long time lurker here.
Finally getting around to carvin me a stick(well, boardy for my first go).
Anyone used NZ beech...?
lo peeps.
Moderator: Moderators
Good to see you here.
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TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
Silent Bugler
I tried making English longbows out of the local timbers ( I live in Tasmania) and in total ignorance I used boards from the local timber yards.
They all failed. I tried Myrtle, Celery Top Pine, Blackwood, Tas Oak. I tied laminating them together and backing them with glass laminates I made myself.
The only one which came close to working was Huon Pine backed with bamboo.
I suggest that you do the following if you want any hope of success:
Buy a copy of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible, all three volumes and read it several times. I think you live in Mornington. If so, the Technical Bookshop in Swanston Street normally stocks it.
Buy some bamboo. Spotlight sells bamboo blinds of several types. The one you want is the rounded outer strips with the nodes showing. Do not under any circumstances plane or sand the nodes flat.
Here is another supplier:
http://www.bamboo-oz.com.au/pricepoles. ... TS-PALINGS
Start off with a flat bow pattern, the TBB has several, and back it with bamboo. This will give you the greatest probability that the bow will not fail.
I don't make self bows but others who use this site do and they can probably give you more help.
Over to you, guys.
I tried making English longbows out of the local timbers ( I live in Tasmania) and in total ignorance I used boards from the local timber yards.
They all failed. I tried Myrtle, Celery Top Pine, Blackwood, Tas Oak. I tied laminating them together and backing them with glass laminates I made myself.
The only one which came close to working was Huon Pine backed with bamboo.
I suggest that you do the following if you want any hope of success:
Buy a copy of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible, all three volumes and read it several times. I think you live in Mornington. If so, the Technical Bookshop in Swanston Street normally stocks it.
Buy some bamboo. Spotlight sells bamboo blinds of several types. The one you want is the rounded outer strips with the nodes showing. Do not under any circumstances plane or sand the nodes flat.
Here is another supplier:
http://www.bamboo-oz.com.au/pricepoles. ... TS-PALINGS
Start off with a flat bow pattern, the TBB has several, and back it with bamboo. This will give you the greatest probability that the bow will not fail.
I don't make self bows but others who use this site do and they can probably give you more help.
Over to you, guys.
Norman
Draw, anchor, loose.
Draw, anchor, loose.
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Glenn Newell
Silent Bugler, I haven't ever used NZ Beech but if it is anything like OZ Beech I would think it would be too week to take the compression on the belly.
If you are just starting out building selfbows the best book to buy by far is "The Bent Stick" by Paul Comstock, can't recomed this book highly enough when starting out building selfbows, by all means by the Bowyers Bibles but I feel that there is good information in there for selfbowyes once you have made a few selfbows whereas the Bent Stick with Pauls descripition of the over built bow will have you shooting a selfbow out of almost any sort of timber.
When you have made a few you will know what timber works and what wont. You can buy hardwwod decking out of spotted gum from the timber yard, just look at it for straight grain on the flat and on the edge, it makes a good bend in the handle English style selfbow. Some of the asian decking boards work well also.
I like ironbark for selfbows, the best selfbow I ever made was out of a discarded flitch from a sleeper cutter, it was a stiff handle flatbow-paddle bow design with half sapwood and half heart wood 66" long 55#@28" the bow only took 10mm of set, it's had a lot of work and shot a lot of arrows.
Keep us informed on how the selfbows are going...Glenn...
If you are just starting out building selfbows the best book to buy by far is "The Bent Stick" by Paul Comstock, can't recomed this book highly enough when starting out building selfbows, by all means by the Bowyers Bibles but I feel that there is good information in there for selfbowyes once you have made a few selfbows whereas the Bent Stick with Pauls descripition of the over built bow will have you shooting a selfbow out of almost any sort of timber.
When you have made a few you will know what timber works and what wont. You can buy hardwwod decking out of spotted gum from the timber yard, just look at it for straight grain on the flat and on the edge, it makes a good bend in the handle English style selfbow. Some of the asian decking boards work well also.
I like ironbark for selfbows, the best selfbow I ever made was out of a discarded flitch from a sleeper cutter, it was a stiff handle flatbow-paddle bow design with half sapwood and half heart wood 66" long 55#@28" the bow only took 10mm of set, it's had a lot of work and shot a lot of arrows.
Keep us informed on how the selfbows are going...Glenn...
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TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
Cheers.
The Bent Stick & The Bowyer's bible are now on the shopping list.
I've tried tassie oak for a lil bow for my son, but it failed spectacularly and I ended up spending $35 on a nifty litle fiberglass job for him. The NZ beach is a heavier denser wood that the tas oak, and seems harder again than Mytle.
Question: is Tassie Myrtle the same species as the Mytle Beech in the Otways...?
The best Stick I've ever used was a branch of local (Mornington Peninsula) tee tree. Mighty be worth tracking down a trunk and trying that out.
arrrrrgggghhh, soo much wood, so little time.
I'll let you guys know how the beech pans out, should have some time for a play on the weekend.
Tim
The Bent Stick & The Bowyer's bible are now on the shopping list.
I've tried tassie oak for a lil bow for my son, but it failed spectacularly and I ended up spending $35 on a nifty litle fiberglass job for him. The NZ beach is a heavier denser wood that the tas oak, and seems harder again than Mytle.
Question: is Tassie Myrtle the same species as the Mytle Beech in the Otways...?
The best Stick I've ever used was a branch of local (Mornington Peninsula) tee tree. Mighty be worth tracking down a trunk and trying that out.
arrrrrgggghhh, soo much wood, so little time.
I'll let you guys know how the beech pans out, should have some time for a play on the weekend.
Tim
I was in NZ at Milford Sound years ago and was surprised at how similar it is to the West Coast of Tasmania where Myrtle grows by the hectare. There was a striking similarity between what the Kiwis call Beech and what we call Myrtle. There were differences in the leaf structure so they were not the same variety.
I found that Myrtle deforms plastically and then it breaks. Don't be surprised if this happens to your stave.
If you are after some of the species Glen Newell mentioned above, try Mathews Timber in Nunawading. They have American woods such as Rock Maple, Red Cherry, Red Oak and some Hickory. They also have Australian timbers such as Spotted Gum, Brush Box, and Iron Bark.
I found that Myrtle deforms plastically and then it breaks. Don't be surprised if this happens to your stave.
If you are after some of the species Glen Newell mentioned above, try Mathews Timber in Nunawading. They have American woods such as Rock Maple, Red Cherry, Red Oak and some Hickory. They also have Australian timbers such as Spotted Gum, Brush Box, and Iron Bark.
Norman
Draw, anchor, loose.
Draw, anchor, loose.
Tim,
Tassy myrtle is the same species as myrtle beech that occurs in some parts of Victoria - Nothofagus cunninghamii.
Glenn is correct in stating that our beech (Qld & NSW) is white beech and I doubt it would shape up much as a selfbow - too soft.
If however as you have indicated that NZ beech is heavier and denser than tassy oak then it may hold good potential as a suitable timber for selfbows and would be well worth a try.
I also recommend Comstock's book, and I favour trying a few native species over species from abroad. The more informations we can collect about the suitability of our timbers for various applications in archery the better.
Good luck
MarkP
Tassy myrtle is the same species as myrtle beech that occurs in some parts of Victoria - Nothofagus cunninghamii.
Glenn is correct in stating that our beech (Qld & NSW) is white beech and I doubt it would shape up much as a selfbow - too soft.
If however as you have indicated that NZ beech is heavier and denser than tassy oak then it may hold good potential as a suitable timber for selfbows and would be well worth a try.
I also recommend Comstock's book, and I favour trying a few native species over species from abroad. The more informations we can collect about the suitability of our timbers for various applications in archery the better.
Good luck
MarkP
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Dennis La Varenne
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:56 pm
- Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia
To TheSilentBugler,
Firstly, I suggest that anyone wanting to build selfbows take Glenn Newell’s Mark P’s advice and read up on Paul Comstock’s book ‘The Bent Stick’ as one of the most practical and down-to-earth guides to selfbow building.
My further suggestion is to forget running around looking for Northern Hemisphere bow woods. Indigenous woods are every bit as good in mechanical properties.
So far as Myrtle is concerned (aka Myrtle Beech), as Mark P pointed out, it is a local variety (cunninghamii) of the genus Nothofagus which is found in Eastern Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania and South America and is a very old species of tree which I understand from some of my earlier geological reading, may be as old as Gondwana.
Also, Tasmanian Oak is neither Oak nor particularly Tasmanian. It is Mountain Ash which grows in both Tasmania and Victoria and goes under the scientific name of Eucalyptus regnans.
So far as the mechanical properties of both Myrtle Beech and Mountain Ash are concerned, please note the following brief definitions, and compare the four local woods with the most famous North American varieties. The figures are taken from the US Forestry Department and Keith Bootle’s Wood in Australia.
ADD is Air Dried Density (weight) of wood at 12% moisture content in kg/cubic metres. This lets you compare approximately how big a bow can be made for a given draw weight from any wood.
MoR is modulus of rupture or the compression force required to rupture fibres in Megapaschals. It is important for bow bellies.
MoE is modulus of elasticity or the stretching force required to rip fibres apart in Gigapaschals. This is important for bow backs.
H is hardness factor or how well wood will take knocks and scrapes in kiloNewtons.
Mountain Ash (Eucalyptus regnans) ADD-680; MoR-110; MoE-16; H-4.9.
Myrtle Beech (Nothofagus cunninghamii) ADD-700; MoR-108; MoE-14; H-5.9.
Spotted Gum (Eucalyptus maculata) ADD-950; MoR-150; MoE-23; H-11.
Victorian Red Ironbark (Eucalyptus sideroxylon) ADD-1130; MoR-135; MoE-17; H-13.
Yew (Taxus brevifolia) ADD-650; MoR-104; MoE-9.3; H-7.0.
Osage Orange (Maclura pomifera) ADD-950; MoR-177; MoE-13; H-15 (??).
Lemonwood (Calycophyllum candidissimum) ADD-800; MoR-154; MoE-16; H-8.6.
Hickory (Carya spp.) ADD-800; MoR-132; MoE-16; H-9.5.
These figures are used for commercial purposes, but serve as a reasonable comparative basis for our purposes.
You will note that two Australian species lack only hardness, and this can vary from individual tree to tree, but I cannot see why they would be inferior in any way for bowmaking if good bowmaking skills are used. Many indigenous woods are very hard indeed.
I suspect that if failures resulted, they were not the fault of the wood species. I have used Queensland Red Ash (Alphitonia excelsa) which has the following properties ADD 740; MoR 134; MoE 19; H 8.4 which is comparable to the Myrtle Beech and Mountain Ash and makes very fine selfbows.
So far as making board bows is concerned, with modern drying techniques, the boards should be of good quality so long as the lay of the grain is read well.
Glenn Newell once wrote a good article in the Archery Action about selection of Australian timbers and how we have the considerable advantage of perennial hardwoods which have very little difference in density between the summer growth and spring growth because growth is governed more by the Australian cycles of drought and wet rather than by season which is not nearly so defined as in the Northern Hemisphere.
Consequently, we can probably get away with mild murder of grain violation which would certainly be deadly on many northern woods by the way they describe them.
Notwithstanding, boards should always be quarter-sawn, which means that the growth rings at the ends of the board should be run as vertically as possible and on the broad side of the board, there should be growth ring lines running the full length of the board and not running off the board at all if possible. If they run across the board, that will define the way the bow will lay.
Obviously, full length growth ring lines will enable more bowstaves to be gotten from a single board. Have a look at the following diagrams which will explain what I mean.
If any particular wood shows a tendency to fret and chrysal on the belly, then it needs to be made much wider, thinner and/or longer - in other words, bigger, or overbuilt as Paul Comstock advises.
Bigger bows are no disadvantage performance-wise and are the equals of shorter bows and often better as Tim Baker demonstrates in Volume 1, Ch 3 of Traditional Bowyer’s Bible. Their only drawback is that they may be a little more trouble in thick scrub.
There is also the old bowyer’s trick of trapezoiding the limbs where you put a bevel on the outside edges of the limbs which make the back a little narrower than the belly in order to allow a broader belly to take more compression load safely. A back which is about ¼ inch narrower than the belly at the flares and tapering to the tip is quite adequate.
Lastly, Ferrets Archery Web Page at
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcheryweb ... oards.msnw
which Erron put me onto is excellent and recommended, but needs some experience to entirely understand what is actually going on.
Finally, have a look a the attachment re boardbows and grain orientation. I hope it helps. Ferret's pics on his site are not as clear as could be because of the camera flash.
Glenn N and Mark P are professional woodies and may like to comment.
Dennis La Varenne
Firstly, I suggest that anyone wanting to build selfbows take Glenn Newell’s Mark P’s advice and read up on Paul Comstock’s book ‘The Bent Stick’ as one of the most practical and down-to-earth guides to selfbow building.
My further suggestion is to forget running around looking for Northern Hemisphere bow woods. Indigenous woods are every bit as good in mechanical properties.
So far as Myrtle is concerned (aka Myrtle Beech), as Mark P pointed out, it is a local variety (cunninghamii) of the genus Nothofagus which is found in Eastern Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania and South America and is a very old species of tree which I understand from some of my earlier geological reading, may be as old as Gondwana.
Also, Tasmanian Oak is neither Oak nor particularly Tasmanian. It is Mountain Ash which grows in both Tasmania and Victoria and goes under the scientific name of Eucalyptus regnans.
So far as the mechanical properties of both Myrtle Beech and Mountain Ash are concerned, please note the following brief definitions, and compare the four local woods with the most famous North American varieties. The figures are taken from the US Forestry Department and Keith Bootle’s Wood in Australia.
ADD is Air Dried Density (weight) of wood at 12% moisture content in kg/cubic metres. This lets you compare approximately how big a bow can be made for a given draw weight from any wood.
MoR is modulus of rupture or the compression force required to rupture fibres in Megapaschals. It is important for bow bellies.
MoE is modulus of elasticity or the stretching force required to rip fibres apart in Gigapaschals. This is important for bow backs.
H is hardness factor or how well wood will take knocks and scrapes in kiloNewtons.
Mountain Ash (Eucalyptus regnans) ADD-680; MoR-110; MoE-16; H-4.9.
Myrtle Beech (Nothofagus cunninghamii) ADD-700; MoR-108; MoE-14; H-5.9.
Spotted Gum (Eucalyptus maculata) ADD-950; MoR-150; MoE-23; H-11.
Victorian Red Ironbark (Eucalyptus sideroxylon) ADD-1130; MoR-135; MoE-17; H-13.
Yew (Taxus brevifolia) ADD-650; MoR-104; MoE-9.3; H-7.0.
Osage Orange (Maclura pomifera) ADD-950; MoR-177; MoE-13; H-15 (??).
Lemonwood (Calycophyllum candidissimum) ADD-800; MoR-154; MoE-16; H-8.6.
Hickory (Carya spp.) ADD-800; MoR-132; MoE-16; H-9.5.
These figures are used for commercial purposes, but serve as a reasonable comparative basis for our purposes.
You will note that two Australian species lack only hardness, and this can vary from individual tree to tree, but I cannot see why they would be inferior in any way for bowmaking if good bowmaking skills are used. Many indigenous woods are very hard indeed.
I suspect that if failures resulted, they were not the fault of the wood species. I have used Queensland Red Ash (Alphitonia excelsa) which has the following properties ADD 740; MoR 134; MoE 19; H 8.4 which is comparable to the Myrtle Beech and Mountain Ash and makes very fine selfbows.
So far as making board bows is concerned, with modern drying techniques, the boards should be of good quality so long as the lay of the grain is read well.
Glenn Newell once wrote a good article in the Archery Action about selection of Australian timbers and how we have the considerable advantage of perennial hardwoods which have very little difference in density between the summer growth and spring growth because growth is governed more by the Australian cycles of drought and wet rather than by season which is not nearly so defined as in the Northern Hemisphere.
Consequently, we can probably get away with mild murder of grain violation which would certainly be deadly on many northern woods by the way they describe them.
Notwithstanding, boards should always be quarter-sawn, which means that the growth rings at the ends of the board should be run as vertically as possible and on the broad side of the board, there should be growth ring lines running the full length of the board and not running off the board at all if possible. If they run across the board, that will define the way the bow will lay.
Obviously, full length growth ring lines will enable more bowstaves to be gotten from a single board. Have a look at the following diagrams which will explain what I mean.
If any particular wood shows a tendency to fret and chrysal on the belly, then it needs to be made much wider, thinner and/or longer - in other words, bigger, or overbuilt as Paul Comstock advises.
Bigger bows are no disadvantage performance-wise and are the equals of shorter bows and often better as Tim Baker demonstrates in Volume 1, Ch 3 of Traditional Bowyer’s Bible. Their only drawback is that they may be a little more trouble in thick scrub.
There is also the old bowyer’s trick of trapezoiding the limbs where you put a bevel on the outside edges of the limbs which make the back a little narrower than the belly in order to allow a broader belly to take more compression load safely. A back which is about ¼ inch narrower than the belly at the flares and tapering to the tip is quite adequate.
Lastly, Ferrets Archery Web Page at
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcheryweb ... oards.msnw
which Erron put me onto is excellent and recommended, but needs some experience to entirely understand what is actually going on.
Finally, have a look a the attachment re boardbows and grain orientation. I hope it helps. Ferret's pics on his site are not as clear as could be because of the camera flash.
Glenn N and Mark P are professional woodies and may like to comment.
Dennis La Varenne
- Attachments
-
- Grain direction on boards.jpg (71.56 KiB) Viewed 6848 times
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
-
Dennis La Varenne
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:56 pm
- Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia
Erron,
When Leonardo was giving me lessons on perspective, I was more interested in perving on that Mona Lisa chick and I didn't pay the attention that I should have.
But, no, the bows are supposed to be laying straight to the grain, not across it. I copied and pasted one figure in 3 different positions and tried to rotate it in Photoshop.
The idea of this drawing was to show how you could get more staves out of one straight grained board than one where the grain ran across the board as in the second picture.
That is what happens when you stay up late doing these things.
Anyway, I hope that helps. Now I am going for a feed.
Dennis La Varenne
When Leonardo was giving me lessons on perspective, I was more interested in perving on that Mona Lisa chick and I didn't pay the attention that I should have.
But, no, the bows are supposed to be laying straight to the grain, not across it. I copied and pasted one figure in 3 different positions and tried to rotate it in Photoshop.
The idea of this drawing was to show how you could get more staves out of one straight grained board than one where the grain ran across the board as in the second picture.
That is what happens when you stay up late doing these things.
Anyway, I hope that helps. Now I am going for a feed.
Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
-
TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
whoa...!
Some info to digest there Dennis, you must bore the pants off peeps at parties
j/k mate, thanks for the info, I spent hours browsing Ferret's pages.
got the handle glued on a couple last night, one at 68" and another at 60" for the lad, fingers crossed I'll get some shaping done over the weekend(got a shiny new bandsaw waiting at home)
A good sign, a thin piece of scrap(~1/16" at the ends ~1/8" in the centre) was left after I ripped the board, I can bend it almost to touch itself at 2.1M after which it whips back to dead straight. Looks promising.
Some info to digest there Dennis, you must bore the pants off peeps at parties
j/k mate, thanks for the info, I spent hours browsing Ferret's pages.
got the handle glued on a couple last night, one at 68" and another at 60" for the lad, fingers crossed I'll get some shaping done over the weekend(got a shiny new bandsaw waiting at home)
A good sign, a thin piece of scrap(~1/16" at the ends ~1/8" in the centre) was left after I ripped the board, I can bend it almost to touch itself at 2.1M after which it whips back to dead straight. Looks promising.
-
TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
-
Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
I made one string from Linen. I bought a roll of linen thread, about 4k long. I waxed it and made a beautiful flemish twist string with a timber hitch at the bottom end. It took me over 4 hours and the end result was a piece of linen cord. Adrian Elliott Hodgkin in his book "The Archer's Craft" tells how. Try your local library.
You will need to wax the threads with beeswax. Try the paint department of your local hardware store. You need the solid blocks, not the paste polish.
I would wash the fabric thoroughly to remove any dressing from the thread. You maay also find that the threads are badly crimped and will not straighten easily. You will have to determine the breaking strain of the thread and use enough threads to make a string whose breaking strain is 5 times the draw weight of your bow. Whatever you do, reinforce both ends with double the number of strands of the main string. The linen will not be as durable as Dacron.
Good Luck
You will need to wax the threads with beeswax. Try the paint department of your local hardware store. You need the solid blocks, not the paste polish.
I would wash the fabric thoroughly to remove any dressing from the thread. You maay also find that the threads are badly crimped and will not straighten easily. You will have to determine the breaking strain of the thread and use enough threads to make a string whose breaking strain is 5 times the draw weight of your bow. Whatever you do, reinforce both ends with double the number of strands of the main string. The linen will not be as durable as Dacron.
Good Luck
Norman
Draw, anchor, loose.
Draw, anchor, loose.
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Dennis La Varenne
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:56 pm
- Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia
SilentBugler,
Norman's advice re linen strings is sound.
Also, as I was once instructed by an old bloke who shot in the days of such strings, keep them moist for DURABILITY and STRENGTH. Linen is stronger when it is moist unlike you sometimes read. The old blokes used to keep spares in a tobacco tin together with a green leaf to maintain the humidity.
The other thing is that once linen or any vegetable source string has locked in after making and bracing on a bow, it has no further stretch at all and is like Fastflight. Dacron has a lot of give and stretch. After your linen string has locked in, it will not need to be stretched each time you brace your bow like Dacron does.
To work out how many strands you will need, tie a short length to a nail and loop the other end over the hook on a lightweight fishing scale and pull it till it breaks, noting the pounds/kilos. Divide that weight into your bow draw weight for the number of strands and multiply that number by 5 for the total number of strands for your bow weight.
A linen string will be a bit thicker and heavier. Reinforce the loops as Norman suggested.
Dennis La Varenne
Norman's advice re linen strings is sound.
Also, as I was once instructed by an old bloke who shot in the days of such strings, keep them moist for DURABILITY and STRENGTH. Linen is stronger when it is moist unlike you sometimes read. The old blokes used to keep spares in a tobacco tin together with a green leaf to maintain the humidity.
The other thing is that once linen or any vegetable source string has locked in after making and bracing on a bow, it has no further stretch at all and is like Fastflight. Dacron has a lot of give and stretch. After your linen string has locked in, it will not need to be stretched each time you brace your bow like Dacron does.
To work out how many strands you will need, tie a short length to a nail and loop the other end over the hook on a lightweight fishing scale and pull it till it breaks, noting the pounds/kilos. Divide that weight into your bow draw weight for the number of strands and multiply that number by 5 for the total number of strands for your bow weight.
A linen string will be a bit thicker and heavier. Reinforce the loops as Norman suggested.
Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
-
TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
-
Dennis La Varenne
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:56 pm
- Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia
To SilentBugler and other intending board bowyers -
When trying to make board bows with glued on handles, the following may be of some assistance in helping prevent the glued-on handles letting go and popping off later. I had a good look at Ferrets site on the issue and he does the same thing but doesn’t point it out as a potential problem. It was well know to all the pre-fibreglass bowyers and you can see it in pictures of their bows.
Below are 4 line drawings of a glued on handle board bow. Pictures 1 and 2 are the correct way to do it and pictures 3 and 4 are the wrong way but most commonly done method.
The principle is that the glued on handle MUST NOT take any of the bending strain.
This will avoid putting any shear stress on the glue line and forcing it to pop off later. Most modern glues are very good in this regard, but prevention is better than cure as they say.
In each of the line drawings, the red-colour shows the handle block and the side outline of the bow profile.
You will note that in diagrams 1 and 3, the limb thickness taper commences in two different places. In diagram 2 it commences at b, well outside and slightly below the handle block, whereas in diagram 3 it commences at c where the handle block feathers into the bow limb.
Diagrams 2 and 4 are the resulting bow profiles. Diagram 2 is correct and diagram 4 is wrong for the following reason. When the diagram 4 bow is drawn, the limb will bend right up to c where the abrupt thickening of the handle block will try to stop it. Point c will become a place of very high compression and shearing forces which very often will pop the handle block off the bow and break it.
Diagram 2 is correct because the board which was selected was thick enough to allow for a full draw weight bow without the handle block. The handle block is only an added extra to deepen the grip and takes no bending load. This is because of the long radius A from point f down to point b which is similar to the fibreglass style longbows today with their long fadeouts. This particular design prevents most of the compression and shearing forces of the belly from ever reaching the joint at c.
I hope this is useful.
Dennis La Varenne
When trying to make board bows with glued on handles, the following may be of some assistance in helping prevent the glued-on handles letting go and popping off later. I had a good look at Ferrets site on the issue and he does the same thing but doesn’t point it out as a potential problem. It was well know to all the pre-fibreglass bowyers and you can see it in pictures of their bows.
Below are 4 line drawings of a glued on handle board bow. Pictures 1 and 2 are the correct way to do it and pictures 3 and 4 are the wrong way but most commonly done method.
The principle is that the glued on handle MUST NOT take any of the bending strain.
This will avoid putting any shear stress on the glue line and forcing it to pop off later. Most modern glues are very good in this regard, but prevention is better than cure as they say.
In each of the line drawings, the red-colour shows the handle block and the side outline of the bow profile.
You will note that in diagrams 1 and 3, the limb thickness taper commences in two different places. In diagram 2 it commences at b, well outside and slightly below the handle block, whereas in diagram 3 it commences at c where the handle block feathers into the bow limb.
Diagrams 2 and 4 are the resulting bow profiles. Diagram 2 is correct and diagram 4 is wrong for the following reason. When the diagram 4 bow is drawn, the limb will bend right up to c where the abrupt thickening of the handle block will try to stop it. Point c will become a place of very high compression and shearing forces which very often will pop the handle block off the bow and break it.
Diagram 2 is correct because the board which was selected was thick enough to allow for a full draw weight bow without the handle block. The handle block is only an added extra to deepen the grip and takes no bending load. This is because of the long radius A from point f down to point b which is similar to the fibreglass style longbows today with their long fadeouts. This particular design prevents most of the compression and shearing forces of the belly from ever reaching the joint at c.
I hope this is useful.
Dennis La Varenne
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Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
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TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
If the handle does spring off, here is an effective repair. I have not tried it myself because I do not make self bows. I picked it up from an American web site. (where else?)
Glue the grip to the bow. When dry, buy a rawhide dog bone and soak it in water until it is soft and slimy. Lay it out flat and cut it into strips lengthwise. Wrap one or two strips around the ends of the riser. Do not knot them. Tuck the loose ends under the wraps. Put it aside to dry thoroughly. If the web site was correct you will have a shootable bow. If not, you are no worse off.
Good luck
Glue the grip to the bow. When dry, buy a rawhide dog bone and soak it in water until it is soft and slimy. Lay it out flat and cut it into strips lengthwise. Wrap one or two strips around the ends of the riser. Do not knot them. Tuck the loose ends under the wraps. Put it aside to dry thoroughly. If the web site was correct you will have a shootable bow. If not, you are no worse off.
Good luck
Norman
Draw, anchor, loose.
Draw, anchor, loose.
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Dennis La Varenne
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:56 pm
- Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia
Norman,
Another repair for a popped off handle block is to put in a couple of coarse thread wood screws from the back of the bowstave through into the handle block after cleaning up the glue line of old glue and re-gluing the block on. Counter-sink the heads of course.
It is important that the joint at c is feathered out quite a lot so that it will flex if any of the bend goes up into the handle block. The steeper the radius the more rigid will be the handle block and the more likely it is to want to pop off again because the bow proper will want to keep flexing through the joint and against the rigid handle block like a 'bend in the handle' bow. That is what will make is pop off in the first place.
If SilentBugler has laid out his bowstave as in diagrams 1 and 2, he should be OK so long as his glue is good. It wouldn't hurt to still use the wood screws as insurance though. Pre-drill first to prevent splitting.
Related to this topic, I have got an old (???) target bow which I think is Lemonwood, whose handle popped off at some time in its earlier life. The handle block looked like Queensland Hairy Oak as did the handle overlay, but both were badly split. I reglued another handle block on again and made the radius a lot longer and shallower so it feathered out well and it is now OK.
This bow is so old that it has thread wrapping in two places on each limb as a support against splitting or lifting of splinters from the back. The bow is a good 71 inches n-n and feels as though it would draw around 30 lbs.
The upper limb has 1 3/8 inches of string follow and is 36½ inches long and the lower limb has 2 ¼ inches of string follow and is 34½ inches long. It is 1 3/8 wide at the flares and ¾ inch at the nocks and square ended. There are no signs of fretting at all. The bowstave is pretty much absent of any growth rings although the wood fibres run the length of the stave. Tlhe arrisses along the limb edges were well rounded off. The nocks look as though they were cut in with a knife.
The way that it was originally made was the reason its handle and overlay popped off in the first place. The board was only 7/16" at its thickest through the handle and the handle block was only glued on without much of a radius which feathered down to the limbs (a la diagrams 3 and 4 above).
It looks as though its former owner heeled the bow very severely without the appropriate tillering to allow for this kind of grip. If I turn it upside down and cut the longer limb to a similar length, whip the ends and round off the back of the handle area, it will be a pleasant lightweight bow for my old age.
There are no identifying marks at all unfortunately, and it was obviously a cheap mass produced bow in its time, or a one-off. When the handle popped off originally, it raised a split which ran for a couple of inchs along the edge just under the inside upper edge of the handle block.
I will have a play with it. It is of no collector or historic value to my knowledge.
Dennis La Varenne
Another repair for a popped off handle block is to put in a couple of coarse thread wood screws from the back of the bowstave through into the handle block after cleaning up the glue line of old glue and re-gluing the block on. Counter-sink the heads of course.
It is important that the joint at c is feathered out quite a lot so that it will flex if any of the bend goes up into the handle block. The steeper the radius the more rigid will be the handle block and the more likely it is to want to pop off again because the bow proper will want to keep flexing through the joint and against the rigid handle block like a 'bend in the handle' bow. That is what will make is pop off in the first place.
If SilentBugler has laid out his bowstave as in diagrams 1 and 2, he should be OK so long as his glue is good. It wouldn't hurt to still use the wood screws as insurance though. Pre-drill first to prevent splitting.
Related to this topic, I have got an old (???) target bow which I think is Lemonwood, whose handle popped off at some time in its earlier life. The handle block looked like Queensland Hairy Oak as did the handle overlay, but both were badly split. I reglued another handle block on again and made the radius a lot longer and shallower so it feathered out well and it is now OK.
This bow is so old that it has thread wrapping in two places on each limb as a support against splitting or lifting of splinters from the back. The bow is a good 71 inches n-n and feels as though it would draw around 30 lbs.
The upper limb has 1 3/8 inches of string follow and is 36½ inches long and the lower limb has 2 ¼ inches of string follow and is 34½ inches long. It is 1 3/8 wide at the flares and ¾ inch at the nocks and square ended. There are no signs of fretting at all. The bowstave is pretty much absent of any growth rings although the wood fibres run the length of the stave. Tlhe arrisses along the limb edges were well rounded off. The nocks look as though they were cut in with a knife.
The way that it was originally made was the reason its handle and overlay popped off in the first place. The board was only 7/16" at its thickest through the handle and the handle block was only glued on without much of a radius which feathered down to the limbs (a la diagrams 3 and 4 above).
It looks as though its former owner heeled the bow very severely without the appropriate tillering to allow for this kind of grip. If I turn it upside down and cut the longer limb to a similar length, whip the ends and round off the back of the handle area, it will be a pleasant lightweight bow for my old age.
There are no identifying marks at all unfortunately, and it was obviously a cheap mass produced bow in its time, or a one-off. When the handle popped off originally, it raised a split which ran for a couple of inchs along the edge just under the inside upper edge of the handle block.
I will have a play with it. It is of no collector or historic value to my knowledge.
Dennis La Varenne
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
-
TheSilentBugler
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:27 am
- Location: Mornington Vic
