Flatline opus 1&2 take-down recurve Build-a-long

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Flatliner
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Flatline opus 1&2 take-down recurve Build-a-long

#1 Post by Flatliner » Wed May 04, 2011 9:35 pm

About 18 months ago me mate Paul Mayall (the knife maker) and I were siting around drooling over some Conkerberry samples he had brought back from down Charters towers way and fantasizing about a bow made completely from this outstandingly beautiful timber.
I said 'Paul if we can find pieces long enough for the limbs I can make the bow'. So we planed a timber hunting trip. We spent 4 days searching the 8 square KM of land that was due to be cleared by the station owner (you are not allowed to cut this timber with out a permit) for all the useable Conkerberry we could find.
Now after milling the best lengths and seasoning them for the last 16 months I'm going to start this opus like project.

I'll be making 2 take-down MC2s (one for Paul and one for me) using a combonation of false Sandal wood and Conkerberry in the risers and all Conkerberry limbs.
Target weights are around 52-55# @ 28" for me and around 58-60# @ 28" for Paul. I have a 29'' draw and Paul has a 27" draw so in the end we will be drawing about the same weight.

I havn't used Conkerberry for limbs before (due to this I'll be starting with the lighter set of limbs and using core thickness figers on the heavy side so if they come out heavy they can be Pauls limbs) but it passes all of my gluing,bending and stress tests so far, now to try it in action in a bow.
I thought maybe you all might like to follow the progress and see how it's done in the Flatline shed.
This project could take quite a while cause I'm fairly busy at work and I'll be doing it between that and other bow orders.
Here's some pics of the timber I'll be starting with.
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(above) The riser material. I've sanded and coated a piece of the false Sandal wood so you can see what it will look like finished. At the moment the riser timber is about 14mm thick, 100mm wide and 530mm long.

(below) The limb material. I will have to splice and relaminate some of this to get fault free solid lams.
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As you can see it's hard to get large fault free bits of Conkerberry, this is the best, straightest and longest of the almost full trailer load we were lucky enough to harvest.

Whish me luck.
Rob
Last edited by Flatliner on Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#2 Post by Flatliner » Sun May 08, 2011 8:42 pm

AAAHHH!! what have I started. I spent a few hrs in the shed this morning, thought I'd start with the easiest part :lol: :oops:, the back lams for both bows.
Using my limb profile stencil I selected the best cuts for feature and strength out of the material I have to work with. After cutting out the grey core, my selection developed some not so nice curves.
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So I chose matching pairs, jigged and clamped them straight and ran a file between them to hopefully get a seamless join.
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I will have to add pieces of off-cut to the out side edges of three out of four of the lams to bring them back to 45mm wide.
I'm also trying to keep a bit of that white sap wood on the edges of the limbs as a border, it's got that orange/white Nemo type contrast going on. It also seems to have similar density and resilience characteristics.
So after 3 hrs this is what I've got, the second one down shows the outside edge add on bits (which will be re moved again when the limb shape is cut from the blank out of the form) and is also the only one that is ready to glue together, the method of which I'm still theorizing about.
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Just think all this is just to get blanks to grind half of the required lams out of.

I've got an interesting theory about what Patience is if anyone wants to hear it :? 8) :lol: but I think this project is going to test it to it's limits.

Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#3 Post by Flatliner » Mon May 09, 2011 9:45 pm

This is what I'll be Telling my self (like a mantra) in those difficult moments.
(I ALWAYS start by telling....no convincing my self, this is going to be way way harder than I think it is).
Then I try to keep this in my head.
This doesn't require patience, patience is waiting in a line where it doesn't mater how long you wait the result will be the same. When you create something the more effort, care and time you put in the better the result is. So if you find your self taking longer, having to take more care and putting in more effort than you were expecting to, then there's a good chance the result will be better than you expected also.

Aim for the stars......you might hit the moon :wink: .
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#4 Post by Flatliner » Tue May 17, 2011 8:26 pm

I've made a bit more progress over the last few days because my car blew a head gasket on the way home from work on Friday, so I've been ducking out to the shed every now and then to get a break from the quoting and book work I keep trying to avoid and no longer have an excuse to, cause I can't get to work till the car's fixed.
I've managed to get three lam blanks glued up and one in the clamps at the moment.So far so good, though I'm starting to feel more like a dental technician instead of a bowyer. had to fix a fault (an unavoidable bark inclusion).
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The finished lam blanks and one still in clamps.
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I glued some neoprene on to one each of my clamp blocks to maintain even pressure where there was a discrepancy in thickness or width.
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I was showing the Conkerberry to a friend and swabbed it down with metho to bring out the grain and WOW it even surprised me and I've been using this timber for a while now. My friend's comment was "it looks like the great storm on the surface of Jupiter", not far wrong I reckon.
And here's a picture to drool over :shock: :lol:
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Cheers, Rob
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#5 Post by Flatliner » Wed May 18, 2011 10:59 am

I've decided to put a little Beefwood into the mix on these bows, that way I'll have a bit of all the timbers we collected on our timber hunting trip (then they will be kind of 'story bows', if you know what I mean).
I've also decided to grind the Conkerberry down as thin as I can and use it as veneers over a Bamboo core. I have faith in the timber but not in the faults in it. This way I'll have more confidence they will hold together in the long term. It would be a shame to put this much effort in to have the bows fail down the track aways.
I ran them through the lam grinder to clean them up, you got to be happy with joins like that hey :biggrin: .
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Now to start on the difficult set of lams :roll: .

Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#6 Post by Flatliner » Sat May 21, 2011 8:14 pm

Time for another episode in the continuing saga of the Flatline opus bows.
After repeating the same, though more complex process for the second set off limb blanks I ran them through the lam grinder this morning and they came up OK.
I couldn't get the full width of the limb profile out of two of the pieces so I machined a couple of strips from other pieces and laminated them into the center of the limb to maintain some of the white boarder down the sides. The strips in the middle came up a lot darker than the surrounding wood, (surprising really considering it's from the same stick) I guess it's just because they're back-cut and the rest is quarter-cut.
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So now I have the blanks to grind my veneers out of.

I should probably point out that many of the processes I am using here are not my standard bow building methods. Although this thread will contain the whole normal process, (among all the added extras) in the end. A lot of what I've done so far and plan to do are firsts for me, so if you see me doing something the hard or stupid way and you can come up with a better method, please let me know, I figure 2-50 heads are better than one. :smile:

I've been thinking of how to get a little Beefwood into the mix with out cutting into the integral beauty of the Conkerberry and have gone with the Gum leaf theme again, the shape lends it's self well to easy band saw cuts and bending thin veneers around.

Flatline take down risers are made from four thin slabs of wood with usually contrasting thin timber veneers between. I normally start with a block of timber 90mm x50mm x520mm and rip it on the band saw into two bits 90 x13 and two at 90 x10 and machine them down to 90 x11(which become the center of the riser) and 90 x8 (which become the out side faces of the riser). I carefully select and turn these pieces so that the grain of one piece opposes the grain of the one adjacent to it in the finished block, along with the veneers laminated in between, this method pretty much stabilizes all of the inherent stresses and tensions in the timber caused by climatic and environmental conditions.

Now the reason I went off into that rave was to get to this, I'm going to put the Gum leaves in the sight windows and they will only be laminated into one of the above mentioned 'thin slabs' (obviously the one that is shown in the sight window) so it doesn't come through the Conkerberry I plan to use for the out side faces. (Remember I'm building two bows)
And here's a picture.
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And after I made the cuts.
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And here's the start of what I plan to put in there, the Conkerberry strips have been tapered to 0.001"/1" using a master taper so they are thin at the tip of the leaf and thick at the base of the leaf. I'll wrap a double veneer of Conkerberry/Silver Ash around the out side of the leaf when it goes into the riser block.
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Tune in next week for the next exciting episode of,,,,,, I must have rocks in my head,,,,Brought to you by Flatline Bows :roll: :lol: .

Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#7 Post by Flatliner » Sun May 22, 2011 7:37 pm

Fiddled around a bit more this afternoon. One of the most difficult lamination fittings I have ever done. I wouldn't normally do it this way, usually I would build it up in layers, but I made the mistake of cutting out the whole leaf shape instead of just one side at a time which made clamping it in layers pretty much impossible,(to keen to see the end result,, :roll: :roll: it's a real trap thinking like that).
I haven't glued it yet but here's what the dry run looks like.
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there is Conkerberry under that white line running through the center of the leaf, I went over it with the white pen so I could see it better during the fit.
One down one to go :roll: .

My car's still not fixed so I might be able to do a little more tomorrow.
Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#8 Post by Flatliner » Tue May 24, 2011 9:56 pm

Got the second leaf glued and clamped up.
Here's a pic of the first one out of the clamps so you can see the colors.
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Then I went on to selecting the cuts out of the Conkerberry for the risers. To avoid waisting to much of this valuable timber I decided it was worth while cutting the riser shape out roughly and replacing the off-cuts with pine to form the block which is necessary for the process I use to form the limb planes. I wasn't able to save Jupiter's great storm though,which is a shame.
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And ready to be glued and clamped.
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It's in the clamps now. I'll see how it comes out in the morning.
Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#9 Post by Flatliner » Wed May 25, 2011 8:14 pm

Here's a pic of the same side of the other bow with the piece I cut out due to faults, I was lucky to find a piece that almost matches the grain 8) :smile: .
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I am having a hard time Getting what I nead out of what I've got :roll: :wink: .

Rob
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#10 Post by Flatliner » Thu May 26, 2011 7:30 pm

More detail on the way, I haven't even started making the bows yet, this is all just to get the timber to build them out of. Ah the fun and games :smile: :roll: :lol: .

Cheers, Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#11 Post by Flatliner » Sat May 28, 2011 7:58 pm

Well after a lengthy session on the band-saw and lam grinder, all the components for both risers are ready to be clamped into blocks. Discovered the false Sandal wood is an absolute ba$tard to sand, only get 100 mm into a grind and the belt is already starting to clog. Ended up pulling the lam through the grinder with one hand and clearing the belt using a file card with the other hand. :roll:
I've gone a little over the top with the veneer layers, but I think the combo will look the goods.
So the layers are from the top down; Conkerberry,Beefwood, Silver Ash, Fls Sandal wood, Slv Ash, Fls Sandal wood, Slv Ash, Beefwood Conkerberry.

And here's a picture of all the parts for both risers layed out in the order they will be in the block.
The veneers are about 0.020" or 0.5 mm thick. I've found the thiner you make details like this, the classier it looks. The finished size of the blocks will be 500mm long x 90mmx45mm exactly.
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So I've got one in the clamps now and I'll glue the other one in the morning.

Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#12 Post by Flatliner » Sun May 29, 2011 6:36 pm

The glass on the limbs will be 40 thou on the back and 50 thou on the belly.
Seeing as how these bows are a bit special I decided to go the whole hog and put a mosaic made from a combo of all the timbers in the bows sandwiched between clear glass through the risers as well. I just love making work for my self don't I :smile: . Ah well if ya gona do it, do it well.
Here's a pic of the bits of wood, they are about 8mm x 10mm, I'll cut them to 45mm long and glue them cross wise between two bits of 40 thou glass, when it's dry I'll rip it down the middle on the band saw so I'll have two pieces of glass with an approximately 2.5mm layer of mosaic wood on one side. Oh yeah I'm gona add some Silver Ash in too.
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Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#13 Post by Flatliner » Mon May 30, 2011 9:41 pm

Had a short day at work so did a bit more this afternoon.
I ran both riser blocks through the grinder to clean them up then marked out the piece to be cut out for the mosaic. Normally I would just make one cut, but this time I'm going to remove a 4mm strip so I don't put my leaves (which are buried in the middle and wont be seen again until the sight windows are cut out) out of shape.
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Then I milled down a bit of Silver Ash to add to the mosaic and cut them all into 45mm blocks and cut the glass for all the limbs and masked the ones for the mosaic.
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Pretty isn't it :) 8)


Then organized some specialized clamping blocks that fit my riser block gluing jig.
Here's what the dry run looks like.
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This will be ripped in half down the center of the wood and become the mosaic in both bows.

I've glued up the mosaic (wasn't that fun :!: ....not :neutral: ) but it's in the clamps now ya!!

Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#14 Post by Flatliner » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:52 pm

OK, so I got the mosaic out of the clamps and cleaned it up on what I call my sanding deck, which is a 250 wide sanding belt from a floor sander cut so it is a sheet about 1 M long and clamped down to the very flat section of bench I dressed for this purpose. I use this setup quite a bit during the whole process, it's a very useful tool. I use grades of paper from 24 grit through to 180 grit.
Then I ripped the mosaic on the band saw and ground them down to the desired thickness removed the masking tape from the glass (which is 40 thou) side and sanded it on the lam grinder, all with 40 grit paper.
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I sanded both sides of the 50 thou glass until it was 40 thou to match the other one and set them aside.
I then cut the strips out of the risers very carefully on the band saw.
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Using radiused blocks with 24 grit paper glued to them and back-light to see where material needed to be removed, I carefully matched them. I find doing this process by hand is by far the most efficient method, if you do it on a machine one slip or bump means you have to take the whole surface back to match the mistake.
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Notice how the sanding blocks aren't as wide as the riser block but the paper is, this is to counter the camber that naturally develops when your sanding block is as wide or wider than what you are sanding.
So after about 10 minutes of sanding the join should look like this :biggrin: .
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I glued up both riser blocks making sure when I put the mosaic strip in, that the wood was in compression and the glass in tension (I've tried to do it the other way and had the little blocks split :x :oops: not good in the middle of a lay-up.
And here's a picture :smile: .
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Can't really see the colours in the mosaic yet cause it's rough sanded.
It's all about delayed gratification :wink:

Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#15 Post by Flatliner » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:05 pm

I should take a couple of pics of my little shed I think it would surprise you how little you really need to make some really nice stuff. Ninety percent of the machine work is done on the band saw and lam grinder/spindle-sander. My lamb grinder is really simple, it's the running gear out of a 610 x100 Makita belt sander mounted horizontaly above a flat timber work surface. Apart from that the only other powered tools I use are a small drill press (for about five minutes per bow) router, jig saw, compressor and batery drill.
I'll post this and go take a photo of my lam grinder.
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I use a timber block for a fence so when I change a belt (which takes about 30 seconds :smile: ) I just run the block over the new face and walah ,, perfectly paralell fence.
The simple things in life ARE the best

The home of Flatline Bows
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Cossy hey :smile:
See that shinny stuff on the bench,,, thats the third coat of left over techniglue :lol: :lol:.

Rob
Last edited by Flatliner on Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#16 Post by Flatliner » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:12 pm

OK, time to start actually making the bows (at last :biggrin: ) The next part is IMO one of, if not the most critical stage in making a three piece take down; forming the limb planes. If they are not perfectly aligned in relation to each other then what ever error exists will be exponentially magnified at the tips of the limbs. IMO some bowyers who repetitively suffer from limb twist in there bows are really suffering from riser twist. You can make the bow look straight when it's first made, but every time you draw it you will in fact be twisting the limbs in opposition to each other, so over time you get ever increasing limb twist.
This is why I jig and router my limb planes. I start by making the bottom/belly side of the riser block perfectly straight and square. then cut out the necessary parts on the band saw leaving 2-3mm to remove with the router.
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Then clamp the block into the jig and down to the bench and with a 20mm straight mortising bit run the router over it. Repeat the process for the other end, if the block is truly straight and square then the limb planes have to be right. (Of course you have to get the jig right in the first place :| :lol: :lol: ).
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I use a slightly modified Bingham jig to position the holes for limb bolt inserts and pins (no point in re inventing the wheel :biggrin: ) and use their inserts and pins also. It's a good system.
Notice there are two marks where I'm going to drill the holes, these marks are fractionally narrower than the holes in the jig so you can line them up with the sides of the holes in the jig, and are marked from both sides of the block. (never assume the block is perfectly parallel)
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Drill the holes to the appropriate depth.
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Then using a bottom end taping bit create a thread to screw your insert into.
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Before I glue the inserts in I coat the internal thread with a coat of bees wax by putting a small ball of wax just inside the insert, heating up a limb bolt with a lighter and screwing it into the insert. This works as a bond breaker in case there is a mishap with the glue and as a rust preventative. Using a Cotton tip I coat the threaded hole in the riser block lightly with techniglue making sure the whole surface is lightly coated, this provides the first level of water proofing in the limb bolt holes. When the bow is finished I also drop a plug of bees wax into the hole and screw a heated bolt into it to really seal it and provide on going rust prevention.
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Using a lock-nut and limb bolt, screw the insert (which should have a little glue just on the leading edge) into the riser until it is below the surface of the limb plane.
SDC11146.JPG
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There's still glass overlays and pins to go into the limb planes but that happens a bit further down the track, for now the blocks get put aside and I start on the limbs :| ,,,,which have me a little concerned cause I'm using a timber I've never used before and Bamboo which I've used very little, and in effect putting three lams in the limbs which I've never done either, so I'm worried about landing close enough to the target weight :? . I've only got one chance to get it right :? :sad: :confused: :oops: :roll: :wink: :lol: .

Cheers, Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#17 Post by Flatliner » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:52 pm

Well after studying all my records of core thicknesses I've used up to this point (which don't really apply to the materials I'm using :roll: ) I've committed my self and made a partially educated guess, (read taken a stab in the dark :lol: ). I'm going to attempt my limbs first and ere on what I think is the heavy side so if they do come out heavy then Paul can have them.
Aiming for 52-55# @ 28" the core thickness will be 0.125" or 125 thou. With this particular limb design 1 thou means approximately 1 pound in draw weight.
Flatline MC limbs normally have only two 0.001"/1" opposing, tapered lams, so the core is in reality parallel.The back lamb is usually 25 thou at the butt end and approximately 50 thou at the tip on all MC limbs unless very high poundages are required. This format brings one of the glue lines in the limb, from nearly center at the tip to 25 thou off the back glass at the butt of the limb. IMO this gives better tension strength over the wedge area (which is a hard working part of the limb in every bow) and balances the thicker material that is in compression at this point also. The belly lam thickness is adjusted to change the overall core thickness. But in this case the back lam is as described above, the belly lam is a 25 thou veneer and a tapered Bamboo core which tapers in the opposite direction to the back lam.
Here's a pic showing the back lam and a 0.001"/1" graduated Hard rock Maple Master taper, each mark on the taper is two inches so in theory, by moving your lam toward the thick end of the master taper, each mark will reduce the lam by 2 thou.
SDC11149.JPG
SDC11149.JPG (126.77 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
I make the larger adjustments to the lam grinder by putting a pencil mark on the work deck and taping the back of the braceing block clamped there with a small tack hammer. (pretty grass roots hey :lol: :lol: 8) )
Anyway, I ground all the lams/veneers to the required thickness. I actually make the core for the top limb about 1-2 thou thiner than for the bottom to get head start on the tillering. then ground the Silver Ash wedges for both bows using another master taper. The wedges are 8 1/2" long and 300 thou thick at the butt end which makes them very finely tapered. They are also active, meaning they work all the way to the bolt. There is no flat section on the limb where they rest on the limb plane, when unstrung there is a gap between the end of the riser and the limb. I think this helps add to the preloading of the limb at brace and you know the entire limb is working and sharing the load.
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The wedge blankes.
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When you hold the wedge up to the light it should look like this.
SDC11156.JPG
SDC11156.JPG (132.41 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
AAH look at that beautifull Far North Queensland 28 degree winter weather, thats why I live here :wink: :lol: :lol:

Here's all the components for the first limb into the form. Notice how they're all clearly labeled, very important in a lay-up with opposing tapers and different thickness glass for belly and back.
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Depending on how my day goes I hope to get the first one in the oven tomorrow evening.

Chao babies :biggrin: Rob
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#18 Post by Flatliner » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:16 pm

I didn't manage to get the limb in the heat box last night but I did this morning. Didn't take any photos during the lay-up, it's always a bit too hectic and sticky for camera work, so took one using a dry lam set to demo how I do it. (a little different from most from what I can gather)
I start the normal way by cleaning them with metho and putting the lams and wedge in the heat box for about 15 minutes to dry them out thoroughly and open up the grain for a better bond. A friend asked why I did this, and after I explained the reasons he said 'so you're removing the moisture and replacing it with glue',,, hadn't thought about it that way until then, a good way to look at it really 8) . Then mixed the glue while they were cooling. I always glue the glass and the surfaces of the lams that are going to be against it first and put these surfaces together immediately, I think this helps to avoid air bubbles and creates a thinner glue line because the glue is always runnier when first mixed. I also organize the lams when drying them so that the face that will be in contact with the glass is convex not concave which IMO helps to push the air and glue out from the center of the limb.
This is where I do it a bit differently, when it's all glued and together, I stand the assembled limb up on the butt end on the bench and wrap the whole thing in cling wrap by spinning it on the bench and working down and then back up the limb with the roll of cling wrap.
And here's a picture.
SDC11168.JPG
SDC11168.JPG (148.26 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
Bet you were all wondering what I look like hey :biggrin: . The first words that come out of most peoples mouths when describing me are "tall and thin", and, then comes the "extremely good looking" and hansom comments :lol: :roll: :wink: .
Then I put a 1mm thick, thin rubber backed, metal pressure strip on the belly side using the same method. The whole thing is put onto the male part of the form (which is clamped into the vice) making sure the butt end is hard against the stop-block on the form, then using that extra tuff 100mm wide cling wrap type stuff they use for packing and bundling timber, I firmly wrap the limb onto the form as far as the curve will allow. It must be kinda funny to watch cause I end up using my chin and forehead to bend the limb onto the form as I wrap it :lol: :oops: :| .
When the bend becomes to much for the packing wrap I use three layers of duct tap (prepared earlier) to pull the last of the limb down onto the form and wrap the ends of the tape around a rod that runs though it for this purpose.
Here's a pic of my form set up ready to go.
SDC11161.JPG
SDC11161.JPG (171.64 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
It's then placed on top of the female part of the form (seams like a more natural way to go about it to me :lol: :lol: ) Which already has the air hose in place. The two parts of the form are screwed together through timber braces that insure it remains in line and parallel. Then I clamp it together with purpose made clamps to deal with the 63 PSI I put in the air hose. When the air hose is inflatted it is done in three stages, 20 PSI for about five minutes while I deal with the leftover glue, 40 PSI for about 3 minutes and then up to 63 PSI, the theory is at 20 PSI there is more pressure applied to the center of the limb than at the edges which should help push any air from the center to the edge and then out of the limb, I just added the 40 PSI stage to make sure.Then the whole lot goes into the heat box for a minimum of 10 hours at 55 degrees Celsius.
Here's what it looks like just out of the box.
SDC11169.JPG
SDC11169.JPG (93.86 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
I'll try to do the other limb in the morning if life doesn't get in the way.

Cheers, Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#19 Post by Flatliner » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:14 pm

The other limb is in the heat box until 8.00 tonight then I'll turn it off and let it cool overnight. meanwhile, here's the first one out of the form.
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Nice and tidy, that's one reason why I wrap the limb instead of trying to lay the plastic over the form. Before I started doing it this way I had a few dramas with glue ending up in the wrong places, like on the air hose, the form,the clamps the pressure strip and me, pretty much everywhere :x :sad: :oops: :roll: :lol: . Due mostly to the way my form is set up with the air hose below the limb. Anyway, after unwrapping the plastic the excess glue was sanded off on the sanding deck with 36 grit sand paper. This is where the sanding deck comes into it's own, because it's a large very flat area you can sand the whole limb edge at one time and by making careful passes applying pressure in the appropriate places on the limb you can get them very straight and parallel in a very short time without the risk of mistakes that are easily made on a machine.
SDC11173.JPG
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I try to leave a very fine layer of glue to keep it sealed from moisture (which is a problem during the wet months up here) and allow for maximum width in the limb at this stage.
SDC11176.JPG
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I've been wondering what to name my bow, it's gota have a name. Paul has already decided to call his "Wildshow",,,, cause it will be :lol: , Might call mine either "Great Storm" in Honor of the feature that didn't make it into the mix, or "Opus Prime", both sort of grand and inspiring sounding names.

See ya next time same bat time same bat channel :lol: .
Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#20 Post by Flatliner » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:08 pm

A bit more progress this afternoon. After removing the excess glue from the second limb I squared the butt ends on my miter saw and put them back on the form to mark the position for the knock grooves and the cut for the tips.
SDC11179.JPG
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These marks are squared across both sides of the limb for reference points latter on after the limb profile is cut. I make the top limb about 2-3mm longer than the bottom limb and the deepest part of the hand grip on the riser is about the same amount below true center, so in total it's about 5-6mm below true center. Don't know why I do this really :? but it works for me.
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Then using the same method used on the riser the position for the bolt and pin holes are marked.
SDC11182.JPG
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The limb is positioned in the jig then a timber block is clamped hard to the back side of where the bolt hole will come through to minimize the splits in the glass that can appear if this isn't done.
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I bevel the edges of the holes with one of those cone shaped grinding bits, also to avoid splits in the glass when fitting the limb to the riser.
OK, time to get the hardware out.
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I tap the pins into the riser and then it's a slow process of removing small amounts of material from the butt ends. Here's how I do it with out getting a round on the butt end. With the limb in the vice at the correct hight with pencil marks to show where material is being removed and a block supporting the end of the file on the bench to keep the angle constant I remove material until the limb is a nice tight fit in the limb pocket.
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The result should look a little like this :) .
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Aaah, I couldn't resist it, normally I leave the limbs masked until it's ready to put the first coats on, but I had to peek :shock: :lol: .
The back :D .
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The belly :D .
SDC11194.JPG
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The weekend's coming, hope to get a string on it and find out if it's mine or Paul's :?.

Th,th,th,thats all folks, Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#21 Post by Flatliner » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:05 pm

BTW I'm doing the thread in detail like this cause when I first started learning about this stuff I would have loved to have found one with all the "assumed" bits and pieces included

Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#22 Post by Flatliner » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:39 pm

Hey! who's a happy bowyer? :| :) :D :lol: :lol: 8) , I am :D . How's this for ass, I wasn't having a very good day at work so I bailed at lunch time (one of the few advantages of being self employed) and came home to do a bit on the bow. Got a string on it and at the first weigh-in it's come out at 56#@28" with a perfect 5mm tiller, so by the time the edges are rounded off and it loses the pound or two that always seems to just disappear into the ethers between now and when the bow is finished, I reckon it'll be 53# and there's absolutely no sign of limb twist (which doesn't happen all that often). Some times ya get lucky :wink: 8) .
This is how I got to this happy moment. Using a straight edge supported on blocks I made sure the limbs were running true with the riser. There is always a little movement from side to side at the limb bolt no mater how hard you try to avoid it, so you get it all as straight as you can, it doesn't have to be perfect but should be close. Then make very definite marks on the limbs so you can put them back on in exactly the same position.
SDC11198.JPG
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Then with a piece of string the right length and weighted on both ends, lay it over the bow so that the string is running over the center of the limb tips. Then looking vertically down on the string from above, line up the string with the center of both limb bolts, (or if you have a bright contrasting veneer running though the center of your riser you can use that :lol: ) If it doesn't line up, then make equal but opposite adjustments to the string at the tips until it does.
Then mark the limb tips on both sides of the string. These marks often deviate from the center of the limb blank by up to 3mm which is OK, you want the center of the bow not the center of the limb blank :roll: .
SDC11200.JPG
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Using a flexible limb profile template taped to the butt of the limb and centered between your marks at the tip, mark your limb shape.
SDC11202.JPG
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Now to cut it I use a jig saw with one of these in it.
SDC11204.JPG
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They are designed for cutting thin stainless steel plate, I payed around $60 for three of them at bunnings but they're well worth it. The blade I used today has already cut about 16 sets of limbs and is still going strong :o .
With the limb clamped firmly to a saw stool between rubber pads and griped close to the work area with one hand run the jig saw beside the line on the waste side. If you don't know your tool well, then cut a mm away from the line.(better safe than sorry.
SDC11206.JPG
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OK then it's back on to the sanding deck with 80 grit paper to dress out the jig saw marks. remove only enough material to take out the machine marks and balance both sides of the limb to the profile marks. keep an eye on the center marks at the tips too, it's easy to get the tips a little out of whack if you don't.
Then using a square mark the knock grooves at 45 degrees across the edge of the limb on both sides.
SDC11207.JPG
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With the limb clamped to the bench with rubber pads (just assume from now on any clamping of the limbs will be padded, I don't really like typing :| :lol: ) and using a bastard file carefully file material away until they are about 3mm deep at the knock groove line
SDC11209.JPG
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Then with a small chainsaw file round them off, carefully remove any sharp edges and burrs on the glass as these will cut your string in no time, (just ask me, I know :oops: )
SDC11211.JPG
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Make sure your knock grooves are symmetrical and that they are the same hight on both sides, otherwise this can cause confusing limb twist issues. I've also rounded the tips so they don't rip my stringer to bits.
SDC11213.JPG
SDC11213.JPG (159.01 KiB) Viewed 32402 times
Bolt the limbs on to the riser making sure they are in exactly the same position as before. Wrap the first foot of the limbs in cling wrap to protect them from any wax on the string and help pad it. String the bow.,,,,,Exciting isn't it :D Then check the tiller. I measure the tiller at the end of the riser rather than the end of the wedges as most seem to do. (I find the actual end of the wedge difficult to find) Using this method I have found that between 4 and 6mm positive (I think) tiller in the top limb is the optimum for this particular design.
SDC11217.JPG
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Gota start another installment, I've run out of attachment space in this one.

back soon,Rob
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#23 Post by Flatliner » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:52 pm

OK back to it, This is when you also check for limb twist. After stringing the bow I put the back face of the riser on the ground and put my foot on the belly to hold it there, then draw the bow several times (don't be afraid to work the bow, it will help release residual tensions in the limbs) and watch how the string tracks on the limbs. If all is well it should track dead center down both limbs, which is the case with this bow :biggrin: .
SDC11220.JPG
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This is definitely not always the case I would say that around 30% of the bows I make have some minimal limb twist at this point (caused I think, by varying areas of tension and density in the timber lams) but it is not hard to remedy.
It's almost a shame there's no twist in this one so I could show y'all how to fix it,,,,,,not :lol: .
There's still another bow to go I guess :wink: .
Here's a couple of pics of the bow "great Storm" strung,
SDC11222.JPG
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and at 28" draw.
SDC11214.JPG
SDC11214.JPG (171.16 KiB) Viewed 32400 times
More on the weekend, Rob.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#24 Post by Flatliner » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:34 pm

I originally started using thinner glass on the back because most of the research I did in the beginning showed it was the done thing, couldn't find any documentation that stated why though. In my humble opinion I think it's a mater of simple physics, like it's a lot harder to break something by pulling on it in tension than it is to break the same thing bending it in compression. I dare say that's why most multi-lam bows seem to have thicker belly lams than those on the back. So it's a case of efficiency really, by using thinner glass on the back you still have ample strength for the job but less mass in the limb which is desirable for faster limb response and helps to minimize hand shock.

Did a little more today, started by clamping the strung bow to the bench with the riser supported on rubber pads so the limbs were not touching anything that would push them out of the correct position. Then using a fatherless file (I find it amusing that the name of one of the most commonly used bow making tools gets censored out :lol: . Whats with that Jeff?) held flat on the riser I filed the limb edges down until they are flush with the riser. I also file all of the surfaces on the riser that will remain flat in the finished bow.
SDC11223.JPG
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When finished they should look a little like this.
SDC11226.JPG
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Then cut the glass for the limb plane overlays. I put overlays on the limb planes to completely stabilize these very important surfaces.
I suppose I should mention something about cutting and handling the glass. First rule, NEVER run your hand or fingers along the edges or sanded surfaces of the glass, this WILL result in very painful, irremovable glass splinters. Always wear a mask or work with a good cross-breeze to take the dust away. When cutting always have the job well clamped. When filing or sanding diagonally to the grain always work away from the grain never into it, this can result in the glass splintering along the grain. Remain aware that it has very little integral strength across the grain and will easily crack and split along the grain if stressed.
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After cutting the glass a little longer than the required size, in this case 3" 5/16 long (the limb planes are 3"1/4 long) sand the gloss from the shinny side with 180 grit or finner sandpaper and mask this side. I do this at this stage because it gets real difficult with a pin and a right angle corner in it latter. Tape the two pieces back to back and by running one end of them over a piece of fine sandpaper flat on the bench, and testing them on the limb planes make them fit. With them still taped together and using the same method as for drilling the holes in the limbs and riser, carefully drill the holes for the bolts and pins. Go slowly because the glass can grab the drill bit and you end up with splits and cracks in the glass around the holes. (which is what I did today :roll: :oops: ) If you do get a split it's not a structural problem, it just doesn't look good, not that anyone's gona see it but you will know its there.
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Make sure the bolts and pins fit through the holes without impediment, and that the sides overlap the riser.
SDC11232.JPG
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Here's something I recently discovered, I've taken to using that clear packing tape as a bond breaker on my clamping blocks and form etc instead of cling wrap, it's flatter, easier to work with, doesn't move around at the wrong moment and is reusable as long as it remains shiny. Works really well, I don't know if anyone else is using it, haven't noticed it mentioned.
Anyway, I actually use the limbs to clamp the overlays on to the limb planes, I figure if the bow is strung and it's all true, straight with NO limb twist and tillered correctly then thats where you want to set it permanently. It's a bit fiddly but I know the result will be limb planes that are exactly molded to the bow when it's as it should be. I start by masking all the surfaces on the limbs that will come in contact with the limb pocket with the packing tape. Then carefully trim it from the holes with a Stanley knife (remember the working with the grain of the glass thing).
SDC11233.JPG
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Notice the limbs are marked top and bottom very clearly on the butt,,,you know the bow I have as my avatar?,,,, I made that for a bloke in Broome and its got the bow details and my logo upside down on the top limb :oops: :oops: :oops: , shame job. But it was just as well cause I've always said that 'perfection is for the gods' and if I ever make a bow that I can't find a fault in, I'd burn it so as not to offend them and until then that bow was faultless.

Back to the subject. I mask around the limb pocket on the riser too (not strictly necessary unless you're a bit anal like me :lol: ). Then coat your limb bolts with bees wax by scraping the thread lightly over the wax and heating it with a lighter, grip one end of the pins in a pear of pliers, heat it with the lighter and by touching it to the bees wax coat 1/2 of it's length in wax let them cool, put them aside, then go and wash your hands well. Care must be taken not to get any wax on any surface to be glued or coated in the future, once wax is on a surface the only remedy is to resurface.
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Mix up the glue and carefully coat the limb pockets including the vertical face that the butt of the limb sits against, the overlay and a little in the hole for the pin. Wrap a rag around your thumb and remove the glue from the area immediately around the holes on both surfaces, this is so there is less chance of the bolt being glued into the riser or the pins into the limb. (although that is what the wax is for but, better safe than sorry :oops: )
SDC11236.JPG
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Put the overlay in place and insert the pin (unwaxed end into the hole), you may have to tap it in if it's a tight fit. Place the limb carefully onto the limb pocket and screw the limb bolt in until it is only just firm (NOT TIGHT). Repeat for the other limb. Then string the bow making sure not to flex it any further than is necessary to string it. Make absolutely certain that the limbs are aligned correctly with the riser and the string is running perfectly down the center of the limbs then tighten the limb bolts firmly with the Allen key, check the string and limb alignment again to be sure. wipe off the excess glue with a rag and let it set for at least 8 hours.

Chao Babies, Rob
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#25 Post by Flatliner » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:30 pm

I don't know if all bowyers go to this much trouble, and ya gota remember these bows are a long way from being "standard" bows, I'm putting a lot of extras into them simply because I doubt very much that I'll ever get timber like this again, so they're special. But then, the structure, mechanics, method and level of care are no different in one of my standard bows I guess.

I was going to go onto Paul's limbs but I've had a little hold up getting Techniglue,(it's not available in Cairns at the moment) and the hardener I have left is too discolored. Ended up getting it direct from ATL composites and had a good chat with there sales manager Mick Bunker, a nice fella, seemed quite interested in the bow making thing. He tells me they have 2 relitively new toughened epoxys called R5 and R15 that he says are 5-10 times better than the one I'm using now :shock: :shock: :biggrin: . I asked him about flexability, peal strength and durability issues and he reckons the new stuff out classes the techniglue CA by a mile. I'll be buying that next time.
Here's a link if you want to check it out.
http://www.atlcomposites.com.au/atl_com ... _toughened
http://www.atlcomposites.com.au/atl_com ... _toughened
OK, next I unstrung the bow and carefully worked the limbs off the riser. They are always a little tight and require gentle wobbling to ease them off, but with the tape removed and a fine sand, you end up with the perfect gap for the coatings. With a Stanley knife trim the excess glue from around the pins and bolt holes and re-bevel the bolt and pin holes with the little cone grinding bit if necessary.
I reshaped the limb tips to make them look better and reduce wind drag (this is how you optimize performance, by picking up every little advantage in the design you can). To do this without creating limb twist, you must find center between the existing knock grooves (not the limb edges) and mark a line. Your new deeper knock grooves have to be equidistant from this mark there is very little margin for error.
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Then I rounded the edges of the limbs with 80 grit cloth backed paper making sure not to sand the edge where the knock tip, string groove and limb bolt over and underlays go. Another reason I leave the masking tape on, so you can clearly see where you've sanded.
Then after fine sanding all of the timber surfaces on the limbs they get a thick coat of good quality pressure pack polyurathane,(the timber that is, including the holes). I put this coat on for a few reasons, to stop moisture geting in between now and when it gets coated and as a grain filler/ sander/sealer. About 95% gets sanded off, it's really just to fill the pores in the timber. Much easier to sand than the product I use to coat the bows.
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Next I marked the 3 1/4" length on the limb planes, and squared them carefully on the lam grinder.
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Here's a disadvantage to using glass in the riser. cutting it with a standard band saw blade dulls the blade almost immediately. I use bi-metal blades (they last about 5 times as long as a standard blade) which are the same blades Paul uses to cut his steel for knives and the glass will even dull them after not that long. So I cut up to the glass on the band saw and then cut through the glass with a hack saw.
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Then cut the riser out on the band saw and cleaned it up on the lam grinder/linisher. This is done very carefully checking that all the curves flow together without lumps and bumps be cause it determines the finished profile of the riser.
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Then I marked out the sight window ready for cutting. It is cut 4mm past center and will be 5mm past and slightly radiused when finished.
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Hey I went back and read through the whole thread earlier :roll: :roll: , sorry about jumping from first to second person all the time and sounding like I'm preaching the "Rob Nicoll how to live your life Gospel :roll: :oops: , hope ya's don't take it the wrong way, I'm just saying what works for me. And the same goes for the bow building :wink: :biggrin: .

More to come.
Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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www.flatlinebows.com.au

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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#26 Post by Flatliner » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:48 pm

Well I figure why stop now :wink: :lol: . May as well get carried away with the limb bolt overlays too and while I'm at it start making the handle blocks for the three knives and a steel Paul is making me in return for the bow.
Don't really feel like typing and like they say a picture paints a thousand words, it's all pretty self explanatory.
The stock for the mosaic strips in the gluing jig.
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And out of it.
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I cut it to the required width, ground some Silver Ash strips, cut some False Sandalwood and made another gluing jig (a must when gluing on an angle.
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And glued it up. This block is the limb bolt overlays for both bows and one knife handle block.
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After a bit of careful work on the band saw I've got the overlays and one extra and the block for the knife. (which still has more layers to go)
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Looking more like a lolly shop every day :lol: :lol: .
Paul finally got around to having a look,,,He's beside him self :shock: :shock: :lol: 8) 8) .

Cheers, Rob
Last edited by Flatliner on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#27 Post by Flatliner » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:24 pm

I am making two bows and if it wasn't for Paul I wouldn't have about half a cube of Concleberry, and the concept of these bows was a dream shared by both of us. Paul said on the phone the other night after seeing the thread that he wouldn't think about selling his unless someone offered him 30 grand :shock: :roll: , so he wont be selling his thats for sure :lol: :lol: .
Rob.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#28 Post by Flatliner » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:30 pm

I'm still at it slowly, the days are big at work lately so not as much time to put into the bows as I'd like. I'm up-grading the limb bolt overlays for my bow cause I'm sick of never having the best bow I've made. Everytime I make myself a bow, the very next bow I make for someone else trumps it,,,,,,not this time :lol: :lol: 8) .

Rob.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#29 Post by Flatliner » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:26 pm

OK, this is it folks, right over the top, here's my limb bolt overlay up-grade. Very fiddly bit of work being so small, but this is how I would normally do this kind of laminating, in a staged, layer build up. Sometimes it's difficult to keep the whole thing in your head so you have to really think about every stage as you come to it.
The components.
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The first stage in the clamps.
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After marking, cutting and fitting, the bits for the second stage.
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Out of the clamps and marked for the final cut. (on the leaf that is)
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The final glue-up on the leaf, the veneers are tapered to paper thin for the tip of the leaf and get thicker at the base.
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But I couldn't stop there :roll: , so a few more cuts and gluings and here's the result.
I'm happy with them :biggrin: :biggrin: 8) .
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:wink:

Spent a few hours mucking around today cutting up bits of wood and phenolic, now I've got an epic gluing session ahead of me. These are the pieces for the limb bolt, string groove and knock tip overlays for both bows and the rest of the pieces for the first knife handle.
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Things are progressing a little slower,(work :roll:) but I'm still at it.

Cheers, Rob.
Last edited by Flatliner on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flatline opus 1&2

#30 Post by Flatliner » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:04 pm

Here are the results of my big glue.
The blanks for the string groove overlays (which were cut from the glued block). These are stacked together, taped and cut into shape at the same time. Then tapered quite steeply on the wide end to blend them into the limb but still maintain enough thickness to be affective.
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After cutting the strip of limb bolt overlays up and cleaning them up on the sanding deck and lam grinder, I beveled the leading edge on the grinder and dressed them on a piece of fine sandpaper flat on the bench.
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This is every thing ready to go onto both bows (except I haven't cut the knock tips out yet) and the finished knife handle block.
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The knock tips are layered from the bottom; white phenolic, False Sandalwood, Conkerberry, Beefwood with the mosaic running through the center of the wood layers.
Should come up pretty flash in the end :wink: 8) .

Chao, Babies :P .
Last edited by Flatliner on Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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