Arrow Lengths and Aiming Points

[Brumbies Country]

Just thought I'd canvass ideas out there re aiming points and arrow length. Because I shoot relatively light bows (40-45lbs) I've been obsessed by arrow weight and along with that I figured that a short to draw length arrow had potential to provide a draw length determinant ie when the point came into contact with the index figer of the bow hand. Unfortunately I've not capitalised on that because I've had a tendency to snap shoot shorter targets .

With self bows of the above weight my point of aim with Med release, and an under the cheekbone, fletch touching top lip anchor the point on is 30-35m. I therefore dont have a gap so far under the aiming point at shorter distances as I would with a fibreglass laminate bow. Even so lately I've been playing round with arrows a bit longer. They reduce the gap under on the shorter targets and therefore I feel, the margin for error. On an ABA course around 60% of the targets my point of aim would be lower than the A zone on the animal but a higher percentage for bows with more speed. For AA around 75% of the longbow targets would be below my point on; a higher percentage with a fibre glaslaminate bow. 3DAAA max is arround 30m.

Does this longer arrow speculation of mine make any sense or is it a load of cobblers? I guess the rider to this is that the increased weight that comes with a longer arrow will be heavier and this will result in more error on the longer targets. But given the percentage of relatively shorter targets on each of the field competition disciplines is it worth considering?

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

The theory appears to be correct ,on the surface. Crunch the numbers and see just what the differences would be and test them.

IMHO the potential gain may be offset by a greater potential error.

eg. With a short arrow and using the arrow tip as a means of controlling draw length you are reducing the the error in the arrow velocity. So what would the variation in the point of impact with variation of plus/minus 3mm? As you make the arrow longer the spread ma to min of the arrow mass and spine will increase, unless you fine tune the arrows back to a central weight, which will increase the size of the group.

So the question now becomes which method produces the optimum result.

Does that make sense?

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Simon.

The theory appears to be correct ,on the surface. Crunch the numbers and see just what the differences would be and test them.

IMHO the potential gain may be offset by a greater potential error.

eg. With a short arrow and using the arrow tip as a means of controlling draw length you are reducing the the error in the arrow velocity. So what would the variation in the point of impact with variation of plus/minus 3mm? As you make the arrow longer the spread ma to min of the arrow mass and spine will increase, unless you fine tune the arrows back to a central weight, which will increase the size of the group.

So the question now becomes which method produces the optimum result.

Does that make sense?

That does make sense Grahame. The numbers crunching would suggest to me thayt if this works I might have potential for higher scoring in so much as the majority of targets aiming point is below point on.

Without the draw check effect of the point,he 3mm or so difference in draw length will have an effect on arrow velocity. One of the things that made me think a bit more about this was that I do have trouble feeling the smooth point with the index finger and looking at it tends to creat an error of its own, in so much as your vision wanders forward and back from the target. In theory if you have constantly consistent primary and seconday anchor points and or confidence in constant back tension, a good archer might be able to rely on these alternatives re constant draw length, therefore not relying on constant point position.

I take your point re re-configuring arrow balance.

Simon

[longbowinfected]

I have played with this one a fair bit Simon.
Longer arrows are certainly easier to aim but harder to guage draw check.
I even tried shooting shorter arrows to see if there was less energy therefore shorter point on distances but bent elbows on the bow arm are disastrous.
I started to lay with string walking on a lower poundage bare recurve because of my illness and thought if the string walking changed the flight so to a change in point mass.

I decided that having the begining of the arrow point on my radiated arrow shelf worked the best for draw checking.

In a similar vein I played around with different point weights on one of my lower poundage longbows as I got tired easily holding up my old Hoyt Medallist recurve. I also got sick of using low poundage limbs with Dacron strings pretty quickly.

I had not shot alloys for about a year.

Using Easton X7 alloys cut at 27.5 inches sans points weighing around 260 grains for an underchin Mediterranean loose with a 43 pound draw weight I did learn though that I could use the same arrow point on the gold aim point for FITA Fremantle long distance target by using 145 grain screw in points at 60 metres and 250 grain points at 50 metres. This on a 122cm face.
When I got to the shorter distances I used an aiming point half way up my sight window, underchin Mediterranean loose. The same aimimg point was good on an 80cm target face using 175 grain points at 40 metres and 250 grain points at 30 metres.

Considering that face walking and stringalking are not allowed by AA this method was legal and required only two aiming points. There is nothing stopping anyone from using screw in points on timber arrows using Three Rivers screw in adapters. Then you match weght and spine from your alloys to your timbers and you can even swap blunts and broadheads of the same mass with minimal change in aiming points.

Go to clout and use lighter than 125 grain heads.

Kev

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Kevin

That's good feedback and ingenious use of point weight variation to cope with the set target distances relevant to Archery Australia target distances.

I'm experimenting with methods that might get me better scores over an ABA course with unmarked distances, 7m rabbit one target, 48m buffalo the next, 28m goat the next. Need to revisit the rules but I'm pretty confident you are stuck with the points that are on your arrows at bow inspection.

You mentioned string walking. That's poses all sorts of interesting variable mechanics questions distance to distance, but a very interesting approach to have a go at with a recurve.

Simon

[longbowinfected]

I wish we were allowed to shoot three fingers under and string walk. That would work up to 35 yards/metres then face walk longer distances..... it is natural, anyone can learn to do it and longbowers would be capable of getting much more consistency / higher scores. With string walking the advantage is that the arrow point is on the target at each distance.

Kev.

[alaninoz]

Simon:

It's more restrictive again. From the general rules for (ABA as against IFAA) barebow:

"e) All arrows used shall be identical in length, weight, diameter, fletchings and nocks, without regard to colour and allowance for wear."

and from the definitions part for "traditional longbows":

"g) Arrows shall be wooden shafted. Fletched with feathers, and must be of the same length fletch and pile, with due allowance for wear and tear. The arrow must be free of any marks or blemishes that can be used as sighting aids. If the bow weighs over 50 pounds of draw weight (at the archers draw length ) then the arrows shall carry at least 12 inches of fletching and have a point of at least 125 grains weight."

So not only can't you change the point weight during a round, you use arrows with differing point weights in a round.

I'm not sure this is true for IFAA though. I'll have to dig more deeply to discover where I read about this.

[alaninoz]

That didn't take as long as I thought. IFAA is different. From the clarifications to the longbow bow style:

"Question: Is the same weight for the point to be used by one archer during one day of competition?
Answer: The longbow rule (g) states that “any weight of pile may be used”. That means that if a longbow archer has 24 arrows for the tournament. He may have 24 piles of different weigh, even though they have to have a similar look."

Now how "similar" they have to be in "similar look" is a question I can't answer.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Brumbies,

Basic ballistics involved here. With everything else equal (drawlength, arrowmass, fletch size, anchor, arrow spine, etc.) any overhang in the arrow past the back of the bow has the effect of lowering the front sight (to put it in firearms terms) and therefore lowering the strike point of the arrow. A shorter arrow will have the reverse effect.

In archery terms, if you use the champfer of the field point or the back of the broadhead as a draw check to keep a consistent length, you will reduce your arrow velocity variation and your cast will be more consistent. But this advantage is offset by the sight picture effect of raising your 'frontsight' and raising your strike point especially at closer ranges under 25 - 30m.

If you can shoot point of aim using the arrow tip as a front sight, try the above at several distances by putting the arrow tip on an intended strike point using an arrow overhanging say, 3 inches and another which is made to exactly your draw length with absolutely no overhang. It will be hard, but try to keep the arrow masses very similar and spine the longer arrow perhaps another 10 - 15lbs stiffer than the shorter arrow. That will even out the dynamic spine pretty much.

You will see pretty quickly that the longer arrow will strike lower and the shorter arrow strike higher. I used to do a lot of this kind of testing in my early days because of my interest in exterior ballistics.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Kev,Alan and Dennis

I tried to reply yesterday while waiting for an anaesthetic for a diagnostic test. Some how I couldn't get the reply back via my I phone, but great to be be able to read though archery advice at that sort of time.

Kev, re facewalking I've played round with it a bit. With a light 34lb recurve no problems and interesting the results. With a 45lb longbow I can move up and down a little below the cheekbone, but I cant anchor full draw with the under the chin anchor you use. Obviously some slight variation in muscle action that I'd need to adjust to over time.

Thanks for doing that search Alan. I thought the ABA rules were set in concrete but very interesting the information you gathered re IFAA rules. I know the IFAA rules for longbow and Historic bow don't preclude face walking. You won't get to see this until you return but I hope the Tumut shoot is going well. Still hoping to make it for the 3D tomorrow.

Dennis, thank you for those words of wisdom. That ballistics logic does make a lot of sense and certainly the shorter arrow does have the advantage of acting as a draw check. I'm going to play around with your suggestions today. Seems like everytime I think of something to experiment with re shooting a longbow, you've already done it and have the runs on the board.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

Add this to your store of knowledge.

If you shooting off a cheap plastic Hoyt rest or equivalent (as in Barebow) and your arrows are cut to the right length and the point is slightly proud then the hook on the arrow rest will start to move as the head touches it. A very effective draw check.

If you are considering stringwalking - learn to count serving windings. you can get very accurate positioning that way.

Watching a good barebow shooter is a lesson in using sights when there are no sights.

[longbowinfected]

Yes Grahame, it is a joke that they can use their no sights so accurately, get much higher scores. Longbow would be a lot sexier score wise if we were allowed to have no sights like them. In AA/FITA I think the barebow recurvers are allowed to put evenly spaced markings on their tabs and they may be allowed to carry aiming memorabilia yet longbowers are not allowed any assistance, not even sighting memorabilia.

End of rant.

Kev

[GrahameA]

Hi Kevin.

In AA/FITA I think the barebow recurvers are allowed to put evenly spaced markings on their tabs

No. However if you choose your Tab well then you will select something that has nice regular stitching.

I have nil issues with the rues and they way they are written. The challenge is for the Archer to read and understand the rules and what they allow do not allow.

Sooner or later you will see longbows with heavy risers. Think about it.

[longbowinfected]

Grahame if you make your own tab or ammend an existing one placing rivets exactly 5mm apart there is nothing that can be done about it.

My tired old eyes and short fingernails have great difficulty seeing/feeling/counting stitches on tabs or turns in serving but shiny polished rivets work.

Kev

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Kevin.

In AA/FITA I think the barebow recurvers are allowed to put evenly spaced markings on their tabs

No. However if you choose your Tab well then you will select something that has nice regular stitching.

I have nil issues with the rues and they way they are written. The challenge is for the Archer to read and understand the rules and what they allow do not allow.

Sooner or later you will see longbows with heavy risers. Think about it.

To watch people like Mick Turner and Mick Fisher shooting plus 300 string walking barebow recurve all the while stringwalking is poetry in motion. That Mick Fisher came back to BB recurve only earlier this year after shooting sighted recurve at a national standard speaks volumes for form. The sighting is mechanism is good but high scores also rely on form

Grahame, yes I reckon its mostly dependant on stitching. Spigarelli make a BB tab. Has stitches but also the letters down the tab, BAREBOW, are spaced for stategic use.

I have just had a stout on an empty stomach and thinking is possibly clouded; the added weight of a longbow riser adds stability. Just wondered if you were also thinking of something else?

[longbowinfected]

I can just see it now.
thick heavy set reverse handle thumb hole pistol grip longbows with lots of ebony in the riser section....I am as much in the dark here as you Simon.....hey I still shoot a flat laid boo/glass bow.

Kev

[dmm]

Interesting thread, and I have only one comment that hasn't been raised.
Surely your anchor point is the appropriate mechanism to obtain a consistant draw length, not the arrow length.

I recently attended a Rod Jenkins archery clinic, and it really made me reconsider my previous corner of the mouth anchor point, in favour of something which isn't soft tissue, and is where my natural alignment says full draw is, rather than simply a comon point of reference, like the mouth.

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

I have just had a stout on an empty stomach and thinking is possibly clouded; the added weight of a longbow riser adds stability. Just wondered if you were also thinking of something else?

Riser mass will give you a riser that is more "stable". It is all down to Inertia - these day we achieve the same (and better) by using stabilisers. The downside is you have a bow that is physically heavier to carry around.

It is a bit like Audi and the rally rules. If you sit back and look at "the rules" and then design the bow to take into account "the rules" you come to a slightly different conclusion. Check out the Hoyt Pro-Medallists as an example or Black Widows.

DMM

Surely your anchor point is the appropriate mechanism to obtain a consistant draw length, not the arrow length.

A consistent anchor point gives you a consistent anchor point - it does not give a consistent draw length.

As an example - grab you bow an arrow and draw as you normally would. Then "squeeze you back muscles/scapula together and the the arrow will draw longer. Slouch your shoulders a bit and the draw length will drop.

Good consistent form helps to eliminate these issue. You need to have all elements working together and consistently together.

[Brumbies Country]

Fair enough, Grahame. Have to say my Historic bows, ELB's and American Indian type flatbows, are really light and not sure I can do alot about that. Some of the American Indian Bows you see in TBBs are thick round the handle but somehow that doesn't fit in well with a small hand.