AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

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AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#1 Post by greybeard » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:35 pm

Austromyrtus bidwillii, known as the Python Tree is a rainforest myrtle of eastern Australia. The usual habitat is the drier rainforest areas.

The range of natural distribution is from the Hunter River (32° S) in New South Wales to Coen (13° S) in far northern Queensland in dry and subtropical rainforest.

Common at various altitudes, up to 1100 m in the north.

Other common names include Lignum-vitae, Scrub Ironwood and Smooth-barked Ironwood.

A medium sized tree, usually around 18 to 25 metres tall and up to 20 cm in trunk diameter.

The trunk is crooked and not cylindrical, the bark being smooth and orange/brown in colour with attractive green blotchy markings.

Hence the common name of Python Tree. The bark sheds in thin papery flakes.”



My billet was about 2 ¼” in diameter and harvested in 2002 in the Bluewater area just north of Townsville. With sealed ends and the bark in tact the 66” billet spent 12 years in my workshop with no ill effects.

Unfortunately my piece of timber was egg shaped in the cross section and when cut down the middle I was left with a lopsided semi circular cross section and although the back of the stave was badly violated it has held together.
Plan And Side View.jpg
Plan And Side View.jpg (37.97 KiB) Viewed 7360 times
Bow dimensions of the artefacts of this style of bow vary from 60 5/8” [found in Holmegaard] to 76 3/8” [found in Vedbaek]. The average height for males in that period was 67 ¼”.

My billet allowed me to make a bow with a length of 64” n to n with a total working limb length of 32”.
Bow Compilation.jpg
Bow Compilation.jpg (181.91 KiB) Viewed 7364 times
Tip And Grain.jpg
Tip And Grain.jpg (226.84 KiB) Viewed 7364 times
Surprisingly the billet yielded a bow that closely resembles the sketch of the artefact bow.
Mollegabet.jpg
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The timber is close ringed and has a tight fine grain, the sanding dust falling away like talcum powder. This particular piece of timber responded well to scraping.

In all I am very impressed with this species and if the piece I used is representative of the quality of this timber I believe it could be a premium bow wood.

To the best of my knowledge it is not commercially harvested.

Daryl.

For those wanting to learn how to make selfbows and bamboo backed bows I suggest you check out this E book authored by Chris Münkel, on special at $12.99 it is definitely good value for the money.

http://www.makingtraditionalbows.com/ab ... uthor.html
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#2 Post by yeoman » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:39 am

Go on. Tease us with your new found excellent bow wood.

It's uncanny how close the stage shape is.

Do you have any pictures to demonstrate just how the back has been violated?
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#3 Post by rodlonq » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:00 am

Outstanding result Daryl, and a very nicely done piece of research. That bow looks fantastic. 12 years... you are a patient man, but it seems to have paid of magnificently. Thank you for posting it.

I have heard about the Python tree being in this region and I intend to try an find some once I have learned to identify it. Now days it seems trees have feelings just as much as animals, so unless it is a noxious pest species, it could be difficult to find someone willing to let me harvest one.

I notice a lot of Lignum Vitae self bows being made by the fellas in the Primitive Archer group. I wonder if the local tree is the same species as the PA fellas are using.

Cheers.... Rod

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#4 Post by Hamish » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:17 am

Nice work Daryl. Was the timber's working properties similar to any other that you have tried before?

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#5 Post by hazard » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:53 am

Nice find Daryl
Am i to guess this would laminate up and perform well as a glass backed bow?
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#6 Post by yeoman » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:44 pm

If you can't find the mechanical properties, but want to know them, then send me a couple of samples and I'll run some tests to see how it compares to the likes of our other bow woods.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#7 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:09 pm

Nice work as usual Daryl.

Jeff

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#8 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:41 pm

That is a lovely bit of work there Daryl. It is astonishingly close to the drawing of the original artifact from Holmegaard.

I have noticed on some of the US sites that they tend to leave the outer limb far thicker than I would guess is needed to obtain the leverage effect this design achieves. My few (3) Holmegaards have not been as thick as the Yanks go for and still got the straight lever limb end so long as they were not tapered toward the tip. Mine were just slightly thicker than at the shoulder and of parallel thickness from the shoulder to the nock.

I notice that the artifact drawing shows a slight thickening just after the shoulder then thins again toward the tip. Have you seen any of the US replicas?

Many years ago, when Jeff and I were on a hunt somewhere out toward Blackall I think it was, I was given a stave of a very blonde wood by Vic Johnson who lived at Townsville at the time I think. I am sure he said it was Python Wood. Blowed if I can remember what I did with it. It was very hard indeed.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#9 Post by greybeard » Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:54 am

yeoman wrote:Do you have any pictures to demonstrate just how the back has been violated?
Unfortunately no.
rodlonq wrote:....12 years... you are a patient man, but it seems to have paid of magnificently..... Rod
Rod, indecision is probably closer to the truth. I could not settle on a bow design so it sat in the workshop [forgotten]. It was about two weeks ago when I finally settled on a design.

At some stage the tree was renamed Gossia bidwillii.
Austromyrtus bidwillii Trunk.jpg
Austromyrtus bidwillii Trunk.jpg (60.37 KiB) Viewed 7266 times
Austromyrtus bidwillii Growth Rings.JPG
Austromyrtus bidwillii Growth Rings.JPG (54.52 KiB) Viewed 7266 times
hazard wrote:Am i to guess this would laminate up and perform well as a glass backed bow?
Possibly, but I believe the timber would serve a far better purpose as a selfbow wood.
Hamish wrote:Was the timber's working properties similar to any other that you have tried before?
Alphitonia excelsa (RHAMNACEAE); Soap tree, red ash, growing west of the divide and some hard rock maple that I have used.
Stickbow Hunter wrote:Nice work as usual Daryl.
I find selfbows are much more rewarding than glass laminate bows.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:That is a lovely bit of work there Daryl. It is astonishingly close to the drawing of the original artifact from Holmegaard.....
I have noticed on some of the US sites that they tend to leave the outer limb far thicker than I would guess is needed to obtain the leverage effect this design achieves.
I notice that the artifact drawing shows a slight thickening just after the shoulder then thins again toward the tip. Have you seen any of the US replicas?

Dennis, I haven’t been watching the trends on the US sites but I do know that I could shed extra weight from the tips without compromising their function. I may do some modifications to the bow once it settles in.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#10 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:29 pm

In further response to Hazard's question about this species, my guess would be that it would be of no benefit in a glassed bow because of its mass. Glassed bows are at their best with a wood whose best properties are high shear strength and low mass. This was realised very long ago in the beginning days of glassed bows. The wood itself is little more than a spacer for the glass laminates which take pretty much all the tension and compression stresses. It is the distance between the glass laminates which defines draw weight just the same as thickness does with wood bows.

A high mass wood like this Python Wood, between glass only adds unnecessary limb mass to slow the limb speed down more than necessary. In the old days, through reading my collection of old archery magazines back to the end or WWII, Hard Rock Maple was chosen because of its relatively low mass and high shear strength. As many glass bowyers today also know, Bamboo cores are hard to beat too. Their shear strength is very high and the mass is very very low which adds up to significantly higher limb speeds.

Back in the old days again, many people thought they could obtain 'super' bows by having the best of both worlds by having cores of Yew or Osage between glass. Yew worked because of its relative low mass, but Osage did nothing because of its high mass and tended to kick like blazes if you did not use very heavy arrows to absorb some of the excess energy from the heavy limbs. I have owned a few glassed bows using both materials as cores in my time.

The glass laminates pretty much neutralise any inherent properties a known bow wood has as a selfbow and I think pretty much that what Daryl has said about Python Wood is correct.

And Daryl, I have seen some/many US made Holmegaards with outer limbs as thick as 3/4" and parallel thickness out to the tip, having a big step in thickness at the juncture of the mid-limb shoulder and the outer limb. Most of them are remarkably narrow in width - almost twig-like - the rationale for which is beyond me. It certainly does not make for lateral stability in the outer limb.

My own preference is for an outer limb which very gradually increases in thickness to a maximum at the string groove. I have found that this modest amount of thickening is quite sufficient to maintain a pretty rigid outer limb in keeping with the principles of the design. Have you got any full-draw or on-tiller pics? I noticed when googling my name, quite a few people on the web cite my paper from some years ago on the mechanics of tillering the design. So it seems to have been accepted reasonably which I find satisfying. International publisher and author . . . what-ho! :biggrin:
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#11 Post by greybeard » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:02 pm

Dennis La Varenne wrote:....... Have you got any full-draw or on-tiller pics?......
Dennis, I was trying to anticipate the delay between the shutter button and shutter but was a little premature so consequently the bow is a bit shy of 28" in the draw.
02 Draw.JPG
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03 Draw.JPG
03 Draw.JPG (292.11 KiB) Viewed 7248 times
The bow is fitted with a Fast-flite Flemish twist string supplied by Wallace Woods.
Grouping.JPG
Grouping.JPG (82.91 KiB) Viewed 7248 times
My shoulder will not comfortably handle 55# but during the making I had a few shots when the bow was pulling 35# at 15 inches and the bow was 'dead' in the hand.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#12 Post by GrahameA » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:15 pm

Evening All.
greybeard wrote:... Dennis, I was trying to anticipate the delay between the shutter button and shutter but was a little premature so consequently the bow is a bit shy of 28" in the draw.
And I would add I was probably not drawing it the best ....... suffering from a day of archery yesterday, that is my story and I am sticking to it.

A few comments:

a) It appears to shoot fast, faster than what I expected.
b) For me it is beyond the weights I shoot on a regular basis ..... take away a few pounds tp, say, 50@28 and I would find it much nicer.
c) It is as accurate as the archer, if you were to shoot it badly the issue is very much the archer not the bow.
d) There is no shock/vibration/jar with or post the "shot". If anything the bow feels 'dead' and yet it performance is anything but dead.
e) The finish is outstanding and IMO if you were to burnish/bone the bow and then a some wax and it would be just about perfection.

Shazam - that is two bows that Daryl has made in a few weeks that are outstanding to shoot.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#13 Post by yeoman » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:13 am

I am often boggled by how thick tips on Danish bows and some handle risers get in the name of rigidity.

Everyone in the wood bow world seems to know the 'double thickness, cube the draw weight' rule, yet people seem to go overboard in making the tips on Danish bows enormously thick.

I suspect that what often happens is the bowyer marks out the thickness taper along the whole length, cuts it out, then tillers only on the inner bending section.

I would suggest the prudent method would be to tiller along the whole limb's length as usual, and seek to remove enough wood from the stiff tips such as to see them flex only slightly. This would be a good way to ensure the tips have minimal mass while maintaining optimal stiffness.

Your bow looks terrific, Daryl.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#14 Post by bigbob » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:38 am

Beautiful bow as always Daryl. Just as an aside I recently obtained some boards of an ironwood , locally named as red ironwood. Very heavy 'though I haven't tried any tools on it yet to observe its characteristics. I will check it out via species list.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#15 Post by greybeard » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:46 am

Thanks Bob, it has been a long time since I have had a decent billet to make a selfbow from and I am really pleased with the result.

Working on the other half at the moment.
bigbob wrote:...... I recently obtained some boards of an ironwood , locally named as red ironwood.....
Does the following describe your timber?

Scientific Name: Lophira alata.....................Common Name(s): Ekki, Azobe

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... oods/ekki/

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#16 Post by bigbob » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:34 am

I don't think it is, as this one is endemic to far north Queensland at least though it may perhaps be found further south. i have no idea of the tree's characteristics as it was already milled when i was given it. Very heavy with a pleasing deep reddish colour.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#17 Post by rodlonq » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:14 pm

Bob, perhaps your board is Cooktown Ironwood (Erythrophleum chlorostachys)? ADD = 1220 kg/m3. MOR = 140 MPa, CS = 85 MPa (Bootle pg 419).

Cheers... Rod

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#18 Post by Mick Smith » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:22 pm

I've got to hand it to you Daryl. When my interest in selfbows is at a low ebb, you always seem to come along with something that inspires me to have another go.

How do you think a similar design would go using a 62 inch osage stave?
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#19 Post by bigbob » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:25 am

rodlonq wrote:Bob, perhaps your board is Cooktown Ironwood (Erythrophleum chlorostachys)? ADD = 1220 kg/m3. MOR = 140 MPa, CS = 85 MPa (Bootle pg 419).

Cheers... Rod
I'll never really be certain, Rod as without any defining characteristics such as bark or leaf structure it would be pure conjecture.
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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#20 Post by greybeard » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:17 am

Mick Smith wrote:How do you think a similar design would go using a 62 inch osage stave?
Hi Mick,

Osage should handle this design without any problems. The big question is; is your billet suitable for this design.

Can you post a photo of the end of the billet showing the crown, growth rings and indicate the usable width of the billet.

With your 62 inch billet, depending on the condition of the ends you may end up with the n to n length somewhere around 60 to 61 inches.

Two points to keep in mind are the practical draw length and finger pinch.

Draw length can be increased by making extra working limb length available. Keeping the handle area to a minimum and taking some length from the stiffened tips will increase the length of the working limbs.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#21 Post by rodlonq » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:54 am

Hello Daryl,

Just wondering if the violated back of the bow is all within the sapwood layer, or does the violation extend into the heartwood as well?

Cheers.... Rod

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#22 Post by greybeard » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:12 pm

Rod, there is no visible distinction between the sapwood and heartwood, growth rings were violated by 6mm or more.
Side B.jpg
Side B.jpg (57.77 KiB) Viewed 7102 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#23 Post by rodlonq » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:51 pm

greybeard wrote:
Austromyrtus bidwillii Growth Rings.JPG
Thanks Daryl. The sapwood seems a lot more distinguishable in the photo above showing the growth rings. Perhaps the photo is not one of your stave.

Cheers... Rod

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#24 Post by JoeLethbridge » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:25 am

Hi Daryl, since you told me about this timber about a year ago, I've made three gossia bows: a 62" bow that has a natural recurve, a 65" flatbow and a 68" ELB that didn't work out. I found on Paleoplanet that the Americans have a similar wood (in properties and appearance) called Crepe Myrtle, and they're all for heat treating the belly of the bow. Judging by the amount of set shown in my flatbow and recurve, it wouldn't hurt to try it out on the gossia.

Yes, you're right about the grain and the density. Gossia trees have been found that grow to over 1000 years old, but with a girth of less than 30 cm! Here's a pic I found on the net of a CSIRO worker with a similar gossia species that's close to 1000 years of age on the Atherton tableands. Image

Hope to perform further experiments with this interesting wood.

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#25 Post by greybeard » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:53 am

JoeLethbridge wrote:......and a 68" ELB that didn't work out.........
Joe, I think limb cross section is critical with this timber.

I tried a deep cross section bow 63" n to n out of an offcut and the back failed at a small pin knot as I was approaching 55# at the 28" draw mark. I must add that the growth rings on the back of the bow were badly violated.

The plan and limb profile of an Ironbark bow made by Alan Jones should suit the bidwillii.
Ironbark Limb Profile.jpg
Ironbark Limb Profile.jpg (66.76 KiB) Viewed 7061 times
Reflex added to the stiffened tips was done using steam.
JoeLethbridge wrote:Hope to perform further experiments with this interesting wood.
Please keep us informed with the results of your experiments.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: AUSTROMYRTUS BIDWILLII

#26 Post by Mick Smith » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:28 am

greybeard wrote:
Mick Smith wrote:How do you think a similar design would go using a 62 inch osage stave?
Hi Mick,

Osage should handle this design without any problems. The big question is; is your billet suitable for this design.

Can you post a photo of the end of the billet showing the crown, growth rings and indicate the usable width of the billet.

With your 62 inch billet, depending on the condition of the ends you may end up with the n to n length somewhere around 60 to 61 inches.

Two points to keep in mind are the practical draw length and finger pinch.

Draw length can be increased by making extra working limb length available. Keeping the handle area to a minimum and taking some length from the stiffened tips will increase the length of the working limbs.

Daryl.

Hi Daryl.

I was just playing with ideas. I have already decided I'm going to use that particular billet to make a Cherokee style bow. I think it should be ideal for that. I would like to make a bow in the style of your Bidwillii bow one day though. I'm retiring soon and I hope to be able to devote a lot more time to my recreational pursuits.
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