Bear Paw self nock jig.

[longbowinfected]

No pix yet, be patient.

I have just bought a Jim Mason three lam bamboo bow. Little ripper. Going to demo it at a large Medieval show at Luddenham 7 November where I will dress up in the full medieval kit with my daughter whilst the club does a Come n Try shoot.

I got the itch to modify some really long boo arrows with self nocks. I originally put on plastic nocks but they are really hard to install dead centre on some boo arrows if the pith is not dead centre and the taper sharper than most. Because these were really long the nock end was more difficult than usual.

I bought a Bear Paw self nock jig. Been thinking abot it for a long time.
two inches square by about three inches deep.

Basically a block of aluminium with a deep saw guide groove and a shallow groove guide.

First you cut a groove for you to insert and glue horn. You buy horn cut blanks separate to the kit or cut hardwood to the required size, Then when dry and cured, you cut another groove at right angles to create a shallower nock groove.. Saw is separate and not in the kit. It is recommended tat you use a good quality tile saw with circular wire blade.

The block is tapped and you have three removable collet/guides to hold 5/16, 11/32 and the size bigger shafts [13/64?]. You place the nock end of the shaft into the collet then screw the collet into the block. When secured you put the block into a bench vice.

It is aluminium so be gentle with the metal device [softer than your vice so pad it].
Tapered boo arrows wobble a wee bit but the device gets the job done well. I would probably use it to create channels for flint or steel/iron trade points too.

Was not too expensive. The dollar is strong. Get one now while you can at a price you can afford. Give John McDonald [AMSO 128] a tinkle because I know he is getting a few in.

I wil post pix after I make/finish my six demo arrows.


Kev

[longbow steve]

uselesswithoutpichers.jpg (71.84 KiB) Viewed 4422 times

[Roadie]

Steve as Kev said........ BE PATIENT. Cheers Roadie

[Stickbow Hunter]

The block is tapped and you have three removable collet/guides to hold 5/16, 11/32 and the size bigger shafts [13/64?].

That'd be 23/64" I would think mate.

Look forward to seeing the arras with their new nocks.

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

quite right....never use those monsters.....toolbox full of extra tools I have never read the size of,

Thanks Jeff.

Kev

[longbowinfected]

By the way the block is actually only about one inch by one inch by an inch and a half.

Kev

[jaselpool]

there you go - we stock it as well - German made and does the job well indeed

Jase

[longbowinfected]

Now some pix to catch up with the text.

[longbowinfected]

I do not remember when I was so delighted and then disappointed in such quick order.

Nice unit as the design is superb. Unfortunately the unit is made for price in the wrong materials. I took care, wrapped it in cloth, used a belt to tighten and loosen as I was a little concerned. I noted that partly because the arrows were slightly less than 5/16 the following happened:
* Upon removing the last arrow for cutting the horn groove the collet jaws had the grip of death
* When straightening the collapsed and fatigued collet jaws one snapped
*investigating further the collapsing collet had also stripped the internal thread

Suggestion: fix by using stainless to manufacture the unit and charging more; perhaps use a coarser thread; provide a tool to tighten and loosen; incorporate hex nut flanges to both the body and the design of the collet and; provide marks to judge distance travelled in tightening so the operator could compensate for variances in shaft.

I also noted it was hard to glue horn to bamboo. Tied nocks or wooden overnocks or footing nocks cut with a Drammel is probably the answer for the trad look with boo. Failing that plastic nocks are looking cheaper and easier by the minute.

If you never try things you never know.
Better than having a bow you are making break at the near end.
I am glad I used some overlong arrows as I can cut my losses.
Glad I did not post the other pix.

Oh well more projects ahead.

Kev

[GrahameA]

Hi Kev.

My limited knowledge of Bamboo Arrows seems to say that the use wood plugs for the nock end and then cut the nock in the timber. The nock is not cut directly into the bamboo.

9. Mark the nock end for sinewing (what length will be sinewed; about 1-7/8").

10. Heated fish or hide glue should be put in a small ball in the palm of your hand; twirl the nock end in the glue. Add more glue as necessary.

11. Twirl wet sinew strands onto glued area (evenly).

12. After drying, roughen the sinew.

13. Repeat step 10.

14. After drying, use a tapered bit (looks kind of like a spear point) to hollow out the inside of the nock end; the end result being, only the skin surface of the bamboo attached to the sinew is left.

15. Take wood for nock inserts and taper one end; leave enough untapered wood for the outside of the nock.

16. Trim newly-made inserts to fit each shaft.

17. Apply fish/hide glue to taper of inserts and insert into shaft.

18. After drying, use an abrasive wheel to shape nocks.

19. Use a saw (circular, with a guide, is best) and cut in nock grooves.

20. Flatten ends of nocks on abrasive wheel; also, smooth nock insert sides.

21. File and sand further.

ref http://www.koreanarchery.org/index.php? ... &Itemid=80

I seem to remember Juniper was used and I do expect you to do this whilst sitting, legs crossed on the floor.

Here is some video - start watching at about 2:20

This how I do them. http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3374

[Stickbow Hunter]

Well that is very disappointing indeed Kev. I wonder if any others have had the same problems with this little device.

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

Thanks Grahame.

Jeff, I think it is worth further development.

To be fair I got it from an overseas supplier and it was not their fault.
I wrote up a full report with recommendations and sent it to them. I do love all their other products that I have. Perhaps it has been outsourced for manufacturing and not made to spec. I just did not want someone else to have the same problem. I have volunteered to trial any improved versions. I suspect that given the quality of their other products and the reputed German Engineering Quality ethic that they will at least listen and improve a good concept.

I am on the trail to solving the problem with different technology.

Kev

[Stickbow Hunter]

It's good to let the suppliers know like you have done. It will be interesting to see what reply you get.

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

Jeff it is only fair play.

Kev

[longbowinfected]

Wow.
Same day response from the supplier overseas. An unreserved apology. A promise to send a replacement as soon as one comes to hand from the manufacturer; to forward on my report and to give me a copy of the manufacturer's response.

Full marks to the Longbow Shop and Bear Paw.
I would like to see improvements but that takes time. There is also the chance that the problem is confined to the particular unit. The response was prompt and as fair as I have a right to expect.

Much impressed with the brotherhood of the bent stick. I know the local guys are very good. Nice to know it is an international trend. I guess it helps to be polite.

Kev

[Stickbow Hunter]

Great news Kev; can't ask for much more than that. Excellent Service!!!

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Hi Kevin.

I also noted it was hard to glue horn to bamboo. Tied nocks or wooden overnocks or footing nocks cut with a Drammel is probably the answer for the trad look with boo. Failing that plastic nocks are looking cheaper and easier by the minute.

Hmmmmm.... if you have aspirations of shooting your JimBow in the self bow division remember Len's comments from the other post. I would definitely request that they be applied to you.

[longbowinfected]

No aspirations.
just like the bow the way it is. Just learning more of the craft to tune arrows and to make more natural nocks/fitments. Some like making bows. I like making arrows work rather than as art.

Kev

[jaselpool]

Update

Have chased a few times now Kev and still no direct response from Beier (distributor of Bearpaw products). As soon as I get something from them you'll know mate. I'll put another one in the post for you myself this week and try to get it back from them.

Cheers

Jase

[longbowinfected]

Mate.
I am impressed by your follow up. In your own time, no hurry. I am surprised by the manufacturer's delay in getting back to you, it is at odds with my understanding of the quality of their other products. Such quality could only be driven by a quality assurance program. Such delays are at odds with such programs and are not a good look for consumers.
I gratefully accept your generous offer and if you get no joy from them it would be fair to split the loss. So tell me if they do not come to the party and I will send you a money order for half the cost and postage. At the end of the day you have done nothing wrong so I fail to see why you should bare the full cost.

I did not realise that you were the dealer/supplier. Thank you

Kev

[jaselpool]

Hi Kev

No mate as the supplier the issue rests with me in the first instance so you'll have a new one regardless

Chased them again today and got this response:

Dear Jason,
I’m sorry for our late response. After spoken to Mr. Bodnik, the owner of Bearpaw Products, we must tell you, that you are the only one who ever had a complaint about the nocking tool. It’s hard for us to understand how this could happen by correct use? We would like to find out why this happened. How did you or your Australian customer use the nocking tool? With a drill machine or by hand? Could you please send another photo of the broken part.

Not sure what they mean by drill machine as it's a tool you can only use by hand so as far as I'm concerned the ones that were broken including yours have all dome so by hand. If you could take a quick photo of the broken part if you still have it that would certainly help. I've had a couple of these collets break on me which makes me think there is a possible manufacturing issue. As it seems I'm the only one with any issues maybe it's a batch thing but any help you can give me helps in getting it sorted for you and for me as the dealer. I've also pointed the manufacturers to this forum

Cheers and thanks for the continued support

Jason

[Stickbow Hunter]

I know it has nothing to do with me but I wanted to say thank you to you Jason for helping Kev in the way that you are - excellent service!!!

Jeff

[longbowinfected]

Jason, definitely by hand.....how could you use a power tool?
I binned the broken fragment. I have not binned the block and collett. My wife also uses my shed and benches and she cleans up my work area and she may have binned the lot. She certainly knew the unit was US. Perhaps if Bear Paw had responded earlier it would have been kept. I will check.

If they read my comments I did say that the boo shaft was slightly smaller. Perhaps the extra travel distance added to the problem of a week unit. Considering the collett was not fully screwed in the problem still remains that the collett collapsed, broke and damaged the block thread. Perhaps a warning about undersized shafts might be appropriate.

You have been very open about other collets. I find it difficult to accept that no one else has had a problem. Whilst they have a right to question my use, clearly they are not that receptive as they should be. Most people do not go to the lengths that you and I have in such a constructive positive manner if they do not have a just cause......I expect them to be more positive. They are in jeopardy of losing clients if they persist in being slow and negative.

Kevin

[jaselpool]

Update mate:

first of all. After spoken to Mr. Bodnik again, there is only one more customer who had a problem with the collet of the self nocking tool. So in our opinion it is not a material problem. Please excuse my bad english, I hope I can explain it that you will understand. The nocking tool has an alloy that the elongated flakes are breaking off. That's a usual procedure. It is possible that the material is a little bit brittle at this area, but that's not a manufacturing mistake it is intended.

Well that's as wooly as you'll get. Looks like they are not considering it a fault so all I can do is send you a replacement mate and hope they send me one to put in it's place. I've said all I can to them and given them the proof I think they need so if it goes again please let me know. Also I think I will be emailing Mr Bodnik directly to discuss the matter as I'm not convinced. If you want to email them directly then contact details are on www.bearpaw-products.com. I'll let you know if I hear anything else.

Cheers

Jase

[longbowinfected]

Thanks Jase.

I know you have done the right thing.

How about we call it quits.
Save your money and time/effort.
I am not too sure I really need a tool that is not supported by the manufacturer.
The comments about flaking, only having one problem, along with your couple tell the real story......the emperor has no clothes on.

I come from a quality assurance background. I investigate customer complaints much more efficiently, effectively and promptly than our German friends. For every person that does complain there isalways a greater number that vote with their feet/money. I also try to put myself in my consumer's shoes out of concern for them and to learn more about my products and how to improve them. I suspect not many of these units will sell in Oz. I guess that they do not care. Suppliers such as yourself should take note.

I fail to see the point in contacting them if they pay such little respect to their supplier. Please convey to our German friends my utter lack of respect for their goodwill.
I reserve the right to advise any that ask, that they are not worthy of being supported.

Kev

[Chase N. Nocks]

Kev,

I keep hearing good things about Bear Paw, (and the Longbow Shop)

Does anyone bring their bows into Australia or export them to Australia do you know.

24 hour reply and solution was very fast indeed.

Cheers

Troy

[GrahameA]

Hi Troy.

Kev,

I keep hearing good things about Bear Paw, (and the Longbow Shop)

Does anyone bring their bows into Australia or export them to Australia do you know.

24 hour reply and solution was very fast indeed.

Cheers

Troy

Try John at AMSO128 - he does bring Bearpaw stuff in.

[longbowinfected]

Troy,

except for this snag I wouldsay great gear.
John from AMSO has got a lot of Bearpaw tools in for me and I love them.
It was by impulse flicking through the Longbowshop website one late night that I dealt with Jason. I really liked his website. I would have to say that I am impressed with his attitude and care. He was quite prompt and has been very helpful in a difficult situation.

Both Jason and John are gentlemen. John gets the nod because I can go to his store and have a cuppa with a Tim Tam and the travel isa bit easier but I get the feeling Jason would give you a cuppa too.

Kev

[jcm]

Yes - Jason is a good bloke.
His site is worth a look.
John

[longbowinfected]

John, aren't you supposed to be on leave?

Kev