'Tough' Cameras

[DylanK]

Hey All

Hope you all had a good Christmas.

I would like to know the opinions of people who have far more experience in the world of photography than myself.

These 'Tough' new compact cameras that on the market, such as the olympus 3000, the 8010, the panasonic Tf2?, are they worth the money? Like most of us here, I am an outdoor type of guy who goes on the occasional hunt (not nearly as much as we'd like to), the occasional fish, kayak, mountain bike ride etc, so it would make sense to buy a camera with 'Tough' capabilities - would it not?

After reading many reviews on these cameras, it seems as though picture quality and the time it takes to take consecutive photos is the biggest problem.

I am in the market for a new camera, and was all excited about buying one that I wouldn't have to worry so much about, but after seeing the prices it makes me wonder if my money would be better spent on a 'real' camera - you know those chunky ones with 15x zoom?

I guess it comes down to what you need it for, which is why I am asking this question from like minded people (hopefully). What would you buy?

Dylan

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All.

My view - Note I am biased.

After reading many reviews on these cameras, it seems as though picture quality and the time it takes to take consecutive photos is the biggest problem.

If you want "good" photos then buy a camera that takes "good" photos. Do you need to to be able to rip off a dozen shots in 2 secs - if not it will probably cycle fast enough.

I am in the market for a new camera, and was all excited about buying one that I wouldn't have to worry so much about, but after seeing the prices it makes me wonder if my money would be better spent on a 'real' camera - you know those chunky ones with 15x zoom?

What does 15X zoom mean and is it what you want when what you are after is lens length. Case in point - my new lens is a 150-500, that is a zoom of 3 and a bit but it does takes impressive shots of wildlife.

I believe you are asking the wrong question. All cameras are tough - it is just that some get maltreated.

For me the biggest dangers to any cameras are:

• * Getting moisture inside the body and the inevitable fungus growth on the lens.
  * Getting dropped by the "Klutz" carrying the camera.
  * The camera being shaken to death in vehicles.

To stop the preceding happening

• * Don't drop your camera in the water and don't put it somewhere where it will get condensation occurring inside it.
  * Learn how to hold a camera - wrist straps can be good investment, taking cameras in boats requires some risk management .... and don't be a "Klutz".
  * Pack cameras carefully - once-upon-a-time I kept my camera gear inside Tupperware containers that had foam inserts to cradle them. They also happened to be dustproof, waterproof and absorbed vibrations. You can buy small containers that do exactly the same job from your local tackle shop, add extra foam, an examplehttp://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/prod ... escription.

If you are really worried about the camera then take a cheap one with you. I use to recommend to my Scouts that they take disposable cameras on hikes. They got the photos and it was not a great financial lost if they "lost" the camera. The waterproof disposables also worked very well - and they just happened to dustproof.

The issue is not the camera rather it is the user. As an example - the biggest problem that seems to afflict Digital SLR's is dust on the sensors. I have a early 300D which is now 7 years old and it has never had dust on the sensor - all I have done is take a few sensible precautions.

Would I buy a water/weatherproof camera - yes/no. If I was heading off somewhere where was going to be using the camera in an environment that was either wet or dusty then "Yes" otherwise I would be happy with a normal camera.

... if my money would be better spent on a 'real' camera - you know those chunky ones with 15x zoom?

I guess it comes down to what you need it for, which is why I am asking this question from like minded people (hopefully). What would you buy?

To answer your question in a roundabout way - The bitterness of Poor Quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price - I would buy a camera that was "fit for purpose". Why buy something that will never meet your expectations - unless you intend to destroy it rather quickly. (As the old saying goes - Got a $10 Head, by a $10 Helmet.)

Mathew Brady photographed the American Civil War using a wet plate camera - we have it easy.

[Nephew]

How's about what Frank Hurley went through to deliver, hey Grahame? Although it has been proven Mr. Hurley took a little poetic licence on some of his images, he was still an amazingly brave man who battled all kinds of technological limits and weather extremes, yet still produced haunting images of Shackleton's expedition (The ship being slowly crushed in an Ice floe) and some of the most famous images of WW1 ( It was on some of these that he exercised his prerogative to "enhance" the image)amongst them. It was Hurley that inspired the great Robert Capa to produce what would come to be known as "Photojournalism"
It's truly incredible what some of these pioneers went through!

Oh, sorry Dylan, mate I know nothing that could help you here.

[DylanK]

Haha no worries Moreton.

Grahame, thanks for sharing your insight in the matter. I have sent you a pm.

Dylan

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

Craig

Hurley was an astounding person, his films are better than his stills. Capa was in the right place at the right time. Compare his work to Henri Cartier-Bresson.

... he exercised his prerogative to "enhance" the image ...

A photo is never a reflection of reality - you are only aware of what is in the image, not how it got there or what is outside the frame. Photographers have been modifying the final image since the second photograph ever was made.

Brady http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathew_Brady
Hurley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Hurley
Capa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Capa
Bresson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Cartier-Bresson

Check out the work of William Henry Jackson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Jackson and Ansel Adams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansel_Adams

How would you like to be using on of these - and they were the standard issue camera for US Military Photographers in WWII - you can see why many (eg Capa) purchased 35mm Leicas.

Photos, Photography and Photographers - hours of conversation. I received a book on the Pulitzer Prize Photographs for Xmas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An Addenda to want I have posted in the preceding post - there always seems to be questions about Cameras.

Good photos are the result of people not the equipment - ie Having an expensive camera does not mean you will take better photos. In most cases it just means you will take more expensive photos.

"Ultimately, the technology is just a tool," he said. "It's a tool that lets your eye become the picture. It's easy to get caught up with all of the gadgets and all of the technology, but the most important thing is just to get comfortable with the tools you have."

David Burnett

As an aside read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/techn ... yt&emc=rss

Some reading:

Compact Zooms
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/Q110superzoomgroup/
Travel Zooms
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/q210gro ... page24.asp
Why a SLR.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Guides/ ... ide_01.htm

[Stickbow Hunter]

Dylan,

Sorry I got busy last night and didn't get a reply done to you. I pretty much agree with what Grahame has said and those cmaera review sites he gave in his last post are worth looking at.

IMO a cheap point and shoot (P & S) camera is a waste of time if you want to get good photos rather than just a so so snap shot. The cheap ones are built that way and often the optics are terrible. Where most P & S cameras fail is when the light is low - late afternoon etc - as with their very small sensors the photos become very noisey (grainy). In good light they are usually fine.

Don't fall into the more mega pixels the camera has the better as this isn't necessarily true as again the more MP they try in pack into those little sensors the more the processors have to work to get a good sharp photo.

IMO you really want a camera that will allow you to take control when taking a photo - you set the apeture, shutter speed and flash etc when you want to and I prefer one that also has a view finder.

We have two P & S cameras, one a mid range Canon that runs AA batteries and the other a high end Canon G9 (I think there up to G 12 now). I really like the G9 as it also shoots RAW files like a digital SLR camera can and I always shoot RAW plus jpeg as the RAW files really allow you bring out the best in a photo if you happen to have taken it and not had the settings just right. We also have two Canon digital SLR's, one crop and one full frame. On my last hunt I carried one of my SLR's and even though it was obviously bulkier the photos I got was well worth it.

I would look at the higher end P & S if you are after a more compact camera or a digital SLR if you want the best quality photos. Also remember that you have to take care of any of them when out bush as water and dust don't do them a real lot of good.

Anyway have fun shopping and let us know what you end up getting.

Jeff

[DylanK]

Thanks Jeff.

What I will do is buy two cameras, a cheap waterproof point and shoot for my water activities, and a DSLR for everything else.

I am now tossing up between a Samsung WB5500, or buying a Canon SX120is. The canon only has 10x zoom compared to 26x for the Samsung, and is probably considered a p & s? It has all the manual controls from what I've read, but still seems a bit basic. I am heavily leaning towards the Samsung because for the $300 price tag, I don't think there is much that can match it.

Grahame, thanks for the sites they are very helpful. The Canon that you threw into the mix is out of my price range, although the flip out screen would be nice.

Dylan

[Stickbow Hunter]

You say you want a cheap waterproof camera but the two you mention are far from being that. Out of those two I would go with the Canon not that it is excellent by any means but I feel it would give you better quality images compared to the Samsung. The latter would suffer image quality wise because of the 26x zoom. IMO it isn't much good having the reach if the image quality is terrible.

If you don't need the zoom and want a compact easy to carry P & S with excellent image quality (for a P & S) I would suggest the Canon PowerShot S95. It is more expensive but a quick look reveals grey imports from an Aussie Importer can be had for $396.00.

Anyway some more to think about.

Jeff

[DylanK]

Jeff I didn't mean to say the cameras I mentioned are waterproof. I meant in addition to one of those cameras I would buy a waterproof cheapy.

As it turns out the Samsung is just a p & s camera with a monster zoom - I thought it was classified as a DSLR Jeff I think you are right in terms of image quality with the zoom, although from youtube vids the previous model WB5000 had alright video quality at that magnification. Problem is that DSLR cameras start at about $600 and I'm not sure if I can justify spending that much money. The zoom capabilities and good looking photos is definitely something I would like though.

Why are these decisions always so complicated

Thanks for the info so far guys,

Dylan

[Stickbow Hunter]

Going for a digital SLR and good zoom is going to cost a lot of money - $1,000.00 upwards. Go to the links Grahame provided and look at P & S cameras in the 10x range as these will give you reasonable zoom with reasonable image quality - better than the super zooms I would think. Happy searching.

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All.

Please note - Jeff and I are both biased towards Canon Cameras.

Note - I am not recommending any brand over any other nor am I recommending any retailer over another. Buy from the retailer you feel happy with. As far as cameras go if you are buying an SLR you are buying a "Lens System". Canon and Nikon currently rule the roost and have done so for 20 plus years. However, there is a plethora of Digital SLR's on the market these days.

If you are buying a SLR then the fact it can take video is neither here nor there - if you want to take video buy a Video camera.

If you want a Canon SLR and at the same time to minimise your cost you can buy a 500D with a lens for as low as $748. (http://www.camerasdirect.com.au/webapp/ ... 1_10505___)

Ted's offer a 1000D for $579 http://www.teds.com.au/canon-eos-1000d/ ... 4_5351152/

By the time you eventually decide what you want you will feel like it is all too much. I don't have that problem - I just buy Canon although it took me 3 years to come to decision to buy a new lens recently. The choice was large as was the cost variation.

Just for the exercise - check some of the long lens Zooms or Primes that have a focal length of at least 400mm. Have a look at their prices (which should shock your heart) and then have a look at their weight - does the thought of carrying several kgs of camera and lens appeal to you.

[bear74]

Hi there Dylan,
I am certainaly no professional photographer but as a photojournalist I do rely on my camera's a great deal to complement my articles and columns. as a stand alone camera that can handle a great deal of abuse the pentax optio w90 which has reliabley captured images while fishing and hunting in all conditions is great camera. My good SLR is a canon 550D which I also use a great deal and takes superb images for publication. the SLR is permantly housed in an ortlieb aqua zoom case which has kept my Good camera safe from all the elements thrown at it and protection from general knocks and scapes. I hope it helps as these are my pick if you want to pack light and still take great picks.

BEAR

[otis.drum]

as far as tough goes. the new olympus 'tough' 8010 should fit the bill. 2m shock proof, 10m waterproof, can withstand 100kg of force being placed on it, and will operate in -10*C. however, it is seriously let down in its actual picture taking/making ability.

another, which performs somewhat better in pic quality and usability is the panasonic lumix DMC-TS2.

i have mates with each of these. the olympus is tougher if throwing your camera against a brick wall is your thing. the lumix takes better pics and is nicer to operate.

check out dpreview.com for reviews.

[DylanK]

Well I have finally bought a camera. Although it has nothing to do with the threads title, I have bought a Canon 1000D (non-IS) with 18-55mm lens, and I bought a 50-300mm lens as well. Total price was $629 from Clive Peeters. The main reason for not buying a Tough camera is price. For a little bit more money, I got a whole lot more. I will just have to look after my gear (as Grahame stated).

I haven't figured out all the settings as such, but I did take a few pictures that turned out very well (by my standards). It sure is fun being able to zoom in so close to see all the detail once uploaded to the computer. A few things I am looking forward to learning is taking pictures in low light without it being grainy, and figuring out which programs I use for what instances. I will upload some pictures later on once I get a better understanding of the camera.

Main reason I did not buy the Samsung superzoom camera: you get the disadvantages of a p&s in terms of picture quality and manual flexibiliy, and the disadvantages of a DSLR in terms of size.

Main reason for buying the 1000D: it is a DSLR, and it was on special

I will still buy a p&s later down the line - most likely a cheap waterproof (or tough depending on price) camera, but for now, I am most happy with my purchase Thanks alot everyone that had advice to give.

Grahame I did look into big zoom lens pricings and weight. Does anyone actually buy those lenses if their not a professional photographer?

Dylan

[Stickbow Hunter]

Congrats on the new camea mate!!!

A few things I am looking forward to learning is taking pictures in low light without it being grainy,

Take it out of AUTO mode so you can set a lower ISO. You will have less noise (grain) but your shutter speeds will be slower. My advice is read your manual and have your camera beside you when you do and try out the different settings. I would say 90% of my photos are taken in AV mode and the rest in Manual mode.

Have fun mate and I look forward to seeing some shots from the new camera.

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

Well I have finally bought a camera. ...I have bought a Canon 1000D (non-IS) with 18-55mm lens, and I bought a 50-300mm lens as well.

Well done, it will serve you well over the years to come. Next step is to learn how to use it all. You will be able to take some great wildlife images with the 300. Next step is the Giant Learning curve, both the Camera and the Digital Darkroom. "Photoshop Elements" and "Paint Shop Pro" are great tools at low cost.

Grahame I did look into big zoom lens pricings and weight. Does anyone actually buy those lenses if their not a professional photographer?

Yes. Photography is just like Archery. On the plus side the better lenses do tend to retain their cost better.