Hard Rock Maple ‘D’ Section Longbow.

[greybeard]

This particular bow making exercise was a result of the following posting; follow the link for full details.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11225

Stickbow Hunter wrote:
Looks good Daryl. How do you find the Maple on the belly as I have find it doesn't take compression very well at all; at least not in an all Maple bow.
Jeff
Thanks for the feed back Daryl.

greybeard wrote:
As a point of interest I will make an all maple 'D' section longbow to see if can handle the compression.
That will test it out for sure!
Jeff

I found the off-cut length of maple slightly over 1" square in the wood heap and to my dismay the grain orientation was about 45 degrees edge to edge and displayed a bit of a banana bend.

Having committed myself to the challenge I had to carry on.

Initially I was going to post a reply along the line of; yes, it works or I have kindling for the fireplace. I decided to do a bit of a "build-a-long" hoping that it may encourage others to have a go.

To make the test credible? I had to work out the parameters of the design.
The following is from "Wiki". I cannot vouch for its accuracy but there appears to be little information on this topic.

"Organizations which run archery competitions have set out formal definitions for the various classes; many definitions of the longbow would exclude some medieval examples, materials, and techniques of use. According to the British Longbow Society, the English longbow is made so that its thickness is at least ~ (62.5%) of its width, as in Victorian longbows, and is widest at the handle. This differs from the medieval longbow, which had a thickness between 33% and 75% of the width. Also, the Victorian longbow does not bend throughout the entire length, as does the medieval longbow."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_era

I believe that bowyers of the day would have modified the design to suit the particular stave.

As a side issue you may wish to check out the following link.

http://www.bowyers.com/affiliations/craftGuild.html

Hard Maple (Acer saccharum) Common Name(s): Hard Maple, Sugar Maple, Rock Maple Scientific Name: Acer saccharum Distribution: Northeastern United States Tree Size: 80-115 ft (25-35 m) tall, 2-3 ft (.6-1.0 m) trunk diameter Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (705 kg/m3) Basic Specific Gravity: .56 Hardness: 1,450 lbf (6,450 N) Rupture Strength: 15,800 lbf/in2 (108,970 kPa) Elastic Strength: 1,830,000 lbf/in2 (12,620 MPa) Shrinkage: Radial : 4.8%, Tangential: 9.9%, Volumetric: 14.7%, T/R Ratio: 2.1

The timber was cut to 74" to cater for a bow 72" n to n.
A stringline was run end to end to obtain true centre and a line drawn. A half way mark was drawn on what would be the back of the bow and other markings placed at 6" spacings [used as reference points] to the end of the timber. The plan of the bow was marked out and cut to shape. A side profile was marked out and cut.

My initial thoughts were to go with the 62.5% but as I was working down to that percentage I was running out of wood. I decided to go with previous experiences and learnt knowledge. The finished bow is borderline medieval at 76% to 78% over the length of the bow.

Basic tools can produce a working selfbow. The finished bow was achieved by using accurate measurements rather than numerous trips to the tiller board. The board was used in the initial stages to get the stave to brace height so a suitable length string could be made.

A sharp finely set spokeshave and sand paper do all the work.

Basic Tools.JPG (113.29 KiB) Viewed 3011 times

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When you have spokeshaved to the marks round off the edges by gentle spokeshaving or sanding. Repeat this process to get the bow to the desired poundage. Keep in mind that a bow will shed in the vicinity of 5 pounds during the shooting in process.

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Using this method you can keep track of tiller changes as you shoot in the bow and make any adjustments if needed.

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The bow is braced at 6".

The bow does not have a designated handle so you have to work out the arrow pass and nocking point.

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At this stage no chrysals have appeared on the belly so the bow will get a thorough workout at the range on Wendesday.

The bow shoots well and at a all up cost of about $15.00 I have a bargain.

Daryl.

[Steven J]

Looks great Daryl. $15 bucks hey. I'll offer you $20 and you can call that a profit

Well done mate.

Steve

[perry]

Evening Greybeard - Nice Armguard mate and looks like a nice Bow is starting to emerge there as well Daryl. Will we see it at the Corrival ?? I would suggest that you continue to tiller the Bow so that the last 5 or 6" of each limb are not bending as you have eluded too. You'll find it will need a more circular tiller. I have made similar Bows and built the handle section up for a more comfortable grip with layers of cork tile that I've rounded off and then bound with string.

regards Jacko

[Stickbow Hunter]

The bow looks good Daryl; it will be interesting to see how the Maple holds up. What is your draw length and what was the draw weight?

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Morning All

Looks great Daryl. $15 bucks hey. I'll offer you $20 and you can call that a profit

Hmmm...... That would $15 in timber, $1200 in labour and a pack of Assorted Creams.

Another example of just how good Greybeard is at making bows.

[Steven J]

I guess that means the price is set at $1215 then. Would you be happy with that price Daryl?

Seriously though, it is a fine effort. Any all timber bow, self or laminated, takes a high degree of skill to accomplish and I take my hat of to you.

To add to the knowledge pool, my daughters first bow which was more of a pyramid style bow had a rock maple belly. I backed it with linen and have found even then that the belly has showed no signs of compression failure. Kids bows are generally overbuilt and therefore last well, however I really worked this one down to a scale model of an adult sized bow. (The bow eventually did fail when an interested staff member saw it unstrung on my desk at work and tried to draw the bow )

Steve

[bigbob]

Looks good Daryl, love the way you layed out each limb profile to check tiller.Good stuff for a novice bow maker.

[stringnstik]

Another great bow, congrats Greybeard

[greybeard]

Thank you for the comments.

Creating working selfbows is the ultimate challenge for a bowyer.

It has been some years since my last one and found that I had to refresh the grey matter.

Jeff,

The draw length of the bow in the photo was 26½", checked it out today, arrows 30½" overall. Normally my draw length is 27½" but ongoing wrist problems are creating difficulties. Pulled down on the bow scales it came out at 36# @ 28".

I was disappointed at this low reading but in hindsight I was restricted by the width of the off-cut that I had to play with and my miss reading of the 5:8 rule [not less than].

The integrety of the bow will be tested on Wednesday when gentlemen with a 28" plus draw length can give it a good workout.

In hindsight I would have chosen a different cross section profile [in the 5:8 = 62.5% rule] but the exercise was to see if hard rock maple could handle the compression factor in a deeper cross sectioned bow.

With timber having similar properties and size to the piece that I had to work with pushing a bow to the 50# range I believe could have problems.

I would not be too hasty to discount rock maple as a suitable material for longbows but careful selection of the board and bow design would be paramount. Being such a massive tree one has no idea of which part of the tree the board came from. A split bush billet would be another story.

Perry,

On closer inspection of the last 8" of limb profile they are more [shouldered] than the rest of the bow. I will correct this stuff-up before reducing the belly.

If we do not succeed in destroying the bow on Wednesday I will bring it up to the Corrival.

Daryl.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Thanks for info Daryl. Even with a 28" draw the bow won't be under a lot of load but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Jeff

[Gringa Bows]

Looks good Daryl.....

[greybeard]

I had time to play around with the bow this morning.

Reworked the outer eight to ten inches of the limbs and decided to put some arrows through the chronograph. Reworking the tips made for a smoother shooting bow. A Fastflite Flemish twist string will make it better.

Compared to laminated glass bows the numbers aren't big but with a selfbow in the low 30#s and pushing 13 grains per pound I was reasonably happy. Good form may have gained a few extra fps.

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So far the belly has retained its integrety.

Daryl.

[bigbob]

Good stuff, look forward to eyeing it at Corrival.

[Gringa Bows]

nothing wrong with that Daryl

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All.

It works. On a Field Shoot today Daryl shot it and landed on the Target.

I shot Indoors @18m with a spare set of arrows and after 3 shots I could keep every arrow within a 150mm circle, most were within a 75mm circle. That was without a nocking point so the bow shoots fine. p.s. I was drawing it out to a full 28". There is no sign of failure ..... so far.

[bigbob]

what's that little post rider 'so far,' oh ye of little faith?

[terryzac]

looks the goods darryl. looking foward to seeing it on the weekend


terry

[hazard]

Daryl
Every time I reckon I have a plan set in my head what I want to build when I get the time, you put something very interesting up like this and I am back to the drawing board!

Man you gotta love this forum!

Love your work Daryl

Hazard

[greybeard]

As Grahame has mentioned the bow had a good workout this morning.

I am happy with the feel of the bow and for what it is it shoots well. It is a pity the archer is not as good . Hit some targets well and on others I had the concentration span of a dead ant.

I increased the brace height to 6¼" and it draws 36# @ 28" and added some padded leather in the grip area for comfort.

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Tip overlays are black wattle.

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Bees wax and carnauba wax was rubbed in to seal the wood.
At present string follow has settled at 1 1/8".
The bow is kind in the hand and there is no sign of chrysaling.

Daryl.

[greybeard]

Daryl
Every time I reckon I have a plan set in my head what I want to build when I get the time, you put something very interesting up like this and I am back to the drawing board!

Man you gotta love this forum!

Love your work Daryl

Hazard

A bow such as this can be done quite easily [time wise]. You will be amazed at what you can achieve in half hour or hourly blocks.

I cant vouch for others but I find that spokeshaving and sanding selfbows is relaxing, benificial therapy and rewarding.

Daryl.

[bigbob]

Daryl
Every time I reckon I have a plan set in my head what I want to build when I get the time, you put something very interesting up like this and I am back to the drawing board!

Man you gotta love this forum!

Love your work Daryl

Hazard

find that spokeshaving and sanding selfbows is relaxing, benificiaA bow such as this can be done quite easily [time wise]. You will be amazed at what you can achieve in half hour or hourly blocks.

I cant vouch for others but I l therapy and rewarding.

Daryl.

Also dont get that damn fibreglass itch either. sawdust not so bad!

[GrahameA]

Hi Bob

what's that little post rider 'so far,' oh ye of little faith?

All self bows are doomed. It is only a matter of when. I have few and my view is to know when to put them up on the rack.

This afternoon i was shooting my tri-lam and put probably a couple of hundred arrows through it. Plus I was shooting this morning. With that sort of load they suffer and it will eventually let down to a level where I will stop shooting it or it will break. So I try to restrict myself in using it so it lasts a few years. My war bow is still going strong but I try to use a minimum amount - it would a challenge to find another piece of Ash with grain as good as the one I have.

[bigbob]

'All self bows are doomed' !All manner of life is finite, its just the degree of limitations that hurt.Take your point though.

[greybeard]

Hi Bob

what's that little post rider 'so far,' oh ye of little faith?

All self bows are doomed. It is only a matter of when. I have few and my view is to know when to put them up on the rack.

This afternoon i was shooting my tri-lam and put probably a couple of hundred arrows through it. Plus I was shooting this morning. With that sort of load they suffer and it will eventually let down to a level where I will stop shooting it or it will break. So I try to restrict myself in using it so it lasts a few years. My war bow is still going strong but I try to use a minimum amount - it would a challenge to find another piece of Ash with grain as good as the one I have.

Bob, I agree with you "oh ye of little faith?"

Grahame, most things in life have a 'use by/best by' date.

'All self bows are doomed.'

I disagree! They may lose in the performace stakes, but like humans as we get older our performance goes into a decline.

I may have to Google 'Viagra for selfbows'.

On a more serious note I believe that we continue to make selfbows because we understand some of the problems associated with selfbows.

I am confident that the bow will survive Caboolture, Wisemans Ferry, Gympie and many more trad shoots.

As an extra challenge I will use this bow exclusively to Xmas.

I will wager a packet of my Country Cottage Triple Choc Cookies against your Arnotts Assorted Cream Biscuits.

Life is wonderful.

Daryl.

[perry]

Hi Bob

what's that little post rider 'so far,' oh ye of little faith?

All self bows are doomed. It is only a matter of when. I have few and my view is to know when to put them up on the rack.

This afternoon i was shooting my tri-lam and put probably a couple of hundred arrows through it. Plus I was shooting this morning. With that sort of load they suffer and it will eventually let down to a level where I will stop shooting it or it will break. So I try to restrict myself in using it so it lasts a few years. My war bow is still going strong but I try to use a minimum amount - it would a challenge to find another piece of Ash with grain as good as the one I have.

I simply can not agree.



made DECEMBER 1996 and still shootin

I only have 3 Selfbows on my Bowrack at the moment Grahame, The oldest I made in December 1996 from Pink Ash, the next December 1998 from Brigalow and the last, another Brigalow Bow, June around the year 2000 at the Abbey Fayre. All 3 have shot a great many arrows, certainly in multile 10's of thousands for the Brigalow Bow's. Those 2 Brigalow Bows where 2 of very few Bows I shot for 6 or 7 years. The Pink Ash Bow has not had as much work but still thousands of Arrows. It was a Lumpy worn eaten Stave that I was told would not make a durable Bow - 2011 and it's still going.

Sure an improperly tillered, poorly designed Selfbow is Doomed but a well tillered, well designed and cared for Selfbow will last Decades. Sure a well used Selfbow will have a degree of String Follow - so what - it sweetens them up. String follow does not continue to increase the more a well tillered and designed Selfbow is shot unless you are abusing it. It reaches a point were the distribution of stress is equalized. You could say string follow stops when the Bow is shot in.

I guess if any of these Bows do ever Fail I will need to dust off my Machete and Farriers rasp and console myself with a Brewed Coffee and 2 packets of Homebrand Tim Tams, cause they taste the same and cost 1/2 as much

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Morning Daryl and Perry.

Daryl - whilst that sounds like a wonderful offer I know how few arrows you shoot. It will be barely shot-in this time next year.

Perry - you could agree if you really wanted to. I too have a few bows that have survived, probably more because I have stopped shooting them as much as anything else. I also remember a few bows that have not survived.

Better design and more appropriate timbers extend the life but in the end ........

[bigbob]

Gee Grahame, if you extend that philosophy to life then its not worth drawing that first breath' cause we're all gonna cark it in the end!

[GrahameA]

Afternoon All

Gee Grahame, if you extend that philosophy to life then its not worth drawing that first breath' cause we're all gonna cark it in the end!

Yep. The important thing is what you do between those two events.

[bigbob]

Also I would think it is how far apart one can manipulate the eventualities.

[greybeard]

Grahame,

People go to an electrical appliance outlet to buy a toaster or electric jug etc and even before they get to the cash register they know the items are destined to fail over time. Why do the buy them?

I believe "doomed" is the wrong terminology; we need to encourage people to make selfbows.

Perhaps wording such as "the useful lifespan of the bow is governed by the selection of timber, limb design and patience and care when making the bow." Haste makes waste.

This afternoon i was shooting my tri-lam and put probably a couple of hundred arrows through it. Plus I was shooting this morning. With that sort of load they suffer and it will eventually let down to a level where I will stop shooting it or it will break.

Grahame, as you are aware the bow was badly tillered but from day but one you did not bother to correct this issue so failure is probably inevitable. Time and patience is a virtue required when making selfbows or laminated wood bows.

All self bows are doomed. It is only a matter of when. I have few and my view is to know when to put them up on the rack.
My war bow is still going strong but I try to use a minimum amount - it would a challenge to find another piece of Ash with grain as good as the one I have.

Shoot the bow for the enjoyment that it gives; if it breaks make another one. You might even find a better piece of ash.

Daryl - whilst that sounds like a wonderful offer I know how few arrows you shoot. It will be barely shot-in this time next year.

I accept the fact that I am still a novice when it comes to making selfbows but I have a system in place where the bow is "shot in" before it gets a visit to the range. At times minor adjustments may be necessary.

From the selfbows that you have made what is the "magic number" of arrows that need to be shot to determine when the bow is shot in? Or do you just keep shooting it until it fails?

Daryl.