of the word ... he re iterated that it ain't that different. He explained that even though he is a dedicated Gap shooter , he may 'see' the arrow but he sure as eggs NEVER looks at it ...

[kombikid]

Reading this thread has caused me to analyse my own shooting method. I've been pottering around this year learning how to make woodbows, made a lot in native timbers that didn't work, then went to masaranduba decking planks from Bunnings in Hervey Bay ripped into three staves and backed with bamboo split out of Bunnings Maryborough 75mm garden poles. Makes nice longbows.
Shooting in my latest I always found my first shot over my 18 metre backyard either went well left or hit bang on. I'm right handed but left eye dominant owing to a retinal bleed in my right eye years ago.
I've always thought of myself as an instinctive shooter, but I am indeed a gap shooter. I anchor just under my cheekbone, focus on the target and aim low right using the peripheral vision in both eyes to check the position of the arrow. A shot only takes 2-3 seconds to draw, aim and loose and I'm finding this method works well for me.
At closer ranges I lay the bow well over towards the horizontal, draw somwhere around the point of my jaw, look at the target and loose, so perhaps this is closer to real instinctive shooting.
A very interesting thread,
Cheers,
Ian
Oh and by the way, I'm working on a sweetly shaped bit of Black Wattle that has a natural reflex/deflex shape to it. It's in the vice with some sideways tension and heat on it at the moment as it curled a bit far drying and shifted the run of the string too far off centre. It was only cut 9 days ago so I want to correct things before it dries out too much.

[longbow steve]

Good to have you here Ian, Hamish said you were having success with the Bullet wood. Looking forward to seeing some of your bows. Cheers Steve

[kombikid]

Thanks for the kind words, the bows I make are very much according to the KISS principal, nothing there that doesn't have to be there. I just had the Black Wattle split a little one end while I was getting a bit of twist out of it, so it's down to 61" now, still got lotsa reflex, and I've already chased the back ring right down and left some sapwood on the sides so it looks like it'll end up a widish short reflex bow like the east coast Indians apparently used.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, I'll carry on this conversation on a new thread with pics if I can figure out how to post them,
Cheers,
Ian

[perry]

Hijack away, perhaps Blindsight explains threads that go off on a tangent also

regards Jacko

[stringnstik]

What bugs me most is the blindsight dude who goes for a walk. I can swallow most of it right up to the last statement.
"the blind man was not consciously aware of having perceived anything or having made any manoeuvres to avoid the obstacles! "
Im sorry, if you watch the video, he makes very deliberate avoidance moves, how can anyone not be aware of their body changing from front on to side on etc.
I d swallow it , if he said he wasnt sure why he moved, or he just assumed it was the natural blind wobble but thats not what he says. In order to do a test like this you would have to put the dude on drugs to block out his conscious process. His inner ear for example would feel all those moves and would be screaming out to maintain upright front on walking and thus conflicting with his"blindsight'?

of course im not a doctor...of anything so what do I know.

[GrahameA]

Morning

What bugs me most is the blindsight .... Im sorry, if you watch the video, he makes very deliberate avoidance moves, how can anyone not be aware of their body changing from front on to side on etc.
I d swallow it , .... In order to do a test like this you would have to put the dude on drugs to block out his conscious process... of course im not a doctor...of anything so what do I know.

You are not seriously claiming that you want some rigid Scientific Testing? Good grief, why do something like that when it is possible to make all sorts of claims on questionable evidence.

[Dennis La Varenne]

I still maintain that the term is an appropriate archery term used to explain a method of shooting where there is no further conscious thought being given to the shooting process other than to actually decide to shoot.

'Instinctive shooting' is an Archery term, NOT a scientific term and never has been. So far as archery is concerned, how we arrive at the skill is immaterial. We all start of with the rudiments of the skill and it improves with practice. That is a learning process - of course it is. It would be foolish to deny otherwise.

However, this continued business of trying to justify it or refute it by applying the extraordinarily narrow criterion of biological definition to an archery term explains nothing ad is really a non-argument. We in archery reserve the right to coin our own terms for our own reasons without regard to unrelated areas of expertise.

[Chase N. Nocks]

I still maintain that the term is an appropriate archery term used to explain a method of shooting where there is no further conscious thought being given to the shooting process other than to actually decide to shoot.

'Instinctive shooting' is an Archery term, NOT a scientific term and never has been. So far as archery is concerned, how we arrive at the skill is immaterial. We all start of with the rudiments of the skill and it improves with practice. That is a learning process - of course it is. It would be foolish to deny otherwise.

However, this continued business of trying to justify it or refute it by applying the extraordinarily narrow criterion of biological definition to an archery term explains nothing ad is really a non-argument. We in archery reserve the right to coin our own terms for our own reasons without regard to unrelated areas of expertise.

Exactly...I consider myself very much a part of the "we in archery". No more or less than any other archer. That is why I have no qualms about questioning the appropriateness of the term or the "official authority" of the term. There is obviously a strong emotional attachment to the term and so be it. I called myself an instinctive archer for many many years...it was/is the style I employed and worked hard to do well.

It is also a style I would quite happily guide a new archer into using but I would also suggest that depending on the new archer's goals, another style could be more appropriate or even blend styles to fit the various situations. I would also introduce them to the concept that instinctive is just the "romantic" label we give to pairing rote learning with a fluid unconscious shooting style. They can use the term how they want I don't really care. I still use it...as you say as a matter of convention but that is all. I do not use it as a matter of description.

BTW, I have met more than a handful of archers (in 35 years of archery) that frankly believe in instinctive archery in very much a literal sense...that they did not infact learn to shoot but rather untapped something that was there. Something inborn, something mysterious. I am sure that I am not the only one to have met archers expressing this view. So when someone says that we archers know and agree how this term is used then I have to disagree...examples of disagreement are found in the limited realm of this forum which is just a microcosm of the larger archery community and that is not including the viewpoint of hard core high tech archers and how they view and hold opinions of the "instinctive" aiming method.

I am a very very lazy person. And "instinctive" has allowed me in the past, when I was shooting hundreds of arrows every week year after year to shoot very well with no effort at all. With barely a clue what I was doing. As I said above it is really difficult at the moment trying to do something different. Would love to hear more from archers that were "instinctive" and are now doing or in the process of another style such as Gap, POA etc. Has the old style suffered or been enhanced as a result? Have they become a better archer.

I don't in all honestly consider myself a Traditional Archer although I love shooting recurves and longbows most, and traditional archery best of all. But I love shooting ALL bows, including crossbows. That is all archery to me and I am simply an Archer. And if I am reduced one day to shooting one of those Cartel micro-compounds at a dartboard in the garage of the nursing home then so be it. I do love to watch arrows fly and I have learned not to drop my bowarm inspite of the strong desire to take a peek.

Cheers
Troy

[Antonio]

I have some times not gone to the range for a long time and shot gap long distance .
but as I got closer gap was good to about 30 yards but at twenty yards .
I am better of just switching the brain of and let go of the arrow when the feeling is right like the energy between me and the target feels right .

and it works .like there is some path of energy to the target and my body adjusts to that energy path and the shots get there .

as a kid I used to throe stones a lot and watch them land also used to use a sling and that I felt there was an energy path towards the target .

when ever I did some really good shots with the long bow .it was a feeling that there was an energy path that connected me and the target felt that I was one with the path the ground the target .

Howard Hill called it split vision I would call it split soul .its almost like my soul would split in two and some of my soul`s personality would in the arrow and
and the other part was in my body observing me the arrow in flight .

I was thinking if a person practiced instinctive shooting in the range .and at night practiced astral travel and incorporated being them selfs and also being the arrow and practiced on the astral plain would they be a better shot ?

would they be an other Howard Hill .could they be an other Howard Hill?
or go even better and be the best shot the planet has ever seen .

some people say Howard hill was an reincarnation of many archers in past lives along the way ,he sharpened his skills over many life times .
I think some of us missed the boat buts its still good to keep trying

they say those who get out become good archers
but before you rush of to the astral plain be aware Robin Hood and Howard hill are all booked out

[UPTHETOP]

Alert Alert hijacked again Perry, Antonio ??????????????.

Confused Wayno?

[Hiram]

The use of the word "Instinctive" to describe a shooting method? Well regardless of the definition it is just a general description. Really, there is no need to break it down any further. We all know that there is a right way, and a wrong way. The right way, is the way you do it to hit the mark!

[perry]

Hijacking's are fine, keeps me amused. The point of this thread was to bring too peoples attention The Possibility ??? of a previously unknown Sence ?? that may go a small way towards explaining the unchartered workings of shooting a Bow. Not once have I talked of correct terms or shooting styles in the thread.

I will continue to upset the apple cart and ask questions when seeking answers to something that fascinates me as to dismiss this as immaterial is burying ones head in the sand. I also am not afraid to admit I'm wrong and equally ready to gloat - just a TAD !!!!! Why would'nt one seek the opportunity to do either ????????????

Sure the video looks contrived, I've hinted at this earlier - but a stringest scientific process could prove / explain the existence of a previously little understood ability we posses which I also hinted to earlier- why wouldn't we want to learn of and understand this. Continually expanding my knowledge of how things work in every aspect of Archery has helped me become a better Archer. Just because something has alway's been accepted does not mean it's right.

Is the real issue here that knowing how something works down to every last nut and bolt takes the mystery and romantic ideal out of it.

Tell me just what fuels Man's continued development of Archery but the drive to learn and understand then apply that knowledge. There is far more to Archery than the Equipment

regards Jacko

[wishsong]

The right way, is the way you do it to hit the mark!

Nicely said mate .....
Its just easier to do with a WARF !

[Hiram]

"Hijacking's are fine, keeps me amused" quote

Ok, let's explore it once more! First though, it is important to understand definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

in·stinctive·ly adv.
Synonyms: instinctive, instinctual, intuitive, visceral
These adjectives mean derived from or prompted by a natural tendency or impulse: an instinctive fear of snakes; instinctual behavior; an intuitive perception; visceral revulsion.

Many Animals are born with "instinctive" or "involuntary" responses as it applies to their "response" to tasks or stimuli that may require a "Motor response" or involuntary adaptation. For example; Ducks can swim, Birds can fly, and Oxygen is sucked into our lungs "involuntarily" once we are stimulated to do so. Your Heart beats, Your Immune system works, and you are able to ADAPT, based on the ability inherent to YOUR "Anitomical" make up from birth. Intuitive, or http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intuitive other in otherwords "adaptations" can be made to certain stimuli as a result.

OK, Now that we have the definitions, let's explore it as it relates to a "Learned" skill or undertaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye%E2%80% ... ordination, should lead you to understand how this works.

Now the undertaking of Archery and how it applies to the word "Instinctive" is NOT an accurate term by definition!!!!
It is; A general "term" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term used to express a "Method" of shooting a Bow by many! Nothing more, nothing less.

You might retort with; 'Well I just picked it up and knew how to shoot it" I doubt it! OK, Can you say this from the beginning of your Archery shooting? If so, WHY would we need to practice to maintain consistency if it "Archery" was not a learned behaviour???????? One MUST practice to achieve his goals by hitting the mark! Right? If you can simply walk out any time with any Bow and hit a Coffee cup at twenty yards, every time, YOUR an Anomaly!!! y
   /əˈnɒməli/ Show Spelled[uh-nom-uh-lee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -lies.
1.
a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.

[Hiram]

"There is far more to Archery than the Equipment" I completely agree! You must learn to adapt by learning the basic fundamentals as it applies to "Archery", then go afield and enjoy the "flight of the arrow"!

[Hiram]

"Jacko said;"I will continue to upset the apple cart and ask questions when seeking answers to something that fascinates me as to dismiss this as immaterial is burying ones head in the sand. I also am not afraid to admit I'm wrong and equally ready to gloat - just a TAD !!!!! Why would'nt one seek the opportunity to do either ????????????"

I like this MATE! It reflects your willingness to "explore" and learn more! This attitude is one of perspective and a willingness to go beyond the excepted rule to understanding a subject or matter.


A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad.
Theodore Roosevelt

[kombikid]

Still following this thread with interest. I put a hundred or so shots through my longbow this arvo after work, about half using the method described in my last post at 20 yards, then half using my "point n' shoot" method over the same range. After correcting an initial tedency to shoot high it was marginally more accurate. Say four out of twelve shafts in a four inch plastic disc instead of three. Mind you I suppose that's an improvement of 25% in accuracy. Using this method I also feel more like I am "pushing" the arrow at the target with the left hand, rather than loosing a shaft with my right, sounds odd, but that's the way it feels.
BUT!!! Is "point 'n shoot" instinctive??
I still align the arrow with the target using peripheral vision, while focussing on the target, and I had to "learn" not to shoot high. Also after firing thousands of arrows there must be a program stashed in the subconscious that's become pretty damn good at calculating trajectory and predicting likely impact points using input from eyes, muscle tension for predicting arrow speed and lots of other arcane data as well no doubt.
This is a subject that seems to arouse a lot of passion, I really don't care either way, but I am finding it fascinating, and it has caused me to have another look at the way I shoot.
Cheers,
Ian

[Chase N. Nocks]

"Hijacking's are fine, keeps me amused" quote

Ok, let's explore it once more! First though, it is important to understand definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

in·stinctive·ly adv.
Synonyms: instinctive, instinctual, intuitive, visceral
These adjectives mean derived from or prompted by a natural tendency or impulse: an instinctive fear of snakes; instinctual behavior; an intuitive perception; visceral revulsion.

Many Animals are born with "instinctive" or "involuntary" responses as it applies to their "response" to tasks or stimuli that may require a "Motor response" or involuntary adaptation. For example; Ducks can swim, Birds can fly, and Oxygen is sucked into our lungs "involuntarily" once we are stimulated to do so. Your Heart beats, Your Immune system works, and you are able to ADAPT, based on the ability inherent to YOUR "Anitomical" make up from birth. Intuitive, or http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intuitive other in otherwords "adaptations" can be made to certain stimuli as a result.

OK, Now that we have the definitions, let's explore it as it relates to a "Learned" skill or undertaking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye%E2%80% ... ordination, should lead you to understand how this works.

Now the undertaking of Archery and how it applies to the word "Instinctive" is NOT an accurate term by definition!!!!
It is; A general "term" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term used to express a "Method" of shooting a Bow by many! Nothing more, nothing less.

You might retort with; 'Well I just picked it up and knew how to shoot it" I doubt it! OK, Can you say this from the beginning of your Archery shooting? If so, WHY would we need to practice to maintain consistency if it "Archery" was not a learned behaviour???????? One MUST practice to achieve his goals by hitting the mark! Right? If you can simply walk out any time with any Bow and hit a Coffee cup at twenty yards, every time, YOUR an Anomaly!!! y
   /əˈnɒməli/ Show Spelled[uh-nom-uh-lee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -lies.
1.
a deviation from the common rule, type, arrangement, or form.

G'day Hiram, welcome to Ozbow.

Mate I think Perry was more suggesting that the intent of his initial post was to introduce a new piece of evidence in relation to animal senses that MAY have a bearing on how we shoot bows.

Perry's most common stance on this forum in terms of "instinctive" archery is more similar to the one you hold here but in the interests of exploration and understanding this physical and mental game we play called archery he has shared this new information inspite of the fact that it may counter his original stance.

I also hold very much in line with what you have said above...IMHO if someone is looking for the closest example of an "instinctive" archer out there don't look for one with two legs...rather look at the animal in my avatar. The Archer Fish of the Family: Toxotidae and the Genus: Toxotes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archerfish

And yet this animal with all it's amazing evolutionary tools

Young archerfish start shooting when they are about 2.5 cm long, but are inaccurate at first and must learn from experience. During this learning period, they hunt in small schools. This way, the probability is enhanced that at least one jet will hit its target.

Out of interest check out the links below where debate has raged, especially about definitions. I think you will find some interesting and quite strong disagreement on the use of the term. You will find Perry an admirer of the method and I can personally vouch that he is an efficient practicioner of the method...but has disputed the term "instinctive" as a "misnomer" as he says.

Post subject: Instinctive shooting - an instinctive shooter's perspectivePosted
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10414

Post subject: Instinctive shooting method-your way of taking the shot
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6597

Cheers. enjoy

Troy

[Chase N. Nocks]

This is a subject that seems to arouse a lot of passion, I really don't care either way, but I am finding it fascinating, and it has caused me to have another look at the way I shoot.
Cheers,
Ian

Ian, it is an interesting subject (for some of us). Other archers I have met have not the slightest interest in discussing shooting styles. I enjoy it, but then I enjoy conversation and particularly archery conversations.

My experience was the reverse in that I started looking at various other shooting styles, started analysing my own style more closely and that fact that words are important to me and clear language is important clear analysis (maybe not for abstract or creative thinking) found the term unsatisfying.

Cheers
Troy

[Hiram]

Thank ya! "I" see the arrow.

[aroadik]

Hiram/Sam ! is that you ? cheers Pete.

[Hiram]

Hiram/Sam ! is that you ? cheers Pete.

That is me!!!!lol Now beam me over Scotty!!!!!!!