Are these examples of bare shaft tuning acceptable?

[Dodger]

Never done this before. Hence, I need to know if a little more tuning is in order or not. Distance is a measured 13 yards.
Thanks.
Dodger

[matt61]

Hi Dodger
If you are a right handed shooter the bare shafts are too stiff,you need either longer shafts or a point of that weighs
more, ie if your feild point is 100 grns change them to 125 grns or even 150 grn until the bare shafts are hitting the butt straight like the fletched arrows.
Matt

[kimall]

Unless arrows fly differant in India I would have said they are a bit SOFT but I leave them a bit soft bare shaft as they stiffen with feathers on them.
Cheers KIM

[Nephew]

They look like Gamegetters, are they 400s or 500s, Dodger? Way to soft, whatever they are. Try taking just 5mm off them at a time and see how they straighten, mate.

[bear74]

nock left for a right handed shooter indicates that the spine of the shaft is too soft so the shaft will need to be shortened 1/4 to 1/2 inch until the arrow sticks in staright or lighter tip used if the head is too heavy.

[Dodger]

I am using O.L. Adcock's method in which he specifically states, "You are going to make adjustments based on where the groups are in relation to each other, not on whether the nocks are kicking one way or another. IGNORE SHAFT ANGLE! It is irrelevant." http://www.bowmaker.net/tuning.htm He further states, "...at 20 yards or more, bare shafts grouping a little low and right is perfect because fletching makes a shaft react slightly stiffer."I have already come down in point weight by removing the internal weights weighing 25 grains. The first two groups were shot with 100 gr. points and the third with 125 gr. points. I would prefer to shoot with 125 gr. points as that is what my broadheads weigh and would prefer not to reorder if possible. Will wait until I get an opportunity to shoot and see the results at 15 and 20 yards before reducing the shaft length by a bit, if you guys still think it is called for.

Craig, the shafts are GameGetters 500, currently cut to 29" BOP.

[longbow steve]

Hey Dodger, I think the groups are acceptable. Like Kimall I go for a little on the weak side for my bare shafts. Steve

[Dodger]

Thanks, Steve. Would it be preferable if the bare shafts stuck in straight and parallel to the fletched shafts or is that irrelevant as Adcock states? I have more or less run out of shaft length and am at the manufacturer's minimum brace height of 7 1/2". This leaves point weight and strike plate thickness as the only two variables for me to experiment with.

I reduced the length of one bare shaft and one fletched shaft to 28" BOP and found that the shaft angle had reduced. The top two pics show groups shot from 10 yards and the remaining two from 13 yards. I am still using 125 gr. points. Incidentally, the groups shot from 13 yards were shot from a 5 to 10 degree angle due to space restrictions.

[matt61]

Hi Dodger
lucky those other guys corrected my bad advice,sorry about that,I had it back to front
I will claim it being too early in the morning .I think better watch my arrow tuning DVD again
Matt

[Dodger]

No problem, Matt.
In this DVD you refer to, are the bare and fletched shafts parallel to each other?
Thanks.

[matt61]

Hi Dodger
Yes they are.The DVD is Masters of the Barebow volume one from the USA.
I have volumes one two and three ,they are fantastic for information on tuning
and shooting traditional bows.
cheers
Matt

[Dodger]

Thanks, Matt.

[longbow steve]

Hi Dodger, without fletches, finger shooting and a non centre shot bow I doubt you will get the unfletched shafts straight. This may be achievable on an Olympic style recurve with plunger which is what is used in the tests in Masters of the Barebow and Modern Traditional DVD's i believe. I think you are where you need to be regarding nock height and spine range/arrow frequency. Steve

[Nephew]

I don't know, Steve. I bare shaft tune Gamegetters for my Gringa longbow and I wont fletch them until I've got them hitting the target straight first. I use the 400s with 175 grn points on a 57 # @ 28" bow and I find they are best, for me, at 29.5 ". Having said that, I am a bit of a pedant with the gear ( since I went away with Rod and Jeff and saw how they are with their gear, although neither bare shaft tune to my knowledge. I was pretty slack before that through ignorance. ) and I reckon these your using will be fine for you, Dodger, once fletched.

[kimall]

I have always found that if the arrows bare are flying straight and landing straight out to 20 yards than the fletched arrows will fly perfect.I know the groups advice works for some and comes from guys with HEAPS more brains than me but if the arrows are flying straight then why worry if the bare and fletched are hitting the same place you never shoot bare again when you have the arrow setup.I find it easy enough to get the arrow hitting straight by shortening a shaft thats a bit long bit by bit and just watching the flight improve until it is just a TINY bit soft.Also keep in mind wraps with stiffen a shaft in my experience also.
Cheers KIM

[Nephew]

I agree, Kim, that's the same method I use.

[longbow steve]

I don't know, Steve. I bare shaft tune Gamegetters for my Gringa longbow and I wont fletch them until I've got them hitting the target straight first. I use the 400s with 175 grn points on a 57 # @ 28" bow and I find they are best, for me, at 29.5 ". Having said that, I am a bit of a pedant with the gear ( since I went away with Rod and Jeff and saw how they are with their gear, although neither bare shaft tune to my knowledge. I was pretty slack before that through ignorance. ) and I reckon these your using will be fine for you, Dodger, once fletched.

MMM, I have never worried about it, going from advice I have read regarding bareshafting. Maybe I can get better tune . My understanding would be that the arrow is fish tailing without fletch to stabilise so will show the nock one way or another at a set distance and will change when you alter length or distance you are shooting from or point weight, Brace height etc? Thus the advice from OL Adcock not to worry about it as it is irrelevant?

paradox.jpg (13.72 KiB) Viewed 5512 times

Diagram from OL's page
GrahameA may be able to share his thoughts?
Steve

[Nephew]

Crikey mate, you've got me there! I really don't know why it works, I just followed advice Axe had put up regarding woods and it worked for me with carbons and aluminiums too, Bud. I just start with 'em way too long (and soft) stand 10 meters from the butte, try it out, then start taking 5mm off the point end (nock end has inserts with GG's) at a time until it ends up shooting into the butte straight. I know you're supposed to watch how they fly but I can rarely make 'em out so have to rely on nock direction in the target. Now you've got me wondering if I've been doing the wrong thing out of ignorance all along!
I can't make any comment on anything from the Adcock site as lets face it...I'm still a relative beginner compared with the folk that would have written that. I can be silly, but I like to imagine I'm not flat out foolish, Steve, and for me to criticise that advice would be very foolish indeed, yeah? !
I have an idea it may be the amount of fishtailing involved, but this is just semi-educated guessing. Like, if it's too soft it will fishtail quite a lot and this makes the arrow want to arc right, and if too stiff, not fishtail enough and this makes it want to arc left, thus leaving it nock left in the butte. So, perhaps bare shaft tuning is really adjusting the amount of fishtail when first released?
Yeah, Grahame, can you shed any light on this for us?
Quick mate, before Steve lobs on my doorstep with a base-ball bat!!

[kimall]

If you look at the fishtailing pics you will see the nock and point move back and forth but the center of the arrow stays in line if the arrow is spined right but if the arrow is soft it will not recover prop if a bare shaft and you can shoot that soft arrow at longer distances and you will get to see the arrow flight better.
Cheers KIM

[longbow steve]

Quick mate, before Steve lobs on my doorstep with a base-ball bat!!

To late i am coming . It may be time I revisit the butt and do some tuning/observing . Steve

[GrahameA]

Hi Craig

Yeah, Grahame, can you shed any light on this for us?

Assuming you have the arrow spine somewhere near correct.

Go back and read all the posts where I have talked about the natural frequency of shafts.

To see what is happening get a ruler and hold it on the edge of the desk with a lot of overhang, flick it abd what it vibrate. Then shorten the overhang and do it again - it will vibrate faster. It is the same for the arrows as you make them shorter they will vibrate faster.

What most people want is the arrow coming out of the bow straight and that is related to the natural frequency of the shaft. The stiffer they are the faster they vibrate So if they are a tad soft you can fine tune the shaft by adjusting its length.

I know you're supposed to watch how they fly but I can rarely make 'em out so have to rely on nock direction in the target.

What you do is paper tune them whereby you shoot them through a frame which has a sheet of paper in it. The shape and the direction of the tears will tell you what is happening.

Here you go - Print it out, have a read and keep it for future reference. http://www.eastonarchery.com/pdf/tuning_guide.pdf

[Stickbow Hunter]

I mostly stay out of threads like this as I can't see the sense in cutting arras to different lengths to get them to fly right. I must be different as I want my arras to be the length I want them to be and still fly right. I simply find what spine arra flys right at the length I want and go shoot it. I have shot many different bows and arra weights over the years and I simply have never had the problems that a lot of people on here talk about. I don't seem to have problems with arra flight and in fact over the years many people have commented on how well my arras fly - that doesn't mean they always go where I want them to but that is my fault not the arras.

Jeff

[Dodger]

Jeff, with good consistent form and fletched arrows that are reasonably well spined, the arrows would fly straight. However, being a novice, I would like my arrows to be as forgiving as possible and hence the exercise of bare shaft tuning.
Thanks everyone for your replies and I may have another bash at bare shaft tuning in the coming year but only after I receive my new bow strings.

Dodger.

[GrahameA]

Morning All

... I simply find what spine arra flys right at the length I want and go shoot it.

Yep. The downside is that it requires that the archer be consistent in their style/release. That is a challenge for many Archers early in their quest.

A couple of suggestions - and feel free to ignore them.

* As long as your arrows are someone near correct fletch them with large fletches and shoot them. They will be close enough for short ranges.

* Get (or make up) a set of shafts of different spine values and test them. Choose the one that flies best and build or buy a set of those arrows.

[Nephew]

Here's a tip Al Kidner once wrote in an article- Once you've found the right aluminium shaft for you, check it on a spine gauge and then you'll have the correct spine for your woods, too.

[Gringa Bows]

the way i see it is,if your not shooting with consistant form it wont matter what arrow you use its not going to fly right,with or without feathers.

[Roadie]

I"M with Rod on this one. Cheers Roadie.

[Nephew]

the way i see it is,if your not shooting with consistant form it wont matter what arrow you use its not going to fly right,with or without feathers.

No doubt, you can't argue with that! I'm assuming there is no problem with form, but I would still imagine that no matter how much talent you have in the beginning, if you don't have a set of matched, spined arrows you wont shoot well and it will be discouraging, yeah? This is a genuine question, not an argument, I defer to you on all archery issues, matey.

[Stickbow Hunter]

but I would still imagine that no matter how much talent you have in the beginning, if you don't have a set of matched, spined arrows you wont shoot well and it will be discouraging, yeah?

Yes mate that is correct; your arrows need to match your bow no question about that. What I don't understand is people having different sets of arrows at all different lengths. I mean if you shoot your cabons at 28" back of point, woods at 29" and aluminiums at 28.5", another set of woods at 28" etc; that just doesn't make sense to me. Why not settle on an arrow that is the length you want and use only arrows that length and then try different spined arrows at that length until you get the spine arrow that flys right and then stick to it? Of course that is just my opinion.

Jeff

[Nephew]

Ah! I see what your saying, Ok, I'll give it a shot!