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Where to source materials etc. Also the place to show off your new bow or quiver etc.... Making things belongs in Traditional Crafts.

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dawallace45
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Getting started

#1 Post by dawallace45 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 pm

Gentlemen , I'm in great need of advice , while I've been a archer for 30 years or so and have made several self bows I'm only now getting the gear together to make my first laminated bow , I want to make a longbow first off and to that end have John Clarks Booklet and also the plans and DVD's from Bingham's projects ,
I have ply to make the forms and hot box [ if necessary ] , I have a fair few tools , Bandsaw , Thickness Plainer , pedestal drill , Linishers and such so I figure I should be able to make my own laminations eventually , at the moment I'm unsure as to what sort of Longbow to build , while I've owned several longbows in the past [ but not in the last 10 years ] I've not ever shot a deflex / reflex style of longbow ,
I keep hearing conflicting information about them , so far I've been told they are much faster than a normal straight longbow , but others tell me the increase in speed is only marginal at best , I've also been told they tend to have more handshock than a straight bow but I've also been told they are smoother than a straight bow , who is right ? I'm 6'2 and have a 30" draw so am looking at a 68" bow of 55# ,

A mate in the USA has recommended to me to buy a limb kit from Bingham's for my first bow , his reasoning is that I'll have decent laminations to use as templates for my own attempts at making laminations and have a pretty good chance of getting my target weight right off , now this brings another problem some people tell me that the combination of parallel and tapered laminations makes a smoother and more forgiving bow and others tell me that tapered laminations only is the best way to go , what are the recommendations from the people here ?

I would`really like to try using Vertical bamboo flooring as it seems quite popular these days but also have some nice pieces of Spur Mahogany , Sally Wattle and some quinine , are any of these suitable for laminations or risers ?

Epoxy ? I'd really rather not have to build a hot box if I don't have to , I know Smooth -on is supposed to be better if a hotbox is used but how about Techniglue do I need a hotbox for it , also has anyone used Bote-cote epoxy ? I'm a hobby canoe builder and use it a lot , I asked the people I get it from and they reckon that several of their customers have stated they bought it to use for making bows but they have no knowledge of how they turned out , but they considered it should be quite suitable , I'd like to hear if any one on this forum has tried it and their results before I try it my self

Any way , thank you , I hope some one can steer me to the right track

David

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#2 Post by greybeard » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:16 pm

Hi David,
Over the past eighteen months or so I have produced numerous laminated bows, be it in my bow making workshops, bows for orders or my own bows. I have only used Techniglue CA and have not had a problem. I do not use a hot box and let the glue cure at room temperature. Other glues could be as good as or better but not having used them I cannot pass judgement.
As far as limb design and timbers for laminations go you will have to experiment. The main timber I use is spotted gum but also use hard rock maple and hickory as well as bamboo.
Once you have made your first bow you won’t want to stop experimenting.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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#3 Post by GrahameA » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:43 am

Morning David and Darryl

I f you check out the spec's for Techniglue you may find that almost any Summers day will be more than suitable on the temperature front.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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#4 Post by Graeme K » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:04 am

Most Epoxies made for boat building do not have high strength at elevated temperatures which is necessary as strung bows in the sun become a problem --- Techniglue CA is cheap and reliable ---- GKL

dawallace45
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#5 Post by dawallace45 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:53 pm

Gentlemen , yeah I know what it's like to get your teeth into some thing and not be able to let go , all my hobbies turn to obsessions , a while back I wanted a canoe , I ended up building 6 canoes or kayaks and several boats , always tend to be a compulsive experimenter in every thing I do but like to find out what others are doing as it often saves a lot of time and money , always figured it's better to learn from others mistakes rather than making my own

It would be good if a laminating oven isn't needed as I just don't need some thing that big taking up space in the shed at the moment or at least not until I finish the extensions

Temperatures affecting a strung bow in the sun isn't some thing I had thought about but not sure it would be a problem with Bote-cote epoxy , when I was living in Clermont in Central Qld I had several kayaks sitting in full sun all day all through summer , and a tortured ply style stitch and tape kayak with a hull coated in epoxy and graphite tends to get more than hot enough to fry a egg on , one particular kayak was held together with nothing but epoxy with the gunnels having been under a fair amount of strain when glued into place and suffered no ill effect , I did talk to the suppliers at one stage and they thought that as Bote-cote is a little more flexible than most marine epoxies it should be OK , I have no problem with buying Techniglue but was interested in finding out if any one had used Bote-cote as I still have several litres of it on hand , looks like I'll go with Techniglue for my first bow at least and maybe experiment with the Bote-cote later on .

Any one have any opinions on whether to go with a straight longbow or Deflex / reflex , having never shot the latter I really have nothing to go on ,

Any opinions on which is better a combination of parallel and tapered lams or all tapered ?

Thank you .

David

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#6 Post by GrahameA » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:27 am

Good Morning David

Bruce is a pretty good Chemical Engineer and I would suggest that he knows what he is talking about. I have not used any Bote-Cote for a decade or so - haven't been playing with boats for a decade or so.

If he says it is okay the it probably is but you need to keep in mind that is a unproven glue in this area.

Actually, it would be rather nice to know that it worked successfully in this application as it would be good to have another choice.

Laminated spars and masts seem to hold together okay but there is not much flex there. In the case of things like DK's (tortued ply) the epoxy is not flexing. As you know, whilst the ply is bent there is no continual flexing of the Epoxy.

If you do decide to go with the Bote-Cote let us know of the result - I am interested.

p.s. Read the post on canoes. As a result iam thinking of build either a Mouseboat for the pure pleasure of it. But then again I would love a 'Whisp' or perhaps a 'Wee Lassie'. http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5802
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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#7 Post by dawallace45 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:19 am

Grahame ,
You should check out the designs from Matt at http://www.jemwatercraft.com/ , Matt has some great proven designs , a friend of mine down Torbanlea way has built several of them and they are great , not only look great but easy to paddle ,

About 4 years back one of my self bows raised a splinter , a fair size one and I figured that the next time the bow was fired it would probably fail so I cut the splinter out filled the hole with thickened epoxy and then backed it with a strip of woven fibreglass tape and several coats of epoxy [ Bote-cote ] , that bow is still going strong , I gave it to my brother two years later and he shoots it quite a lot but tends to abuse it a bit , it wasn't until about a year ago I realised that he had been leaving it strung , so the bow survived being left strung for over a year , strangely enough it doesn't have any more set than it did to start with , he also forgot and left it on top of the chook shed for a little over a month during summer , I was shooting it about two weeks ago and it's still fine so I think Bote-cote may well bare more experimenting with , I did also build a self bow out of iron bark about a month before I built my brothers bow and it come in a little under weight so I backed it with a 3 mm veneer of spotted gum , I used bote-cote on that too , of course then it was way heavy but I was disinclined to try and lighten it , I lent that bow to a mate to try out but he didn't give it back , I've long since moved from there and have no idea if the bow is still in one piece but it was fine two years ago , I'm not at all sure that I'd like to take the risk on my first bow with it since I'll probably be buying commercially made laminations for it but later when I'm making my own laminations I'll definitely be experimenting with it

Yeah Bruce is good value , good advice and good prices , when I built the front doors for my house I glued all the frame and panels together with bote-cote [ amazing the uses you find for it when you always have a few litres on hand ] and I also bought marine ply from him for my kitchen cupboards , it was cheaper to buy marine ply from him than to buy veneer grade ply locally and the marine ply has a finish just as good as the veneer ply I was looking at

David

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#8 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:38 pm

Any one have any opinions on whether to go with a straight longbow or Deflex / reflex , having never shot the latter I really have nothing to go on ,
G’day David,

Which bow design is really a personal matter but I will give a couple of general comments on bow designs.

A straight laid bow will be the slowest and these bows will have a small amount of string follow after use.

The deflex/reflex designs vary a lot and, depending on the amount of reflex you use, will determine if the bow will have reflex (recurve) when strung. One advantage some people see in this design is that generally speaking you can have a shorter bow for a longer draw.

My preference is for a reflex design but it has to be designed correctly or you can end up with a lot of hand shock.
Any opinions on which is better a combination of parallel and tapered lams or all tapered ?
This isn’t a simple question as what type of lams you use will entirely depend on the bow design you choose.

Parallel, taper or reverse taper lams effect where your limbs will bend and you have to work this in with your chosen design. Just remember that as a general rule, the less limb mass you have the better.

As far as epoxy is concerned I will stay with Smooth-On. It has more than proven itself over the years and it isn’t all that expensive.

All the best with your laminated bow making venture and please keep us up to date with your progress.

Jeff

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#9 Post by dawallace45 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:46 pm

Jeff seeing as how I have the Bingham's Projects Blueprints I sort of figure on trying one of their Limb lamination kits first off [ but at this stage nothing is set in stone ] , thinking of going with the Brown Coreflex/ Superaction , I believe their kits come with one pair of tapered laminations and three pair of parallel laminations , I have the blue print for both the Straight longbow form and the deflex / reflex bow form so it wouldn't be any more bother making one over the other , I have shot longbows made from the Bingham kits but that was 20 years ago and my memory isn't good enough for me to remember how thick the limbs where in comparison to other makes of longbows from that period , I do remember that the time I was impressed with them but didn't much like the grip design much preferring the design of the Howard Hill bow I had at the time , would I be correct in thinking that the Deflex/reflex design better suits more tapered laminations ?
Thank you
David

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#10 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:11 pm

would I be correct in thinking that the Deflex/reflex design better suits more tapered laminations ?
I have not made one of these but the amount of taper would depend on how much deflex and reflex you have. I have heard of a reverse taper being used to stiffen the limb tips with this design.

For tapers I would be guided by Binghams since you are using their blueprints.

I too much prefer a smaller straighter grip on my bows compared to the more locator type.

Jeff

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#11 Post by Graeme K » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:26 pm

Hi David
The way the tapered / parallel lamination thing works is that it is only a relevant consideration if you are using purchased tapered laminations as this means you are restricted to the couple of standard rates of taper that are normally available. The reality is that what a core is made up of makes no difference in terms of parallel or tapered lams, the only consideration is the total taper of the limb and if you can make your own tapered lams then it is possible to put all the taper you require in one lam and then make up the total thickness with a parallel lam and this will work the same as a number of tapered lams that give you the same overall dimensions. All the stories of a different result from tapered or parallel lams is urban myth, there are differences but they are created by increased bending resistance that is function of the the added sheer in the glue lines or the fact that a particular combination of tapered and parallel lams makes a limb bend in a arc which changes the draw characteristics due to changed overall taper. . The most efficient limb design has a core capable of resisting the crushing forces imposed on it while having no resistance to bending at all and also being as light as possible. Them all the loads are taken by the glass skin where they are handled most efficiently and little energy is lost to internal bending resistance. This is the reason modern high performance recurve limbs are have one piece foam cores.

Graeme

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#12 Post by dawallace45 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:40 am

Gentlemen
It looks like I have a long road of learning and experimentation in front of me , as I said before I have John Clarks booklet and the Bingham's plans and DVD's , can any one recommend any other books or DVD's on making laminated bows , I generally find it easier and cheaper to learn from others mistakes if I can

On another note I see in the catalogues they offer clear glass lams with and with out Scrim , what does this mean and in real terms what difference does this make ?

Thank You

David

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#13 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:35 pm

Clear glass is availavle with or without the scrim. The scrim is a very thin mesh in the middle of the lam. It helps prevent the glass splitting lengthwise.

The glass always had scrim but in the 1990's Gordon's started having problems with the clear glass having cloudy blemishes in it. They made some of their clear glass without the scrim to try and get clear glass without blemishes. It still has some blemishes I believe (or it did in the late 1990's) but it isn't as bad as the clear glass with scrim.

The glass without scrim is ok for a longbow (I have used it) but it caused problems with recurve makers (wider thinner limbs) with limbs getting small lengthwise splits in them. My preference is for glass with scrim.

Unfortunately all clear glass now days has some blemishes in it. Gordon's say it is in the fibres they are supplied with and use to make their glass that causes this.

To me the clear glass is softer than their coloured glass. You have to be careful that you do not clamp the limbs of your bow too tighly in a vice or with clamps when you are working on it as you can cause the glass to crack. These cracks usually cause no problems to the longivity of a bow but don't look so good cosmetic wise. :D

Jeff

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#14 Post by dawallace45 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:19 am

Jeff

It looks like I won't be worrying about clear glass then , I'd much rather go for reliability than looks , seems like the glass with scrim is getting harder to find and if a bow I made developed cracks it would annoy me no end so better to not use it , I do plan on making a takedown recurve just as soon as I've made a few longbows , I think my bows will be spending a fair bit of time sitting strung in full sun in my canoe and those are harsh enough conditions at any time

Also I've been meaning to ask is there a archery club down Maryborough way ? I have a canoe building mate down at Torbanlea who is interested in learning to shoot and then get into making his own bows , he works at the prison and is a compulsive canoe builder like me and possibly even worse



David

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#15 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:19 pm

David,

See the following. The club is just on the Hervey Bay side of the Susan River. It was originally called Wide Bay Bowhunters but like so many other clubs they changed the name to get rid of that awful word Bowhunter. :? :x Rant over.

Jeff

Wide Bay Archers Inc

CONTACT: Gary Pavey

ADDRESS: 1463 - 1501 Maryborough Hervey Bay Road, Susan River, HERVEY BAY QLD 4655

POSTAL ADDRESS: P O Box 3082, HERVEY BAY QLD 4655

TELEPHONE: 4121 2648

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#16 Post by dawallace45 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:36 am

Jeff

Thanks , I'll pass that on to my mate

I hate political correctness , these days when some one tells me I'm not politically correct I tend to take that as a complement , the two main reasons I stoped shooting competition many years ago was because at a Interclub shoot at the Grange Bowhunters a guy from the ABA was telling every one that from then on no one would be allowed to shoot interclub competition unless they were a member of ABA , now I had planed to join up with the ABA that day , had the money in my pocket but I didn't like to be told I had to be a member , the same guy was saying that all the clubs should get rid of any reference to bowhunting in their name , that turned me right off and I never bothered to shoot competition again , actually it was only a month or so after that I fell head first off the top of a loaded semi-trailer , I put my left arm out to try and save my self and it probably did , but I tore up all the tendons and ligaments in the shoulder , elbow and wrist , as well as a green stick fracture in the arm , also damaged my neck , still having problems with them all these years later , but it was over a year before I was able to pull a bow again so I never even bothered going back to club shooting just preferring to do my own thing , sorry for the rant .

David

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#17 Post by GrahameA » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:04 am

Good Morning David
Go to a Trad' shoot. There are a few in Qld each year, Gladstone may be your closest or bop down to the Corrival at Caboolture, and there others in other states. In the case of Victoria they have a brilliant series going.

They are probably the complete antithesis of what you have experienced. Everyone is friendly and easy to get on with and the whole thing is a lot of fun and njoyment. You do not need membership of AA, ABA, 3DAAA as you can get temporary membership for the weekend. Camping is generally available as are meals - make sure register for the meals if required.

Plus you will get to meet a few of the Ozbow members. :?

They all get advertised on this site about a month ahead. Have a look at these posts:

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5740
http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4885
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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#18 Post by dawallace45 » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:40 am

Grahame

The Gladstone range is only half a hour up the road from me , I've talked to some of the members from time to time and they seem like good people , I wouldn't mind having a look at one of their Longbow and recurve musters , don't know if I'd bother shooting though , these days I find being around a large group of people aggravating , not because I'm anti-social [ well maybe a bit ] but because I'm a little bit deaf and the general noise from a group of people talking and such tends to turn into a unintelligible mass that gives me a splitting headache so I tend to avoid those situations , but I am interested in seeing other peoples equipment , that was always one of the main reasons I used to go to interclub shoots years ago , always like to see what other people were shooting , that and I used to make and sell a lot of quivers and such back then and the interclub shoots were my main market


My back three acres are all natural bush and I'm slowly clearing lanes to make my own field range [ will need to get some field targets sooner or later to make up templates ] , actually my place backs onto a old stock route as well and I noticed some fresh pig tracks down there the other day , spotted a fox last week and have seen a few dingoes in the last month or so , my brother comes down to shoot with me from time to time and so does a neighbour from a few doors up , I'm working on slowly converting the whole street to archery

David

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