Longbow Flight

[jape]

I know some of us, well me, have at times had the suggestion levelled at us by the 'get a life' brigade that actually going out and hunting or competing is what qualifies us to talk, but I make no apology for being fascinated by all this. I will continue to experiment and play because sitting by the wood-stove hand-painting arrows black with gold stripes and using legal blue parrot feathers is FUN. And sometimes we learn things to help ourselves or others. Some smelly bugger grunting by the fireside a few thousand years ago conceived the original bow after all. And it is to my mind far more worthwhile having conversations with and reading the posts of you folks than going down the pub and listening to the present generation of grunters discussing 'Big Brother' until they are 'tanked' enough to feel like going out spotlighting.
I just downloaded and am reading the 35 pages suggested above by Benbow at 7.00am in the morning on Saturday. Much enjoyment and food for thought and a bloody good excuse not to rug up and cut firewood in the six degree morning damp!
I am impressed with the level of thought, skill and application some of you bring to this sport, it makes it an art and that is always worthwhile.

[TomW]

Jape

know some of us, well me, have at times had the suggestion levelled at us by the 'get a life' brigade that actually going out and hunting or competing is what qualifies us to talk

In my experience, when people say "get a life" what they really mean is "why don't you be like me and do what I do and like, because I am not comfortable with people who don't conform to my ideas"

Do what ever it is that gives you pleasure. Sometimes hunting and competing will bring you nothing but heartache. That said, you can't know archery unless you "do" archery and you also can't know archery unless you study it. The two go hand in hand.

Flight shooting has always fascinated me but I have to confess some of the ideas being tossed about on the US Trad Gang site leave me a bit bemused. The authors should remember that they are dealing with projectiles that travel only at 136 mph (or thereabouts) if your bow will produce 200fps with the selected arrow and the speed goes up by 68 mph for every extra 100 fps increase in arrow speed.

Most compounds will not produce a "real" 300 fps with most arrows so a lot of the so-called aerodynamic theory is a bit shakey - at these speeds. There is really only one way to test a lot of the theories proposed and that is to do wind tunnel testing and although the Qld University can set this up for you, it will be at a price that will make you gag. I know because I asked them about 18 months ago. I'm still recovering from the shock.

So much for the spirit of research

[jape]

Yup, they certainly lost me with the aerodynamic ideas on Tradgang but overall they have shown, so far, that just about any bow and arrow set-up tuned with a decent foc, carbon or not, extreme or not, is improved in QUIETNESS with a smaller 'adcock' style fletch, or a much lower profile banana fletch, tested (with bh) until you get instability and then you go back one and stop. In all cases but one the 'wet' flight and speed is, subjectively at least, improved also. That should be very good for the hunters - and then you lot can test out for flight ... the Adcock guy is using extreme foc and small fletches with a turbulator and smashing the records apparently. Carbons of course but footed shafts in wood could do it.
And it is great to see these, and you, folks experimenting and helping one another, same as on here usually. I shall experiment myself with some even more carefully tuned bare-shaft woods and smaller fletches, just because I enjoy it. My biggest pleasure (archery type) every day is when after a few arrows at the hay bale and getting tired I just let one or two go straight up, then run and duck as the wind catches it and threatens to drop it in to my skull! I was very pleased to get broadheads flying true with my tuning setup, and very pleased to get 125 meters range with my 'lil 'ole bow. Can't wait to see how you go with the flight.

[avcase]

You are so lucky to have a flight competition that you can attend! I wish I could join in also but I'll have to wait for our national flight championship in the US this September. I wish you all very well. Those arrows at the top of the post look pretty slick.

Please let me know if you have any pictures, results, and stories from the event. I'm working on a web site dedicated to these kind of events and would like to include some write-ups or links to write-ups from these events as they take place around the world.

Len,
Will you be shooting flight at this event also?

Good luck!
-Alan Case

[Len]

Alan, wrong part of the country for me but like you I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing all about it.

[heavybows]

Nice flight arrows. Marlon

[heavybows]

These are my flight arrows. Marlon

[ACSMAKER]

Good luck guys. Hope all goes well. Len, are you going to come show us Yanks how to do it again this year? I see my name thrown around, I won't interfer but if anyone has specific questions I'll be glad to answer them. Like Alan I'm working and waiting for September. Marlon, those arrows are too pretty to shoot! ...O.L.

[heavybows]

Thank You OL my friend Marlon

[Len]

ACSMAKER, you must have me mixed up with someone else, I've never shot in a formal flight comp

[ACSMAKER]

Sorry, Len, there's another Len from down under that flights shoots obviously! ....O.L.

[heavybows]

OL I thought he was Len Verrals to since he from victoria Marlon

[jape]

Good to see some more friends from US! Welcome folks and especially Mr. A of flight fame if that is you. I have lost a few arrows over the last few days experimenting with the cut-down fletch styles attributed to you! They do go a fair bit farther and queiter than the usual and if I get the angle wrong (I shoot up for fun, not along) they sail into the forest surrounding me and bury themselves. I shall take the metal detector out and recover all the points after the next fire.

[GrahameA]

Morning All

See more photos here. http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=21798

Okay so we had the flight shoot. For those who are interested:-
Tom shot his 60lb compound and went 398m.
I shot my 30lb Samick and went 148 metres.

The learning experience.

• I now know even more how thin you can make POC shafts - Shattered arrow #1 on launch. All others shot fine. #1 had been test shot so it was obviously on the limit.
• The conditions on the day were cool and there was around a 10 knot headwind at ground level at the time of the shoot. Probably more higher up. That was Len V's estimate. (O.L. - Yes that Len. Amazing who you discover lives local, why didn't I know this earlier. You can laugh at him in the photos.)
• The arrow that went the furthest was the heaviest arrow and the one with the greatest FOC. That is a bit of a surprise. I will make some new arrows with increased mass. Had a bit of a chat with Len and he suggested that I try and get then FOC lower and get more mass into the arrow shaft itself. The light shafts were 10% lighter than Jazz arrows.
• A quick look at the photo will show that I am shooting at less that the optimum angle - that is something that needs to be fixed asap. I blame it on shooting clout a tad to often. If you look at Len's Bow you will note it has a level attached to it.
• Paint arrows bright pink - much easier to find.
• Use even smaller fletches and try to inset them into the shaft.

So all in all it was interesting and I learned a lot. And will probably come up with a few more questions over the next few days.

f02.jpg (77.16 KiB) Viewed 3962 times

That is Len V measuring his bow. He had to get the bow measured a second time as it went overweight the first time. The downside of this is that the bow will not be being fully drawn and not working to its full extent and thus he will shoot somewhat short.

f03.jpg (103.62 KiB) Viewed 3955 times

The range with the white markers at 100m intervals.

f04.jpg (58.45 KiB) Viewed 3970 times

First arrow down the range - it went barely forward but it did go a few metres sideways.!!

f05.jpg (67.84 KiB) Viewed 3948 times

Lovely flight.

f08.jpg (45.85 KiB) Viewed 3945 times

Tom shooting his modern bow with some very expensive arrows. Fell short of his target by 2m. If the wind had not been up he probably would have shot beyond 400m.

f11.jpg (57.51 KiB) Viewed 3943 times

Arrows. Some of which have been marked.

f12.jpg (133.83 KiB) Viewed 3941 times

Len V assisting in the hunt for some missing arrows.

f15.jpg (91.35 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

Measuring the arrow. The giant square is used to get a true line at right angles to the centre of the range.

f20.jpg (94.25 KiB) Viewed 3941 times

If nothing else I managed to keep it down the centre - I cant shoot that straight ever!!

All in all a very enjoyable morning. Now to make some new arrows.

[heavybows]

Thats great shooting there Len verrals.Marlon

[buzz]

THE FRENCH ARE COMING!

[GrahameA]

At least they were coming out of the bow straight. (Two Dogs Photo)

[jape]

well done, great day by the sound of it, great photos too as always

[avcase]

That looked like a great time! Thanks for posting all the pictures. I'd be surprised if a large number of arrows were not lost in that grass. Too bad you ended up with a headwind. This is motivating since I spent much of the afternoon working on flight gear for this summer and fall.

Sorry, I mixed up my Len's as well. I see that Len Verrall was there after all.
-Alan

[TomW]

Great photos as always Grahame.

Bloody wind!!!

So much for theory. The arrows I made up for Grahame were apparently far too light (but the FOC was good). I think there is a great deal to be learnt in flight archery. That which seems to be intuitively right often turns out to be wrong.

For those into trying their hands at wood arrows it would seem that fairly heavy, very stiff, and very barrelled is the way to go, with your FOC way down near the 0% mark! Next year I'm going to try this division as well. A lot of room for experimentation here.

With my arrows, the two that went the furthest were my X10s and the heaviest one with the lowest FOC (2%) gave the greatest distance by 2 metres over the second heaviest. The lighter ACEs which had much bigger FOCs dropped shorter and shorter as the weight dropped off.

Shooting them in nil wind conditions may well have given different results.

The biggest issue for Grahame and me was the fact that we had no way of determining our elevation. The organisers wouldn't allow us to have an assistant to call out the elevation angles so it was a case of by guess or by God - neither of which seemed to work particularly well. Everyone else had spirit levels of some sort attached to their risers and this was a huge help.

I've worked out a design for a compact inclinometer which I will make up and which should work - Grahame will get one as well. We might be able to scare them a bit next year.

All in all great fun. Everyone should try it!:D

[longbow steve]

Thanks for the story guys, I havent had time to get involved but have appreciated reading and seeing the photos. Steve

[ACSMAKER]

Good stuff guys and yes, flight shooting if persued with vigor, you will learn a lot and you'll find some of the old thoughts and rules of thumb go in the trash where they belong. Juli and I hold 7 or 8 World and National records and my bows hold another dozen or so. Here's a couple of tips...

Arrows...Arrows.....Arrows.....I spend 99% of my time working with the arrows and tuning them to the bow. The only things that brings the arrow down is gravity and drag..Gravity is what it is so not much we can do about that...The drag however you can do a LOT with.

The general goals you are looking for is to get the highest spine you can with the least diameter that will tune well and is "stable"...In the wood arrow classes, I still have not found any better wood then good ol' POC. For a 50#ish bow, I try to find shafts that are 23/64 or 11/32 as high a spine as I can get, usually 100-120#. Then I start my barreling. Lets think about the "stability" part for a second....The more surface area behind the balance point the more stable the arrow will be. This can be done with shaft and fletching combined.

What I'm looking for is the FOC to be as far forward as possible with the fattest part of the shaft behind center, then use the smallest/thinnest fletchings I can find/make. I know this goes against some of the things you'll read on the subject but much of what you read is just flat incorrect. Not that lower FOC's or symetrical barreling won't "work", it just won't work as well. The FOC thing and being fat diameter in the back....You have to have a shaft anyway, you might as well use it for stability and you'll need less fletching so total drag is less. Plus for spine reasons, the back of the shaft gets 100% of the "G" forces therefore needs to be the stiffest.

I'll use 1/8" brass, steel, or even tungsten about 3/4" to 1" long glued into a 1/8" hole drilled in the shaft for a point. My fletching usually is 1/2" long by about 1/4" high, placed as far aft as I can. I use dove feathers mostly, many use pheasant tails. If you can't get arrows with fletching that small to fly, your tuning is WAY off.

As some of you figured out, light arrow won't fly far...It takes mass to carry energy. Most of the 50ish# bows/arrows that have flown the furthest for us are in the 225-275 gr range. Look at it this way...If you increase velocity 10% by lowering weight, your drag goes up 40% because velocity is squared in the formula.

The next step is go shoot them....I can make a dozen arrows as close to perfectly matched as possible and 3 will fly real far, 3 will fall 50-100 shorter and the rest in the middle. At these speeds little variations we can't measure become a big deal. I'll number my arrows, shoot them and keep track of how far each one flies. Watch them as you shoot..For a right handed shooter, if the arrow drifts left, they are too stiff and vice versa. Soon you begin to see trends and keep the better arrows aside, alter the bad ones with point weight, sanding the shafts, and or make more arrows based on the trends you see.... Go shoot them again...Usually when we walk up to the shooting line, I KNOW we'll set a record and I usually know which arrow will do it based on testing and accurate notes.

If you change your string or so much as change your brace height 1/8"....Erase the slate, you are starting over.

Carbon arrows are much the same except it's a little more difficult cause you can't see the arrows typically.

No detail is too small or insignificant. When someone says this or that won't make any difference, they are showing their ignorance of what does matter.

The angle....Piece of cake as us Yanks say...44 degrees is optimun in calm air. A couple degrees less if shooting into the wind and a couple more with the wind. Get a foot or so of clear plastic tubing, fill it half full with colored water and couple it togeter with a 1" brass or aluminum tube. Put a mark with a sharpie pen somewhere on it. Take an arrow and glue a cheap protractor in the middle with a thread and tiny plumbob. Stick the plastic loop in your armguard with 1/2 of it sticking out the top. Nock and draw the arrow and have someone tell you when you are at 44 degrees. Adjust your "angle gauge" in your arm guard so the water line is on that sharpie mark when you are at 44 degrees. Now as long as you don't bump or otherwise move your angle gauge, you can see when you're at 44 degrees while at full draw. Something similar could be mounted to your bow if the rules allow.

Anyway, just tricks and tips. Hope it helps.....O.L.

[GrahameA]

Morning All

I will post some photos of the arrows later today.

What I'm looking for is the FOC to be as far forward as possible with the fattest part of the shaft behind center, then use the smallest/thinnest fletchings I can find/make.

Hmmm...

The arrow that went the furthest was the heaviest? It also had the highest FOC and it was more of a needle taper which the fat part of the barrell midway down the shaft. It was also the shaft that I repaired after cutting it down.

The low FOC shafts that Tom made flew well but fell a little shorter. Could have been the wind on the day.

So fo the moment I intend to stay with the bow as it is so I have a constant benchmark and make some new arrows. I have some Vic Ash shafts that I will start turning into arrowslater this week.

[avcase]

Are there some official results posted somewhere from this flight shoot?
Thanks,
-Alan

[GrahameA]

Will see what I can do.

[ichiban]

wow there are so many levels to arrow and bow building, you can make one that works easily and then make ones that are just fabulous and i still believe your a wonderful magician

[TomW]

Hi All

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but I thought I'd post it up anyway in case anyone is curious about one way of getting an accurate elevation for flight comps. I made this myself and it is a tad crude but it functions well. It has been calibrated and is quite accurate. It gives angular readings in 2.5 degree increments and if you are very careful you can probably cut that in half.

[longbow steve]

quite impressive Tom, did you come up with the idea yourself or is a clinometer used regularly in compound flight shooting?
Did the weight of it affect the bows balance in any way? Thanks for the photo's Steve

[TomW]

Hi Steve

My own idea. I don't know if anyone uses clinometers in this game but they do use spirit levels of various types which I looked at and wasn't greatly impressed with. I wanted something that would give me an accurate elevation in degrees so that I could alter launch angles by small increments. As far as I could see, this can't be done with spirit levels hence this contraption. It's a bit crude but I don't know if I want to go to the trouble of making it somewhat more sophisticated.

Best regards

Tom

[TomW]

Oh and it doesn't adversely affect the bows balance or feel. It isn't all that heavy really - less than 1lb I think, although I haven't weighed it

Tom