Hickory backed White Cypress

[Nezwin]

68" ntn, 40#@28" after being shot in.

Not breaking the mould in any design or technique but a nice little shooter. The Cypress smells beautiful as it's worked and looks great.

Still needs tidying up and waxing but might be a month or two before I get back in the shed.

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Imperfect tiller but she still shoots...

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[greybeard]

Looking good Neil, yew might be on a winner with this one.

From the Wood Database;
"Comments: Although this tree is sometimes called by the confusing name White Cypress Pine, it’s not technically a true pine (Pinus genus), though it is included within the broader Cupressaceae family, which includes several genera which encompass the more general term “cypress.”
This Australian softwood species is one of the hardest conifers in the world, rivaling some species of Yew (Taxus spp.) found in the Northern Hemisphere. Consequently, it’s forgivable that this “softwood” species is commonly used for flooring."

For timber properties check the following link;

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... n-cypress/

As the bow is backed was it constructed from a milled board? can only imagine what a split stave would be like.

Daryl.

[perry]

Good stuff Neil, it's been a long time since I saw a Cypress Bow, excellent ! There is a simple elegance to a straight Limbed Bow that is hard to get past.

regards Jacko

[cmoore]

Great work Nez! Bow looks ace
Was the Cypress from a board or stave?

[Nezwin]

Looking good Neil, yew might be on a winner with this one.

From the Wood Database;
"Comments: Although this tree is sometimes called by the confusing name White Cypress Pine, it’s not technically a true pine (Pinus genus), though it is included within the broader Cupressaceae family, which includes several genera which encompass the more general term “cypress.”
This Australian softwood species is one of the hardest conifers in the world, rivaling some species of Yew (Taxus spp.) found in the Northern Hemisphere. Consequently, it’s forgivable that this “softwood” species is commonly used for flooring."

In my research into Australian yew-type timber, I came up with Celery Top Pine but I used the Cypress on the same weekend to (finally) build a decent workbench. As it happens, Cypress is the local, cheap & available timber. I liked working it so I thought I'd see what the properties were like, which lead me to the wood database...

Species Name - Avg. Dried Weight - Mod. Elas - Mod. Bulk

Pac. Yew - 705 - 9.31 - 55.9
C.T.P - 645 - 12 - 56
Aus. Cypress - 650 - 9.32 - 51.5
Eng. Elm - 565 - 7.12 - 32.7

I included the Elm because I recently read (in TBB IV, I think) that this is a species that, given no other timber to ever use, many 'expert' bowyers would pick. I thought it an interesting comment. Anyway, the 'theme' linking these is that they are all 'bendy' (low elastic modulus) with relatively high crushing strength (bulk modulus). Basically, the limb will bend/store a lot of energy for a given weight but also be able to withstand the compression forces that result from that. Looking at the numbers closer, does anyone else see just how close to Yew Aus. Cypress is? It's uncanny. Celery Top is only 30% stiffer than Yew but otherwise very close, too.

I classify these timbers, to myself, as 'soft (to work), bendy, strong', quite the opposite of Ironbark, Spotted Gum, etc, which are very stiff & hard to work. I'm not saying on is better than the other, though, just a matter of preference.

As the bow is backed was it constructed from a milled board? can only imagine what a split stave would be like.

Great work Nez! Bow looks ace
Was the Cypress from a board or stave?

Yes, the bow was from a board.

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$23.12 from the local hardware store for both, but I can get them cheaper directly from the mill in Narrandera. I bought them to send to Canada for a timber swap with a mate - I'm getting some Yew! You must think I have an unhealthy obsession with the species, but the truth is I just have a love for working it. My first, deeply cherished bow was made from Yew.

I have a huge Cypress tree with a clean (branch free) 9'-10' in front of my solar panels that I'll be taking down soon. It's difficult to avoid Cypress around here but not easy to find one that's significantly large enough for clean staves. Only problem is that it twists, but that's just a challenge to overcome. I've a feeling this stuff will take direct or steamed heat well, as CTP & Yew does. I think it's to do with the density, but I'm not sure. Back to the tree - when it comes down I'll be splitting it to staves (and a few slabs for tables ) I will be passing a few on. At a guess, you could probably keep the sapwood on and have the nice contrast, but it's just a guess.

Good stuff Neil, it's been a long time since I saw a Cypress Bow, excellent ! There is a simple elegance to a straight Limbed Bow that is hard to get past.

regards Jacko

Thanks, Jacko! I don't do a whole lot of straight bows but they grow on ya. Still not happy with the tiller - too much bend at the fades and the right, outer tip is a bit stiff, but I'll persevere. Overall the tiller is quite 'arc-ish', so not perfect but not bad. A lot easier when you use ground laminates!

[Muz1970]

Very nice, love that grain

[yeoman]

That timber looks almost delicious. Like toffee and caramel oozed across a flat plane.

Would this be the same species as that seen in the fence palings at Bunnings and whatnot? I'd always dismissed it out of hand for being 'too piney'. But with a success like that, and with early indications showing it being somewhat similar to Yew, it'd be folly not to give it a try.

I've only ever seen it as 900 mm fence palings up here. I'll see if I can find a straight-enough-grained piece to do some bend tests on to see how it compares to Yew tested under the same conditions.

I might have to commission you to get me a couple of good sized boards from down your way.

Was the hickory backing from that massive board you bought when you were up here?

[Gringa Bows]

Looks good Nez

[Nezwin]

Would this be the same species as that seen in the fence palings at Bunnings and whatnot? I'd always dismissed it out of hand for being 'too piney'. But with a success like that, and with early indications showing it being somewhat similar to Yew, it'd be folly not to give it a try.

Can't say I know, I'm afraid. I'd imagine it is the same species, probably. Cypress is very rot resistant & cheap to harvest, so it's likely the same. You'll be in for a treat while working it - the smell is goooorgeous

I've only ever seen it as 900 mm fence palings up here. I'll see if I can find a straight-enough-grained piece to do some bend tests on to see how it compares to Yew tested under the same conditions.

Hmmmm, not sure how it would do in a bend test. Without backing I think this species would be pretty disastrous - there would be grain run-offs all over the place. But with a backing to lock the tensioned side of the grain down it should be pretty fair in compression. Having said all of that, I'm sure your test accounts for that so I'd be very keen to see your results.

I might have to commission you to get me a couple of good sized boards from down your way.

Anytime! They're cheap as chips and, if heat-bending works out, I'll be heading over to Narrandera to get a larger quantity, cheaper.

Was the hickory backing from that massive board you bought when you were up here?

Indeed it was, two 1/8" thick by 1.5" wide lengths from the 1m length and spliced at the centre. The 2m length is a bugger to get through the table saw so I need a mate to help! I love the stuff though, very nice to use timber backings as opposed to composite or bamboo backings (not that there's anything wrong with them, but you catch my drift). I read in TBBIV that Tim Baker rates White Oak as comparable to Hickory for a backing, so that might be an option at some point too. I made a small 20lb bow for one of my bosses kids with a Red Oak backing (Spotted Gum core & belly) which he's still shooting, so there's a few options out there. Would be great if we had a native equivalent... A strong, tension-resistant timber that works well as a backing...

[yeoman]

Hence my search for a really straight grained piece. Might be impossible to find, but I'll look nonetheless. If I can't find a straight piece, I'll back it something. Thin layer of bamboo or timber or some such. One way or another I'll test its elastic modulus and working strain (appropriate to a bow) to compare with other woods.

When do your bending experiments begin? If steam/dry heat don't work out, you could always try a kerf. Laminate a shim of cypress in the kerf & onlookers might never know how it was done.

I thought you had a nice big bandsaw to cut lams with? In any case, if you make a couple of saw horses the same height as your table saw table (feel weird to write that), then you've got a proxy auxiliary outfeed table.

I understand what you mean about bamboo backings. It's easy to find bamboo poles. The first half of preparation is pretty easy. They look tremendous. But a consistent thickness: they are not. It'd be great to have a wood backing that I can just lightly sand and glue on. Done. I have some logs of Elm I'm planning on sawing up into backing strips. Just as soon as I get one of these: http://presentoutlook.com/wp-content/up ... d-tuit.jpg

Anyway...this is your story.

Planning to make another sometime soon?

[Nezwin]

When do your bending experiments begin? If steam/dry heat don't work out, you could always try a kerf. Laminate a shim of cypress in the kerf & onlookers might never know how it was done.

I've not done any kerfing yet, so it's definitely there as an option (and I am curious...) but it will be a while before I get any bows done. I'm off to Melbourne next weekend and then having knee surgery - a semi-reconstruction - on the 25th, so will be off my feet for a month. It's going to be hell having all that time off work, only a dozen metres from the workshop, and not able to use the tools!

But I've a feeling this stuff will take heat well - it's similar density & YM to Yew & Celery Top, both of which take direct heat very well.

I thought you had a nice big bandsaw to cut lams with? In any case, if you make a couple of saw horses the same height as your table saw table (feel weird to write that), then you've got a proxy auxiliary outfeed table.

I do but I prefer the table saw, it's a better saw overall to the bandsaw. Bit of a 6-of-one, half-dozen of the other situation, really. The biggest problem cutting the Hickory is the board itself - it has a warp in it, so it doesn't sit flat to the table. Not the end of the world, just less than perfect, and with the size & weight of the massive board is makes getting a decent cut awkward. The thickness sander more than makes up for my lack of skill though!

I understand what you mean about bamboo backings. It's easy to find bamboo poles. The first half of preparation is pretty easy. They look tremendous. But a consistent thickness: they are not. It'd be great to have a wood backing that I can just lightly sand and glue on. Done. I have some logs of Elm I'm planning on sawing up into backing strips. Just as soon as I get one of these: http://presentoutlook.com/wp-content/up ... d-tuit.jpg

I know the feeling! A million jobs and not a whole lot of time... I have pondered those Elm staves you have, I'm hunting for Elm now, after reading the comments about it being the 'favourite' wood of a lot of old timey bow makers. The Scandinavians love it and the Holmegaarde Bow was quarter-sawn Elm, I believe. I still struggle somewhat with my bamboo backings but I'm getting there. Pazienza, as I am repeatedly told.

Planning to make another sometime soon?

I'd like to but time will be limited for the next few months. I hope to get a 64" recurve done next, so we'll see. I'm sending one of those boards overseas, so we may have some more examples of it being used by someone else... I'd be interested in your own experiments

[hunterguy1991]

I know a lot of guys in Europe that are using Wych-Elm for bows and swear by it... I have not been able to find a source but would be VERY interested in getting some of that or even Red or White Elm from the US if possible...

What species are the Elm logs you have Dave? I'd love to try an Elm warbow

Colin

[yeoman]

I'm not sure exactly what species they are. They were sourced from Ballarat. From this, my first guess would be one of the English elms.

[yeoman]

A couple more questions on this bow, if I may:

How wide is it, and how much set has it taken?

Does this timber plane at all well, even with the very twisty grain?

[Nezwin]

How wide is it, and how much set has it taken?

Does this timber plane at all well, even with the very twisty grain?

The bow is 70" total, 68" ntn, 14" centre stiff section/handle. Re: the stiff section, it's difficult to really quantify it as 14" as I'd say about 2" of the fades would be bending, given the very gradual transition I used, but the handle has not detached from the main stave, so this fade-pattern Dennis recommended seems to work.

1.5" wide at the fades tapering to 1.25" at 12" from nocks where it then tapers down to 0.5" at the nocks.

I started the thickness at 5/8" at the fades and 1/2" at the nocks but I ended up tillering another 1/16"-1/8" or so out of it toward the tips, I reckon. I'm really surprised how much had to be taken off and it's still bending too much at the fades!

Has taken about 3/4" set after a hundred or so arrows and a few days rest.

I didn't use a plane for the build, I'm afraid, so can't comment accurately on how it would respond to the tool. At a guess I wouldn't imagine it would be an issue, based on the 'feel' as I worked it.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Neil,

I have always wondered about the local cypress. You are right about the appearance of the stuff. They call it Murray Pine here in Tocumwal. It has a remarkable similarity to Yew in grain structure but a lot lighter in colour until it ages. The Yew I have here is a good bit more coppery in colour in the heartwood. I think you have gotten it right with your backing and it will be interesting to see how it wears and whether or not it had any tendency to fret.

It would be very interesting to see how it goes in an ELB where the compression loads are much higher. I have also sent you an PM.

[Nezwin]

It'd be great to have a wood backing that I can just lightly sand and glue on. Done. I have some logs of Elm I'm planning on sawing up into backing strips.

Just another quick comment on this - Elm is an advised backing by many American bowyers, so that should work well. I've also used Red Oak (cheap, easily available) for a backing strip on a kids Spotted Gum bow. It was only 20lb @ 28", so not in the slightest bit representative, but it would be interesting to see how far you can go safely with straight-grained laminate of Red Oak as a backing. Much cheaper for learning with than Hickory or White Oak. Sam Harper states that you can go to 'about 50lb' with a Red Oak Board Bow (unbacked), so that might be a limit, although I'd imagine you'd want a very good grain for that. Ofcourse, the belly timber properties would play a large part in the effectiveness - something like Ironbark being a lot more powerful than say, Red Oak or Cypress.

Perhaps I'll do another of these Cypress bows with a Red Oak backing? Now THAT would be a cheap & straight-forward build for a beginner. The trick will be to not make it too heavy, I believe.

It would be very interesting to see how it goes in an ELB where the compression loads are much higher.

That might be a good build for our friend in Woodford, QLD...

It's encouraging to find one of our local timbers (aside from the known Ironbark, which is everywhere in the Riverina, particularly so in my area) to have some potential as a bow wood. Only time will tell if it holds up but I would be very interested to read of others experiences with the material.

[yeoman]

It's good to see you back on the boards, Dennis!

[yeoman]

I would say, based on Perry's comment above, that people have indeed made bows from White Cypress before. I reckon we should press him for more details.

Perry? Anything to add?

[perry]

Only that back through the mid and late 90's when Glenn Newell, Cliff Turpin, Harry Long, Keith Keddy, Me and a dozen or more others used to hold/attend Bow Making Workshops up at Omaru Archery Park near Landsborough. It was a nice Property owned by one of the great Characters of Australian Archery Bob Doring Bob sold it Years ago.

Off on a Tangent but I'll never forget Bob getting very exited watching us make Bows and he brought down a Bow he called his Japanese Bow .MMMmmmm Interesting, it was Bundles of Bamboo of various lengths he'd cut from his Garden tied together and then lathered in Epoxy

We made Bows from or brought along Bows we'd made in between Workshops from just about any Australian Timber you could name. Harry was American and had Bows he'd made from Yew, Osage and the like. One Gentleman who has since Died had a fondness for Cypress Pine, I don't recall ever using it but I may have ???? This Gentleman made one Bow that we set out to destroy. We braced it Backwards and Forwards, drew it to various full Draw Lengths, just out and out abused it and it did not break. i have a vague recollection it was a wide Pyramid Limb Design but it could also have been a Mollegabet. Maybe another Cypress Bow he made was. Long time ago Folks

I might have some Photo's somewhere, Hey Chasin Nocks [ Troy ] you attended one or 2 Workshops do you have any Photo's ??

regards Perry