ABA TRAD Rules

[Glenn]

Saxton Pope and Art Young did shoot animals at extreme ranges but to do that they must have practiced at extreme ranges, it is a very good good book to read and everyone shold read it. It was a different time and different ethics, plenty of modern day hunters with the best of gear money can buy still turn animals into pin cushions, cant hit anything in the right place and can't sharpen a broadhead to save themselves.
Parcticing at extreme ranges is what everybody should do and shooting game at realistic ranges will be a lot easier, and that's where archery ranges and competitions come in handy, shooting at extreme ranges show up your faults and you should go and do somethng about it and not modify the ranges to compensate for these faults. These shoots are not fairdinkum practice for hunting and never will be because you could argue about the kill zones on a lot of targets anyway...Glenn...

[Brett Finger]

Brett,

On re-reading your first post you give the impression that you believe that the only traditional bow is a longbow.

[i
Daryl.

yah i suppose it was a "bit" of a generalsation (sp?)... hehehehe

basicaly i was talking about all TRAD bows

i mean. hell, there all bits of wood with string hanging off them ( as i keep stating )

as long as ther good enough numbers in each division, shoot them as such, but i dunno why we couldnt all just shoot form the same spot at the nasty pice of paper.

i must also mention, i spend the majority of my time out the bush hunting and not shooting at said pices of paper on a range.

Kind Regards, Brett

[GrahameA]

Morning All

My view:

I do not shoot either ABA or 3D on anything like frequent basis - 2 Traditional shoots per year.

However, I am more than happy with the way those two are organised, etc. The simplified Greybeard/Perry classes work okay for me and I have no difficulty finding a division to shoot in. (Not to forget Crocodiles climbing trees.)

I do shoot Target Archery. Whilst I am of the opinion that there may be a need for a Trad division within AA I can find plenty of rounds that will test my ability to the extreme.

I do shoot in a regular Trad Shoot at my local club - it has one division. Everyone shoots together irespective of age or sex, you can shoot any type of bow as long as it does not have cams (ie modern compound), no sights or stabilisers, wood arrows with feathers. I think I can speak for the group and say we have a ball. Yes, that does mean you can use any type of arrow rest and plungers. Makes it easy for the FITA recurve shooters - just take the sigtht and stabilsers off the bow. Why the wood arrow feather spec - well, because they look good.

I have shot FITA field - it is fine. The catch is that if you are shooting slow arrows you may find that overhanging trees do not allow for the arc of flight - fine for those shooting fast arrows not so good for those shooting slow arrows. But, you do not have to take the shot. I do not like field course where the area behind the target resembles a miniature version of the Amazon rainforest mixed with the North Australian Savannah - put an arrow in their and you will probably never seen it again. So I tend to think twice about shooting at long distances with said scrub behind it. I am happy to take the zero score, my choice.

I should also say I do not like wandering around the scrub in hot, humid conditions being attacked by half the insect population of the world. The insects I can keep at bay with some repellant - but am still waiting for the total environment air conditioning system. Which is why I like FITA - it is the manicured lawn at my club and the shaded shooting line that really appeals to me. Plus I have my choice of rounds to shoot.

I also shoot with the local SCA at their IKAC's - combines the best of FITA and Trad in many ways. 40 yrds max, speed shoots and shots in your own time. Smallish target, that gets closer and you get to shoot a fair few arrows, and it has simple rules.

WRT Clubs and Bows - My experience is that the people at Archery Clubs are no different to people at other clubs. They cover the whole spectrum of humanity. However, I have never been to Club where I have not been warmly welcome - obviously have not been to enough clubs.

[Brett Finger]

grahame,
yah mate thats wher i was going wiht all this..... exactually that > you can shoot any type of bow as long as it does not have cams (ie modern compound), no sights or stabilisers, wood arrows with feathers.....

would make for a fantastic days playing for sure
Kind Regards, Brett

[Glenn]

Brett there is a train of thought around that does not consider a recurve to be a traditional bow as when the string wraps around the recurve shortening the string that it is no different to a compound, I had one bloke years ago at the Longbow Muster at Tiaro back in the mid 90's tried to set me right on that point, people like that are nothing but a pain in the **** to everybody.
Like I said before I find the shoots very boring even though I will go to as many as I can but I will very rarely ever shoot a round. The best shoot I have ever been to was one where we picked our own shooting distance and spot, each person in the group took a turn at nominating the spot, I think this was the best shoot I have ever been to. Most of the shoots aren't fun anymore and they are only about target archery when it is all boiled down. If it is all about hunting then when was the last time a trophy was given to the best hunters who turn up at these shoots, even the hunting displays have dropped off at a lot of these shoots...Glenn...

[greybeard]

Hi Brett,

I wasn’t suggesting different divisions within ‘Traditional’ put them all in together.

Shooting my wooden stick against fibreglass bows does not worry me at all. I realise that at some of the longer distances the bow may lack some cast but it is my choice as to which bow I shoot.

Perhaps if I did a lot more meaningful practice it would lift my game.

Daryl.

[woody]

The difference between shooting barebow compound and barebow longbow or recurve is that ones a skillful past time and the others a sport that demands skill and physical training.

One type of bow is not more accurate than the other, the strength and condition of the archer is the deciding factor.

If you dont have the time or motivation to train for trad, shoot a compound, but dont whinge about the distance you shoot from.

There is no way I will ever shoot from the kids peg, its a matter of self respect

[Gringa Bows]

yeah these days a.b.a distances dont really bother me, i practice these distances most days with my longbows,and my average is around the 300 so i'm happy enough but i would'nt shoot at an animal over 20m

[longbowinfected]

Nev,

the best way to learn to shoot long distances is yes, go do it. Unfortunately most target butts are not timber arrow friendly and people stop because of cost due to breakage. Our club butts have steel doors, steel tops and bottoms along with hardwood sleepers....deadly to trad arrows.
I got big cardboard boxes that one of our members made up filled with plastic bags and cardboard layers and then shrinkwrapped together with an 80 cm field face. Nothing to kill arrows. The centre of a target is basically in essence in the same place at every distance no matter the size of the target butt and really is only a reference point to compare against your groupings' centre.
Keep going back until you find your natural arrow point dead on the small gold.
At that distance you will always be good if your form is good. You then just need to figure ouit your gaps for distances further away and closer. The most critical thing is your follow up form. Keep concentrating on your aiming point, [not the gold or the arrow flight] until you hear the arrow hit. Longer distances require much more consistent form in my experience.

Kevin

[woody]

Nev,

the best way to learn to shoot long distances is yes, go do it. Unfortunately most target butts are not timber arrow friendly and people stop because of cost due to breakage. Our club butts have steel doors, steel tops and bottoms along with hardwood sleepers....deadly to trad arrows.
I got big cardboard boxes that one of our members made up filled with plastic bags and cardboard layers and then shrinkwrapped together with an 80 cm field face. Nothing to kill arrows. The centre of a target is basically in essence in the same place at every distance no matter the size of the target butt and really is only a reference point to compare against your groupings' centre.
Keep going back until you find your natural arrow point dead on the small gold.
At that distance you will always be good if your form is good. You then just need to figure ouit your gaps for distances further away and closer. The most critical thing is your follow up form. Keep concentrating on your aiming point, [not the gold or the arrow flight] until you hear the arrow hit. Longer distances require much more consistent form in my experience.

Kevin

Kevin,
Another reason to shoot alloys, I find my time better spent practicing than crafting

[Gringa Bows]

i only use timber,i've been useing the same three s.spruse arras almost every day for the last three weeks and they're still going strong

[kerrille]

yes guys i guess i'm lucky. if you see the post liams bow you can see the butt in the back yard i can shoot out to 100mtrs if i shoot near the front fence and 150 if i go across the road . ive been shooting bows for well over 40 years and until this year never shot over 30 mtrs [well trying to shoot at a target anyway ] and was quiet amazed when i tried it its not that hard . i mean im nowere near the gold yet but i can normaly hit a 3'x3'bag at 50/60 mtrs and im happy with that .[woody, bring on ballarat ]

...nev...

[Brett Finger]

i only use timber,i've been useing the same three s.spruse arras almost every day for the last three weeks and they're still going strong

yah, yah...
its ok for you guys that can actually hit things, and not lose 6 arras a round... hehehehehehehehe

[Gringa Bows]

it's ok mate, the birds have gotta have something to stand on in the water

[rossy]

at my club (non ABA ). we have put in trad peg on our group 3,4 &5 targets. what we found from members was that the wheelie bow shooters thourght the distances were to close and the trad shooters said alot were to far . being a strong hunter based club. we gave it a go as a trail
since we implemented a trad peg, we found everyone was happier with the club range, the wheelie & trad bows shooters get to practice at distances that they take in the bush .

dickie

[Brumbies Country]

Not proposing to shoot game at long distances, but a good way to become better at short distances is to practice at long distances. Shooting targets at long distances is better at showing up poor form and poor bow/arrow tuning.

Couldn't agree more. I certainly wouldn't be shooting at game at long distances but agree very much with the sentiment above.

Work's been interfering with my reading of Ozbow which is never a good thing, but it seems alot of feeling has gone into this theme since it initially appeared on another thread. What we all seem to be about is shooting trad gear in the company of others with the same empathy for all that we enjoy with that gear. There's a bit of anti-ABA sentiment here. I have to say I'm lucky enough to have found in ABA in Southern NSW trad shooters of a like mind, who encourage and are prepared to discuss freely all things to do with trad shooting, and I feel trad shooting is on the increase here. The squad of four I shot with last weekend contributed to what amounted to healthy competition and plenty of fun. Yes, traditionally ABA administrators could have done more talking to members at a grass roots level.

On the other side of the coin I also belong to Archery Australia for field and clout shooting. Locally Trad's definitely growing and there is a similar amount of camaraderie to be had and trad shooters there also seek out each other.

I guess my personal attitude is firstly I enjoy the company of other trad archers, secondly I really enjoy the challenge. I don't expect courses to be tailor made for trad shooters. Perhaps the course I've enjoyed most this year was Eurobodella ABA. Very challenging, broke 6 wood arrows over 4 rounds in two days but really enjoyed the questions asked by clever target placement.
I would suggest that most of us are limited by geography, more so given the current price of petrol. Therefore I think we have to make the most of our relatively local opportunities be that hunting or be that the nearest available club. Guess what I'm saying is my theory is that you have to go out and make your own luck!

[longbowinfected]

Totally agree with you Grahame.

Most folk at archery have travelled a fair way, given up time, spent money, done a heap of preparation work to ave fun with others irrespective of bow types, politics etc. There are always going to be inequities or things that need fixing....
that is life.....more dialogue in front of a fire after a fun day shared with your favourite tipple irrespective of its chemical properties could very well be the best thing.

Good on you Simon.
Good to hear from you.

Aren't we all lucky that:
- we can legally shoot
- there are a lot of choices club/no club/associations
- there are a heap of like minded folk
- even if some of them shoot bows we do not....they are still archers

I think the trick is to spend time next to those who do not understand and let em watch or have a go....once they do they understand/accept more. People see that trad shooters in big or small groups always have FUN.....give them all some time...they will come around.....you catch more flies with a sweet bait.

Kevin

[longbowinfected]

Woody,

they are all great.
I prefer timber because they give me more feel for the shot......alloys do perform just that tad better and are certainly more robust in some ways but for the last three to four months my experience has been a minimal difference.

The point is we can shoot what we want, when we want where we want with whoever we want......that is all pretty special. I had the worst practice ever today before an important shoot on Sunday but things could always be worse.

Kevin

[Coach]

I see people complaining about the silly distances that ABA use , well , if you dont want a medal or want to get a rating , just go to the shoot and shoot from your comfortable range and have fun
I agree that the distances are silly , thats why when I was a member , I shot at my distance , not theirs , and forfeited my rankings . Maybe if more did that , they would take notice .
In the end ABA is a Target club not so much a hunting club , otherwise they wouldn't have Freestyle Unlimited , lets face it , who hunts with a scope , light arrows etc , and shoots Deer that looks like a cartoon Camel
Since the passing of a high ranking individual , I have seen a few things changed . Perhaps it will just take time , and more people step up and make noise where it is counted , IE , at meetings , not around the campfire after the shoot or on forums

[perry]

Some questions come to mind while reading this !

How come back in the late 70's and early 80's we did not whinge about shooting a 60 yard FITA game or 48 metre group 5 targets and in the 80's flocked to shoot IFAA and now folks whinge about shooting 30 yards . Is this short range thing a trend in Trad archery or a result of people wanting reward without the effort of another era ?

Is it a by product of the increase in expectation of accuracy brought about by the explosive growth in archery since the introduction of the compound device ? NOTE - I think the compound has been the most important thing to happen in archery in the last 60 years and has become a victim of it's own success with folks turning back to trad bows for there perceived simplicity .

At present Traditional archers that want to shoot long ranges have FITA , IFAA and ABA games and shorter range liking folks have 3D AAA and FITA Indoor that spring to mind . All disiplines have there issue's as it's not possible to keep everyone happy with every rule and definition ?

Just how do these governing bodies rules/ definitions keep pace with the developments in archery equipment and archers changing attitudes and still remain true to their origins without making increasingly complex changes ?

Why cant we just enjoy the variety of archery games the governing bodies have on offer instead of searching for a universal one size fits all game that in the end will only fit a niche group of archers ?

Now I will duck for cover - forgive me .

Regards Perry

[Brett Finger]

do you do a bit of shooting at round paper circles then perry?

[woody]

Its my thinking, that people's attitudes have been spoiled, by the compound's its easy to shoot a bigger score with out doing the work to become a better archer mentality.

And a lot of post compound new "trad" shooters dont know how good they could be, if they worked at it..........

Also, there is too much emphasis on equipment, and not enough on the archer.

I dont have a lot of time for the "I shoot a longbow with wooden arrows, so my score will be crap if I have to shoot past 30 metres".

If you think your score will be bad, ........it will be

[perry]

Brett I have been shooting at round paper circles [FITA] off and on for over 32 years and ABA for over 30 . FITA is a great place to head when my form goes off as the 6 arrow ends and extended ranges tell the truth about how good or crook an archer I am and there coachs are first rate - superior to other organisations accredited coaches in my veiw . I have not played FITA Field for a very long time but its along similar lines to IFAA . ABA is a challenge as I am weak at the 40 plus metre stuff . I like IFAA as a game for the same reasons as FITA

My favourite archery game is IBO based 3D as shot by 3DAAA then I love the variety of skills needed in the Traditional shoots about the place . The ranges with the 3DAAA game are 5 yards longer than the IBO game but what makes 3d so challenging and enjoyable for me is the tricks the target can play on your mind with cunning placement by the range captains - you can have a very diffficult sub 20 yard shoot or a diabolical 30 yard shot .

My point in this thread is that YES , ABA need to revamp there Traditional bow definitions to incorporate the development and gathering world wide use of takedown flat bows and deflex reflex flat bows - Tim Stone is in the process of doing this but I believe that adding new rules with a Traditional peg at shorter range is not about anything more than jumping on a bandwagon they missed years ago . I also believe that its not possible for a governing body to cater for every archer in a single disipline .

This thread is discussing a whinge that has been going on for decades and has cost ABA dearly with participation . I am definatly not an ABA man by the way . At least ABA are finally recognising the need to change with the times . I do wonder though if the pendulum will swing back the other way and Trad archers will want a return to the past and introduce a long range Trad peg .

I think it would be better to address the grading system before introducing a shorter range peg

Long shots have a long history in archery games and are designed to help an archer acheive consistency and tighten up there form . Play ABA as it is , accept the challenges and become a better archer , perhaps even a better bowhunter as a result of being better able to hit the vitals of a beast more reliably .

regards Perry

[Brett Finger]

perry,
thats a whole lot of shooting there fella

i have absoutly no idea what alll them, iffa - fita - 3daaa and all them things mean, obviously i know ther some form of archery stuff.

me old mum used to say... "practice makes perfect" and of corse she's right,

LB- Rod is shooting 300 plus almost everytime hes picked up the bow recently and thats just hours of shooting the bow, hopefully things will quieten down next week and i can go and play on the range.

cause God knows... i need to practice..... hehehe

Kind Regards, Brett

[longbowinfected]

I do not know many longbow or barebow archers, sorry none, who bitch about 60 metres at target on a 122 face or 40 metres on an 80 face.....when you do the maths they are relatively the same.
Many would like to do further.
I never enjoy 15 metres bugs eyes but I am practising to get at least better. I do not know anyone who does but it is a good challenge and everyone competing has to deal with it.
I approach every target/field/clout/trad event shot with a self set performance demand of 70% of perfect or better.
I have the same approach whether I shoot timber or aluminium arrows. There are a couple of us in masters in NSW AA that are using timbers against the others who are using metals.

Now irrespective of my score and even if I shoot a few duds I enjoy every arrow. I also enjoy the company of the rough hardheads muttering cruel but unfortunately all true jibes and delicate barbs...me mates. There is nothing wrong with being as competitive as all get out. Luckily at trad shoots and with the bare bowers I have shot with at AA, HVTA and at the Wiseman's Ferry Gettogether it is but it is also friendly and fun.

Perry you are quite right about shooting different distances. You need to shoot every possible event type and distance to really develop all your skills .....but as Woody says even more importantly you need to practice at every possible opportunity to get the best out of your investment.
I really do not see whingeing on the field of play....perhaps it is really more observable as part of written discussion.
If folk were totally unhappy I reckon they would really vote with their feet.

Kevin

[little arrows]

Having just ploughed through this thread, I started to realize something – we usually only shoot at the Trad Tournaments at which you get 1 shot, at give or take 30 metres. What do you learn from having just this one shot, maybe missing and then walking away? Nothing!
Perhaps changing the format slightly, along the lines of Perry and Glenn and introducing the bugs eyes and having multiple shots from longer distances would improve our shooting ability, which could then be taken to 3D Trad shoots or bowhunting, because taking more shots would have to improve your ability. Even mixing them up in a trad shoot, just for the heck of it.
I think the one shot only came into effect to preserve the life of the 3D targets. As many of you have also stated previously, the ABA paper targets have incorrect kill/score zones which can be off putting....
As far as the change of rulings go, there is nothing fairer at this stage than the Rules that Perry and Daryl have put together. The Trad interest is growing, yes, but we still do not have the appropriate numbers at any 1 tournament at this stage, to implement more “divisions”. Perhaps this will come in time. The use of timbers only at the Trad Tournament is “to keep the spirit alive”.
So I guess there will be a bit of discussion at the Caboolture Trad shoot coming up.
sue

[perry]

In general banter with no real intent with my mates up this way I have suggested incorporating a paper round into the trad shoot format as folks really want to shoot a steady stream of arrows at these shoots but this has not received great interest from the few I have chatted with .

The Grange bowmen has been holding a series of 7 Stick and String shoots this year , I have attended 4 of them and had a good time . The best Stick and String shoot this year involved using the IFAA animal targets and a shortened up ABA game - from memory I think series 4 distances pulled them up .

These IFAA Animal targets are a painted animal with excellant detail and a scrubby background . They are commercially available from Action Graphics . The overall effect is nearly that of a 3D target . The animal was so well painted that it seemed to pop from the background . They have a kill score zone ? and a secondry score zone that basically covered the entire torso of the beast .

With revamped equipment rules that reflected the attitudes of traditional archers in 2008 and a change of targets to the IFAA paper round I have suggested above ABA would get more participants attending the branch shoots .

I am a fan of recognising the modern developments in traditional archery equipment such as the rise of the deflex reflex bow and all styles of takedown longbows [ hate that description for modern laminated bows , flatbows - longbows are made of wood ]

I do appreciate the line which has been drawn in the sand with the wood arrows only in traditional archery rule most folks favour . But this is a hypocrital stance as the trad police seem very happy to accept fibreglass / carbon laminations in their bows .

No one has ever given me a convincing or unbiased reason why Alluminium arrows should not be considered as traditional for the same reason as fibreglass laminations are - they where introducted by Easton and where in use in the late 1920's shot out of selfbows I add- more than 25 years before fibreglass was used in mass produced bows .

I favour the introduction of a Trad Tech division to cater for the archers out there that love the trad bows but wish to shoot their artificial material arrows . ABA allow this now in the recurve division and recurves are just as trad as a longbow or flatbow .

No doubt if ABA do come up with some updated enlighted rules for traditional bows the arrow argument will have been waged long and hard .

I do prefer to make and shoot TIMBER ARROWS by the way . I actually bought a dozen carbon arrows a couple of months ago and have not been able to bring myself to make them up yet .

regards Perry

[gundy]

Some good points Perry.

I like to class the D/R type bows (yes, even 3 pc takedowns) as 'Stick Bows'...I believe that they have a seperate following to an extent. Then ofcourse you have a true longbow and recurve, flatbow, horsebow etc and so on.

I will look into the colored targets, maybe this is a 'meet half way' mark in conjunction with 3D targets?????

As far as alloy arrows etc go, this will be a hard one. ABA will no doubt make seperate classes, but the main thing is to link them all together to form one descriptive: Traditional Archery!

[longbowinfected]

not strictly about ABA but it is related....at the Macarthur field shoot last Sunday there were 10 longbowers out of 92 competitors in total....10.86956 per cent....and we had fun on a hard day at the office [hot and windy].

Kevin

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry

Aluminium arrows and Trad.

My feelings are along these lines. Trad is more about about shooting "Vintage Archery" - even if the reproduction equipment is made with modern materials.

Personally, I am of the opinion that give it another 20 years and you will have Wood risered compounds being accepted because they are getting on a bit. Within 10 years or so it will be Fibreglass and Aluminium arrows - they will be perceived to be "Old School".

People are now drooling over old cars that were brand new in my youth - it is just a matter of time.