What makes a good trad shoot photo?

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Mick Smith
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What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#1 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:30 pm

I'm not qualified to answer that question, as I'm only a very ordinary photographer. I do try, but my results are inconsistent.

Perhaps we could do with some tips from our better photographers, if they're willing to chime in. Just some hard and fast rules perhaps, that will make our photos more interesting and professional looking.

I have a few ideas, but I'm afraid they will be shot down in smoke, so I'll keep them to myself for the time being. :wink:

I could certainly use some guidance.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#2 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:42 pm

What makes a good trad shoot photo?
That is a hard one to answer Mick. What looks great to one person will look ordinary to another. However you wanted some tips on making better photos so I will start off with this one.

Always ensure your subject is in focus.

Jeff

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#3 Post by Mick Smith » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:55 pm

That's a good start Jeff.

I've often noticed that the subject of interest in a photograph is often too small in relation to the rest of it. This is often true of photographs of equipment. You get to see too much of the scenery surrounding the subject of interest, but not enough detail what's important. I would suggest, you either get up a lot closer to your subject for the shot, or use the cropping feature in photo shop to eliminate much of the background, thereby highlighting the intended focus of interest of the shot.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#4 Post by little arrows » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:27 pm

as Jeff said Mick, everyone's idea is different. Try to please everyone, and you'll just let yourself down. You shoot what YOU want to capture. That is the only tip I can give you, I am not a very good photographer (although I do good macro shots)
It's like walking through an art gallery - not all the artists are going to appeal to you, are they.
I guess for the record, I prefer the, behind archer to target photo. :smile:

cheers
sue

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#5 Post by GrahameA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:55 am

Morning Mick.

Consider this, are you asking several questions and are you asking what seems like a simple question yet is actually quite complex?

What makes a good photo:
a)Technically
b)Artistically?

If a photo is technically "good" and artistically acceptable then "What makes a good Trad Shoot Photo"?

What are you interested in (What is the subject) the surroundings, the people, the ......??

It is unlikely that everyone will agree that a particular photo is 'good'/'the best' however, it is possible to get a consensus of opinion that a particular 'whatever' is acceptable or not (the best on the day) - Judges/Examiners resolve this issue on a whole range of things/events thousands of times everyday.

So, perhaps, an easier answer is to ask, "What photos do you like", and "Why do you like them"? Then in a moment of insanity you could list the reasons why you like those photos and ask others if they are the important things and if they agree then make your photos replicate those things. You could even take photos, post them and get people to critique them - be warned that the comments you get may not make any sense.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#6 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:47 am

Good morning Grahame

Yes, everything you've said is true. In the final wash, it all comes down to personal preferences and taste. Although, I think you would find that the work of a professional photographer, using the very best equipment would be superior in minds of most viewers, to a few snaps taken by someone like myself on my little cheap point and shoot camera. So, I believe that equipment is one way that one might achieve a better finished product. A sound knowledge of what makes a good photo in general is something that might even go further towards achieving the desired results.

I don't know much about photography, but I do know that it can be very complex indeed. I believe there are some basic rules that go a long way towards making a better photo. Rules like, you should never have the horizon in the centre of your photo, but rather the photo should be divided into three parts, with the horizon dividing one of those parts. There is a certain balance and symmetry required with the composition of what is generally termed as being a good photo.

If you hired a professional photographer to cover a 3D shoot, the photos would almost certainly be of an excellent quality, but would we, as archers, find them to be as interesting as they could be? Unless the professional photographer was also a keen 3D shooter, I somehow doubt it.

In my mind equipment definitely comes into the equation. Point and shoot cameras are very convenient, but compared to a good SLR they're just not in the race. My little point and shoot camera seems to make distant objects seem to be much further away than what they actually are. This aspect alone makes the classic 'over the archer's shoulder' shot look absurd, as the target is barely visible, when in fact it's only 20 or 30 meters away.

I took a few photos at the recent Lilydale shoot that I thought were going to be quite artistic. I used intervening shrubbery to frame the archer in the shot, only to find that my camera focussed on the shrubbery and not on the archer, leaving the archer as a blurry blob.

Although my little camera might not take the best photos, it is certainly convenient for taking a few snaps. Not only is it very compact, it's also waterproof down to 3 metres, so that makes it something less I have to worry about, particularly when it's wet.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#7 Post by GrahameA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:08 pm

Hi Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:... Although, I think you would find that the work of a professional photographer, using the very best equipment would be superior ...
No necessarily.
Mick Smith wrote:... If you hired a professional photographer to cover a 3D shoot, the photos would almost certainly be of an excellent quality, but would we, as archers, find them to be as interesting as they could be? Unless the professional photographer was also a keen 3D shooter, I somehow doubt it. ...
Perhaps. Taking good photos of Archery is a challenge.
Mick Smith wrote:... Point and shoot cameras are very convenient, but compared to a good SLR they're just not in the race. My little point and shoot camera seems to make distant objects seem to be much further away than what they actually are. This aspect alone makes the classic 'over the archer's shoulder' shot look absurd, as the target is barely visible, when in fact it's only 20 or 30 meters away. ...
Experience suggests that even if some people had the best of equipment the results would not improve.

An example of the difference between people. When I shoot photos I shoot both a high resolution jpeg and a RAW as my camera allows me. Irrespective how many people would take RAW images as that means they then have to do some work with the image.
Mick Smith wrote:... I took a few photos at the recent Lilydale shoot that I thought were going to be quite artistic. I used intervening shrubbery to frame the archer in the shot, only to find that my camera focussed on the shrubbery and not on the archer, leaving the archer as a blurry blob. ...
Now you know the issue work out how to get the Archer in focus and the shrubbery blurred.

Here you go Archer in focus, background not and it was set up to look like that from the start. I could have blurred the background if I wanted to in the Digital Darkroom ... would have taken a few minutes. (And it helps not to post small photos.) If I was really keen I would vignette the image a bit. To go from the original to the final product took less than 30secs and since I was going to upload the photo I needed to resize it any way.
Img_0545.jpg
Img_0545.jpg (29.71 KiB) Viewed 11985 times
A similar image but some vignetting. Less than a minute total to do.
Img_0545vig.jpg
Img_0545vig.jpg (31.9 KiB) Viewed 11982 times
Last edited by GrahameA on Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#8 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:29 pm

GrahameA wrote:Here you go Archer in focus, background not and it was set up to look like that from the start.
You could at least use a Trad Archer for the subject Grahame. :wink:

Jeff

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#9 Post by GrahameA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:34 pm

Stickbow Hunter wrote:
GrahameA wrote:Here you go Archer in focus, background not and it was set up to look like that from the start.
You could at least use a Trad Archer for the subject Grahame. :wink:
Perhaps next time.....
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#10 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:42 pm

GrahameA wrote:Perhaps next time.....
Well it is a Trad forum.

Jeff

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#11 Post by GrahameA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:55 pm

Hi Mick.

Here are a few other things to consider.

* If you are posting photos to a website eg OzBow you are limited to images that are 1000 pixel across. Thus you will need to resize. If you have to resize them you may be able to crop them.
* If you are putting stuff on the web then most screens being a landscape shape it make sense to post landscape images.
* Think about what you are trying to convey before you take the photo.
* If you have taken the trouble to take the photo in the first place then why not spend a few seconds more to show the best image you can.

So just for you considering things here are some photos that Brad took at the Hinterland shoot (and I prepared for here). Note As part of resizing them I have added a 5 pixel black border and compressed the jpeg image to decrease the file size. I would not use the images as shown here to print photos but for displaying on the web they are okay. For prints you want files that are optimised for the final print size.

The is a classic over the shoulder shot that you like. If you are trying to give the impression of distance then Landscape format may be a better choice - but is still messy.
Dsc_0885ozb.jpg
Dsc_0885ozb.jpg (50.24 KiB) Viewed 11970 times
Archer in action. Note the shruberry in the foreground does not detract from the archer. Note also the archer is offset from the centre.
Dsc_0930ozb.jpg
Dsc_0930ozb.jpg (57.18 KiB) Viewed 11970 times
Just because a photo lacks a bit out of the camera does not mean you have to use it like that. You can crop images.

So this is the original - just resized to comply with the sizing limitations.
Dsc_0933a.jpg
Dsc_0933a.jpg (35.55 KiB) Viewed 11970 times
.

And this is after a bit of cropping and thought. Note. The foreground is blurred and the archer is in focus which is what you wanted. The tree trunks frame the subject, i.e. the archer. (The more pixels you start off with the more you can throw away).
Dsc_0933crop.jpg
Dsc_0933crop.jpg (35.69 KiB) Viewed 11970 times
Final thought. What would you rather get and see. A 1000 mediocre photos or just one great photo.
Grahame.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#12 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:12 pm

You've certainly got some nice shots there Grahame. I do like the 'over the shoulder' shot. The one you've taken is just about perfect. The only thing that might make it better, would to be able to see the arrow in flight, particularly just before it hit the highest scoring zone. The 3D target looks nice and close, like it probably is.

I have a new computer with new software. As far as I can tell, my new software doesn't allow me to crop my photos like my old one did. This limits my ability to post up quality photos. I'll have to investigate the matter further.

I suppose taking good pictures is a bit like catching bream. I'd much rather catch just one 50cm plus bream than a 1000 undersized ones. I will catch one, one day. I've gone close.

I have owned a series of excellent SLR cameras for most of my life. I still own one, but unfortunately it's now redundant as it's an old film one. I know just how good they can be and I know they're much, much better than point and shoot cameras in almost every respect. You have actually started me thinking now that I might need a new SLR.

Thanks also for the other tips you've provided, such as not centring the subject, especially a subject like an archer about to take a shot. It makes it more interesting to be able to see more of where the centre of attention is focussed, ie the area towards the target.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#13 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:37 pm

little arrows wrote:as Jeff said Mick, everyone's idea is different. Try to please everyone, and you'll just let yourself down. You shoot what YOU want to capture. That is the only tip I can give you, I am not a very good photographer (although I do good macro shots)
It's like walking through an art gallery - not all the artists are going to appeal to you, are they.
I guess for the record, I prefer the, behind archer to target photo. :smile:

cheers
sue
Thanks Sue. I was reading though your post again and I've decided it's very insightful. Like a true artist, you must undo the shackles of convention and do your own thing. It's a bit like actually shooting in a trad shoot, you simply concentrate on what you're doing while ensuring that you have good fun in the process. The results are just numbers on paper. It's liberating in a way.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#14 Post by GrahameA » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:46 am

Hi Mick.

My view of SLR's is this: 'You are not buying a camera you are buying a lens system'. I would like to say that is an original thought from me but it's . I read it in a book many years ago.

So if you decide to lash out on DSLR it may be a wiser/smarter move to consider the lens you want first then choose a camera.

A couple of links to read:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/956670 ... f=mainmenu

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/343817 ... f=mainmenu
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#15 Post by greybeard » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:16 pm

Mick Smith wrote:.....My little point and shoot camera seems to make distant objects seem to be much further away than what they actually are. This aspect alone makes the classic 'over the archer's shoulder' shot look absurd, as the target is barely visible, when in fact it's only 20 or 30 meters away.....
Mick, my Samsung S85 is a basic point and shoot camera and has features that I have never used. I am sure most of these types of cameras have a variety of options built into their program.

Basically I have a throw away camera to use in a dusty workshop.

Sitting in my workshop; the camera was set on auto for the following photos with optical zoom being used on the second and third photos. As a matter of interest the fence is 30 meters from the camera and the plastic pot another 25 meters.

The plastic pot is the small blob above the corner of the boot lid.
Auto -  Normal .JPG
Auto - Normal .JPG (186.34 KiB) Viewed 11908 times
Auto - Optical Zoom x 2-5.JPG
Auto - Optical Zoom x 2-5.JPG (184.7 KiB) Viewed 11908 times
Auto -  Optical Zoom x 5.JPG
Auto - Optical Zoom x 5.JPG (174.55 KiB) Viewed 11908 times
I must admit I had a bit of trouble holding the camera steady for the x 5 zoom photo.

Yes, the photos are a bit ordinary but what price are you willing to pay for the photographic equipment to attain the standards you require.

I used 2003 Microsoft Office Picture Manager to adjust the photos.

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#16 Post by GrahameA » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:42 am

Hi Daryl.

IMO You get great photos from that camera. The issues are not really a problem for the work you do with it.

Plus you have mastered cropping. :shock:
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#17 Post by Mick Smith » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:02 pm

My little point and shoot camera might even be the same as yours Daryl. It's a Samsung, but I can't see any model identification written on it. It's a waterproof one. Your post prompted me to have a play with it and low and behold, it also has a zoom feature which could turn out to be very handy for those 'over the shoulder' shots. I'm so used to just using it as a point and shoot camera, I forgot that it might be capable of doing more. I have used its macro feature a few times though, to take some crisp ultra close up shots. Come to think of it, it probably does have a whole plethora of features that I don't know about. It has buttons that I've never used.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#18 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:52 am

I've been investigating all the possibilities that my photo editing program offers. It's called Intelli-studio and it came with my Samsung camera. It turns out that it does have a very primitive photo cropping application. It's difficult to use, but it is there.

With the addition of my new found ability to take zoom shots with my point and shoot camera and then being able to crop my photos, I think you will find that my next batch of shoot photos will be more interesting and informative. It's a pity I'll have to wait so long before the next shoot though.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#19 Post by GrahameA » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:53 am

Hi Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:I've been investigating all the possibilities .....
A few years ago I purchased a copy of PaintShop Pro V3. Then a few months later I purchased a copy of PSP V4. Since I have purchased a few more copies - currently I have PSP V7 loaded. I would say that I am a very happy user of the product and would recommend it to anyone.

I first started using Photoshop when it first came out and I have a copy of CS2 as the latest iteration which is where I stopped. There is a limit to how much you use stuff. However, I do have a copy of Photoshop Elements 7.0 (purchased it as a double pack along with Premiere Elements) and it is an overkill for the stuff I do.

If you want to do things simply then PSP is a great choice. If you want to use Photoshop, an outstanding application, and don't mind putting a few hours into learning it Photoshop is outstanding/staggering. Just as an aside when I first started with Photshop I gave up with it and enrolled myself at the local TAFE on a Photoshop Course - one of the smartest moves I ever did.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#20 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:23 pm

GrahameA wrote:
* If you are posting photos to a website eg OzBow you are limited to images that are 1000 pixel across. Thus you will need to resize. If you have to resize them you may be able to crop them.
* If you are putting stuff on the web then most screens being a landscape shape it make sense to post landscape images.
* Think about what you are trying to convey before you take the photo.
* If you have taken the trouble to take the photo in the first place then why not spend a few seconds more to show the best image you can.
Hi Grahame,

I've been playing around with my photos in my Intelli-studio progam to see how I can use its various applications to make some of my photos more interesting. I have managed to expand some of my photos and then I was able to crop the section of interest. I ended up with an acceptable 'over the shoulder' shot by doing so. The target was in plain view, whereas it wasn't previously.

I wanted to show off my new found abilities with a couple of 'before and after' shot comparisons, but I ran into some difficulties.

You mention above that we are limited here at Ozbow to photos that have a maximum of 1000 pixels across the top, in a landscape type shot. I resized my altered photos to these dimensions, but they weren't allowed, as they were too big. I've struck this many times before. In fact, to post my photos of the Lilydale shoot I had to reduce the number of pixels across to 500 before they were accepted. The result is a photo that looks miserably small in comparison to other photos I've seen on Ozbow.

Is there something I'm doing wrong. On the 'post a reply' Ozbow screen, I arrow down to the 'upload attachment' part of the screen. Where it says 'Filename' I hit the 'Browse' button and then I select the photo I want from my computer. The trouble is, it won't accept anything with more than 500 pixels across. Obviously I must be doing something wrong, as I've seen numerous large photos on Ozbow in the past. It seems a pity to go to all the effort of improving my photos when it's all negated by only being able to post up tiny images.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#21 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:49 pm

Re the above ...

I've gone right down to 600 x 617 in pixels, which is quite small, yet it comes up with "The file is too big, maximum allowed size is 200 Kib.".

Now I'm beginning to understand why people don't post their photos of shoots on Ozbow anymore. It's too difficult.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#22 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:01 pm

Okay, here's the best I can do. The images are only 500 pixels across, but you might still be able to see the differences my tampering with this photo has made. It doesn't help that the target is in deep shade, but hopefully you will be able to see an improved result.
Attachments
SAM_0368_Converted.JPG
SAM_0368_Converted.JPG (144.77 KiB) Viewed 11836 times
SAM_0368_Converted_0001_Converted_0003.JPG
SAM_0368_Converted_0001_Converted_0003.JPG (161.65 KiB) Viewed 11836 times
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#23 Post by GrahameA » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:21 pm

Hi Mick.

Why 500 pixels? Why did you crop square?
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#24 Post by greybeard » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:24 pm

Hi Mick,

Apart from cropping and resizing the image it may still need to be compressed to be under 200kbs.

Below is a link to a recent post GrahameA submitted.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=15036

I do not know if there is any free software on the net that will allow you to compress photos.

Congratulations on your first attempt.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#25 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:58 pm

GrahameA wrote:Hi Mick.

Why 500 pixels? Why did you crop square?
Hi Grahame

I tried to post photos ranging from 1000 to 600 pixels wide, but they were rejected by Ozbow as they were too big. It appears that I am limited to posting photos that less than 600 pixels wide. I don't have the ability to compress my photos. I can only resize them. I don't know how you blokes manage to post up nice big photos.

I cropped that particular picture in a square shape as that was the shape I needed in order to capture the essence of what I was trying to convey.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#26 Post by Mick Smith » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:03 pm

greybeard wrote:Hi Mick,

Apart from cropping and resizing the image it may still need to be compressed to be under 200kbs.

Below is a link to a recent post GrahameA submitted.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=15036

I do not know if there is any free software on the net that will allow you to compress photos.

Congratulations on your first attempt.

Daryl.


Hi Daryl

Did you compress the photos that you posted earlier on this thread? They appear to be considerably larger than mine, yet they're still under 200kbs.

It wasn't actually my first attempt. I had good software on my last computer that allowed my to do a lot more than what I can do now with my new computer and my new software. I used to crop my photos all the time. This was my first attempt with my new software though.
There is no use focusing on aiming if you don't execute the shot well enough to hit what your are aiming at.

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Trad Bound
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#27 Post by Trad Bound » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:35 pm

Hi Gents
Been watching with interest maybe the next Trad Shoot should hold a photographic session or exhibition. I understand there are a few photo buffs here lets have an virtual exhibition.

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greybeard
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#28 Post by greybeard » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:41 pm

Mick Smith wrote: Did you compress the photos that you posted earlier on this thread? They appear to be considerably larger than mine, yet they're still under 200kbs.
Mick,

Yes, they were compressed and cropped using Microsoft Office picture Manager. At times [second photo un cropped] I use Microsoft Publisher in the compression process.
SSN851629 - Crop.JPG
SSN851629 - Crop.JPG (198.66 KiB) Viewed 11789 times
Compressed Picture1 x2-5 Zoom In Publisher.jpg
Compressed Picture1 x2-5 Zoom In Publisher.jpg (189.04 KiB) Viewed 11789 times
Sometimes I will use Paint Shop Pro 8 or Adobe Photoshop Professional 7.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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GrahameA
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#29 Post by GrahameA » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:34 am

Hi Mick.
Mick Smith wrote:I cropped that particular picture in a square shape as that was the shape I needed in order to capture the essence of what I was trying to convey.
I would have cropped it differently.

980 pixels across and 54kB. I had to enlarge it to get it that big and it did not come back smoothly as I did it quick.
mick.jpg
mick.jpg (53.04 KiB) Viewed 11782 times
Grahame.
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Re: What makes a good trad shoot photo?

#30 Post by Scrub Bull » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:31 am

If you want some good software to play with and its free try GIMP.
http://www.gimp.org/
I warn you that you will be on a steep learning curve. :shock:
It does most things and a lot more. Ive been using it for years and only use about 5% of it, still haven't worked out the other 95%, need more time to play.
Archery is a simple game, it's the mind that over complicates it.
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