The creative aspects of arrow making?

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Mick Smith · #1 Post by **Mick Smith** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:33 pm

I was just having another look at Abaci's thread 'Getting ready for ...', and it got me wondering about arrow making, or fletching in general and the views of Ozbow members.

From what I can gather, there's a few different schools of thought when it comes to arrows. There's the people who don't give two hoots about what their arrows look like, just so long as it performs to their expectations, they're happy. I think most people fall into this category. Then there's the people who won't shoot just any old arrow. They insist on certain standards of quality and asthetics. However they don't get too involved in an ongoing creative urge to build an arrow that's been in the back of their minds. These people tend to find a design they like and they just stick with it, making hundreds of clones, given enough time. And finally there's the people who constantly think about colour combinations, fletch shapes, wood stains, cresting and what point would be the best to build the 'ultimate' arrow. Of course, these people never actually build the ultimate arrow, the ultimate arrow is always on the 'drawing boards'.

From which 'school of thought' do you belong?

Personally, I think I fall about midway between the last two catagories.

Just curious.

Mick

Jeffro · #2 Post by **Jeffro** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:43 pm

I was thinking about half way between the last 2 categories as soon as i read your question Mick.
I have made a different color combination set of arrows every time ive made a new set.It has been with what feathers were available at the time i went to buy them.
I usually only buy enough to do the ammount of shafts i have bought plus a few spares.

#3 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:36 pm

I guess I'm the middle one.

Jeff

TomW · #4 Post by **TomW** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:44 pm

I'm definitely in the latter category - SIGH!

matt_d · #5 Post by **matt_d** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:24 pm

I think I have double standards when it comes to my arrows. I never want to invest too much time with my target arrows because it's likely they will get pulled from the target wrong or trampled on by somebody who is in your first category

Although I still do devote considerable time to staining, binding, and other small details.

My hunting arrows on the other hand I like to put huge amounts of effort into crafting - tapering, footing, self nocks etc.. Because of what they will be used for I feel obliged to do this as a mark of respect to the game I intend to take. Some of you may laugh at this but I take it very seriously.

I've never been a big fan of cresting, I find it far too geometric, stale and characterless. I love artwork as on Michelle's arrows because it is flowing and organic, and every piece slightly different.

Matt

Mick Smith · #6 Post by **Mick Smith** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:07 pm

Jeffro

Although I often buy different coloured fletches, etc, I'm nearly always disappointed with the results. I nearly always end up going back to basic white fletches, capping and nocks, although I am quite partial to very plain arrows fletched with 'traditional' barred feathers as well. So I suppose this makes me slot into category 2, more so than anywhere else.

Stickbow Hunter

It's funny you know. I actually had you in mind as the perfect example of a category 2 person when I typed my first post. You make beautiful arrows, that's for sure, but I can only ever remember seeing just the one or maybe two designs over the years, but hey, if they work for you, why change them?

Tom

I look forward to seeing the results of your attempts at building the 'ultimate' arrow. In just a short time you've come a very long way indeed with your fletching or arrow making endeavors. I'm expecting big things from you in the near future.

Matt

I can empathise with you. I feel much the same about my arrows too. I might take a little more pride in my everyday practice/target arrows perhaps, but I never spare any expenses or effort with my hunting arrows either.

It's strange, but I just can't bring myself to make an arrow without some cresting of some kind. I even crest the arrows that I make for the kids.

I like the look of some arrows that don't have cresting, particularly the ones that have a historic or rustic appeal to them. I do like cresting though, in my mind it's very traditional and very appealing as well. I also very much like hand painted designs on arrows, like the ones Abaci has just finished doing, but I don't think I could do something as artistic as that.

I think the bottom line for nearly all of us is, we enjoy making our arrows. Yes, sometimes it can be a bit of a chore, especially when we're working to a deadline, but for the most part, I think we find it very relaxing and satisfying regardless of whether we're designing something new and exciting or just building more of the 'old standards'.

Mick

GrahameA · #7 Post by **GrahameA** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:37 am

Mick

Ask Tom to post some photos of his Mongolian Arrows he was shooting yesterday.

Sparra · #8 Post by **Sparra** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:58 am

I'm in no 1...Get em together and get em flying...I don't really mind what they look like...

TomW · #9 Post by **TomW** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:58 am

Grahame

I've already posted a photo of the arrow on the "My First Attempt at Arrow Making".

Mick

Don't expect too much - I suspect I will be failing more often than succeeding. Still, as they say, it is often better to journey rather than to arrive.

********
Admin Edit
Link to Tom's Arrows
http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5679
*********

african man · #10 Post by **african man** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:16 am

Hi new to this site
got to start somewhere

I started in category 1 where I just wanted get them arrows flying but after about 20 arrows I started make them look better and have slowly moved up the categories
I found that once I had a full quiver of field arrows I could start to devote more time to making really Fancie arrows
I have all ways made reinforced self nocks as I find them very appealing
My arrows at the moment are reinforced self nocks spliced fletches and crested I also make my own broad heads
My brothers birthday is coming up so I am going to make him a hunting arrow , self nock, spliced fletchs cresting footed and tapered. He still has training wheels on his bow [compound] so it will be for display This will give me the opportunity to move up a few notches in my arrow making endeavors

Chris

#11 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:02 pm

G'day Chris,

Welcome to the site, it's good to have you here. Why don't you post a few photos of your arrows as we all like looking at photos.

Jeff

matt_d · #12 Post by **matt_d** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:13 pm

Chris welcome mate

I would love to see some of your broadheads sometime..

Matt

perry · #13 Post by **perry** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:26 pm

I,ve gone off making bows a bit and am getting keen on the search for the ultimate arrow . My arrows are constantly evolving as my understanding of exactly what the ultimate arrow for an intended purpose is . I reckon I'm close now to understanding the ultimate arrows quality's are and as I rediscover what primitive people knew for thousands of years I get further and further away from pretty arrows . I appreciate the skill in a set of perfectly crested arrows , footed arrows but that dont make em shoot , I cant be fussed with more than rudimentry cresting simply to make them easier to see in the target or find in the grass and spend all my time making arrows with matching spine , weight and getting my FOC spot on . I usually only foot shafts to repair them and have been known to foot the shaft in the same batch of timber there made from in an attempt to maintain the spine and weight of the set . Guess I'd put myself in the middle catagory . regards Perry

Coach · #14 Post by **Coach** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:33 pm

Category 1 , make 'em , and then go and shoot them as they were intended to be ,, hunting animals

MaylandL · #15 Post by **MaylandL** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:19 pm

Mick Smith wrote:...From what I can gather, there's a few different schools of thought when it comes to arrows. There's the people who don't give two hoots about what their arrows look like, just so long as it performs to their expectations, they're happy. I think most people fall into this category.

Then there's the people who won't shoot just any old arrow. They insist on certain standards of quality and asthetics. However they don't get too involved in an ongoing creative urge to build an arrow that's been in the back of their minds. These people tend to find a design they like and they just stick with it, making hundreds of clones, given enough time.

And finally there's the people who constantly think about colour combinations, fletch shapes, wood stains, cresting and what point would be the best to build the 'ultimate' arrow. Of course, these people never actually build the ultimate arrow, the ultimate arrow is always on the 'drawing boards'.
...

Definitely the last one for me but the "ultimate arrow" for the bow(s) that I am using. I am constantly experimenting with flight dynamics by working on spine, weight, arrow speed and FOC by experimenting with:

(a) barrel tapered, straight and/or footed shafts
(b) POC, Chundoo, silver quandong woods for shafts
(c) straight, offset or helical fletching
(d) fletch length/profile (4" or 5" and shield cut vs parabolics)
(e) arrow shaft length (preference for 29")
(f) point weights (70, 90, 100 or 125 grains)
(g) the general rule of thumb of 8-10 grains per pound of draw seems like a good one for determining an optimal arrow weight

In terms of what I've learnt to date:
(a) footings and point weights will influence spine and FOC and I prefer a FOC of about 10% for the kit that I shoot
(b) arrow spine for the horsebows that I shoot are typically 10# less than the poundage of the bow
(c) 5" fletches appear to have greater stability for targets at 20m and less but are affected by windy conditions for targets greater than 30m. I am experimenting more with 4" fletches for arrows for targets at longer ranges. I'm changing the fletch profiles to parabolics and reducing length to 4" for our bows than are less than 50# to reduce drag
(d) for the lower (sub 50#) bows that we have I am going to have straight fletching to reduce drag and improve arrow speed
(e) for the target/field shooting that we do, I don't see any advantages to having footed shafts if I get the FOC right for the bows that I shoot with using the point weight
(f) binding the fletches is a must if you shoot the arrows off the back of your hand. To date I havent had any bits of fletches come loose

Apart form all of this, I like to have a distinctive cresting and design on my arrows including whether I have self or plastic nocks and spliced fletches. For me its very therapeutic and relaxing.

So this definitely puts me into the third category ad I freely admit I don't really have a life

Well, at least Anysia says that when I retire I can be out of the way making arrows.

Happy shooting

Blinkybill · #16 Post by **Blinkybill** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:55 pm

I would be in the first category but still like making my arrows look good to a certain extent. I always bind the feathers because i think that looks good but i never crest them because i prefer the more primitive look on arrows but although i dont put heaps of time into making my arrows, i still get extremely attatched to them.

Ben

Len · #17 Post by **Len** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:24 am

Second group for me.

TomW · #18 Post by **TomW** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:35 am

I suppose I should elaborate a little more on the reasons why I fall into the third category.

THis shouldn't be a case of who is right or who is wrong in their approach and I hope it doesn't descend to that. Each of those who support any of the positions have valid reasons for doing so, therefore there can't be any way of saying categorically that one way is right and the other wrong.

I have studied the arrows from the Grayson collection covering a variety of countries and cultures and I have a particular love of the decorative presentation arrow, particularly the Mughal sets, which for me are works of art, which I might aspire to but could never emulate.

However it's worth noting that from the same collection many of the 18th and early 19th centruy military arrows (and bows) were also highly decorated. Certainly someone on the reciving end wouldn't care much one way or the other about decoration or the lack of it but it is instructive that even war arrows reflected the personality of the owners.

I am also fascinated by Turkish flight arrows. A set of these is shown in the collection and it is interesting to see that the area of the shaft(which is highly barrelled) under the fletches is "pinched" or waisted. These are 18th/early 19th century arrows and I doubt if the Turks had heard of the Area Rule of Aerodynamics in those days yet they seem to have felt that this pinching was somehow advantageous (even though it really wasn't at arrow speeds).

The Area Rule was discovered in the 1950s when flying got into the transonic/supersonic speed ranges and prior to it there was confusion as to why aircraft which were more than powerful enough to exceed the speed of sound by a wide margin weren't able to do so. The reason turned out to be the huge increase in drag as the transconic speed range was reached. It was later discovered that by reducing the diameter of the fuselage at the point where the wings were, so drag was greatly reduced.

The Area Rule:

"The area rule tells us that the volume of the body should be reduced in the presence of a wing, tail surface, or other projection so that there are no discontinuities in the cross-sectional area distribution of the vehicle shape."

So, was it intuition or science that drove such a development by the Turks? Whatever, that sort of thing fascinates me. Equally, footed shafts, which seem to be a bit over the top these days, were once (when I first started archery) the only way to go if you wanted a decent set of target arrows (I'm now talking about the early 50s, before aluminium and steel arrows arrived on the scene).

Footing was a means by which FOC could be brought into a more reasonable position by adding extra weight in the front of the arrow because there was no way of doing it with the existing points, which were nothing more than a swaged on pointed brass tube which offered no weight to speak of in the front of the arrow.

So I am attracted to footed arrows, because I used to use them for practical reasons and also because they look handsome.

Sorry to prattle on but I was simply trying to explain my philosophy about arrows. I'm neither right or wrong in my ideas about arrows, just personally committed to a point of view.

Abaci · #19 Post by **Abaci** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:53 am

I guess I'm in the 3rd group. I do spend a fair bit of time figuring out how I want my arrows to look which unfortunately is occasionally to the detriment of the arrow quality... not that I've tried these ones out yet but I make them and think they're really good then Matt will look at them and find something that I've missed such as a slightly crooked nock... I'll get there one day I hope, a nice arrow that I've enjoyed making that is technically as good as I can make it with the materials and tools that we have...

Nephew · #20 Post by **Nephew** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:40 am

I think they are really unique! Very creative Abaci, you should be proud of 'em.

TomW · #21 Post by **TomW** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:48 am

Abaci

Your painting skills are vastly better than mine. I envy you.

Great looking arrows.

Mick Smith · #22 Post by **Mick Smith** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:07 pm

Some fantastic posts there ladies and gentlemen.

I'm impressed with the amount information coming forward. It's always interesting for me, to know more about arrows. I've been making them for nearly four decades now, but there's still much to learn before I have any hope of turning out that 'ultimate arrow'.

Mick

african man · #23 Post by **african man** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:02 am

Stickbow Hunter wrote:G'day Chris,

Welcome to the site, it's good to have you here. Why don't you post a few photos of your arrows as we all like looking at photos.

Jeff

some photos

looseplucker · #24 Post by **looseplucker** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:24 pm

I tend to fall into the first category. I like my arras to look competantly made, but I don't crest or anything. I use 4" straight fletches - 2 orange and 1 black, bog standard nocks and field heads or standard glue on broadheads.

I treat my arras with a mix of beeswax and animal fat. Rubbing in a coating and using the heat of the rubbing in to get it into the wood. It repels water really nicely, and brings out the grain of the shafts (Woody's Vic Ash ones) quite well.

At the end of the day, I want mine to fly true, and given where I hunt is pretty rugged and wild, I don't like the idea of losing/shattering a shaft that has taken me ages to make and get creative with.

Mind you, the craftsmanship on this site is mind-blowing and those that take the time to really do their arrows aesthetically etc - my hat is off to you.

Scuzza · #25 Post by **Scuzza** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:04 pm

Hi Folks
I make hunting arrows plainly, flights, heads knocks, no real aesthetic qualities but with my target arrows i like them to look unique
just so there distinguishably mine
at times i wonder why as i often practice into the target but out the back and it wares the clear off the front of the shafts and i get plastic and everything sticking to the front of my arrows
But while were on the topic of arrows, is it normal for arrows to get a bend in a certain point, i understand that the arrow bends around the shelf with a longbow, could it be that my arrows are underspined?

Abaci, stunning arrows!!
And to african man aswell! my designs are simple im comparison, its great to see some aesthetically pleasing craft displayed and always good to see the youngans getting invloved!

Scuzz

Mick Smith · #26 Post by **Mick Smith** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:12 pm

looseplucker

You see mate, a true category 3 person doesn't mind all that much when a lovingly created arrow gets broken, as it gives him/her a good reason to start building some more.

Actually it doesn't take all that much longer to make a reasonably flash arrow than to make an ordinary one. I've just finished cresting 2 dozen arrows this afternoon, they're a fairly elaborate crest too, but all up, it only took me a couple of hours. I actually enjoy doing it, so I don't look upon it as work. I think Mr Henry Ford had the right idea when it came to assembly line production.

africa man

You're obviously a man in possession of the whole gambit when it comes to arrow styles and likes and dislikes. Your arrows range from primitive and very elaborate. Nice photos mate.

Nice arrows too. I particularly like the photo of your young fella out there enjoying himself with his dad.

Mick

#27 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:15 pm

Thanks for the photos Chris. It's great to see your young fella enjoys shootin a few arras as well.

Your arras look great but a couple did have a lot of cresting for sure.

(Woody's Vic Ash ones)

I think you mean FORRO's???

What do you make your broadheads from?

Jeff

GrahameA · #28 Post by **GrahameA** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 am

Morning Mick

This is an interesting post and I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think it is as simple as it first appears.

From my viewpoint there are two topics intertwined here;

* One is concerned with the visual appeal of the arrows. How much time and effort do people put into making arrows look Ã¢â‚¬Å“goodÃ¢â‚¬Â.

* The other is concerned with the technical side of the arrow. How much time and effort people put into making arrows that fly Ã¢â‚¬Å“goodÃ¢â‚¬Â.

Some people are fastidious about making the best Ã¢â‚¬ËœflyingÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ arrow they can yet the arrow will be, visually, rather plain. They spend hours carefully barreling shafts and matching shafts both in spine and weight. The important thing to them is how it flies not how it looks.

Other people have a greater level of concern for how it looks. They still make arrows that fly well but in addition will spend a prodigious amount of time decorating the arrow so that it becomes an Ã¢â‚¬ËœArtÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ piece as well.

My own experience suggests that you reach a stage whereby whilst you may make good arrows you do not spend hours finishing them if they are going to be used for a lot of shooting or breaking, getting lost, etc. In my own case I have settled for an extremely simple pattern for my everyday arrows. Once upon-a-time I did not even bother to cap the shafts. A few coats of varnish and some cresting was enough.

However, there are times when I want something special and thus I start splicing fletches and capping shafts.

And then there are shafts. Most people buy there shafts and away they go. Others make their own. Making shafts is not hard Ã¢â‚¬â€œ but it is time consuming and it adds another level of complexity to the whole process. (Plus it is good for testing your patience as you develop your skills.) And there are those who foot their shafts partly for flight characteristics and partly for the sheer beauty and self fulfillment of having a set of footed shafts.

In another area there are replica arrows. These can be extremely time consuming. Cutting self nocks can be done rather quickly once you have a system worked out Ã¢â‚¬â€œ but when you start adding hardwood, horn, phenolic, etc., reinforcements the time requirement increases greatly. And on top of that you have the time and effort in hand binding and cutting fletches plus trying to get appropriate arrow-heads. (Or in some cases making arrow heads.)

Ultimate Arrows? For me the ultimate arrow is a simply fletched X7. (I am not a fan of carbons. However, I am intrigued to try some FMJÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Ã¢â‚¬â€œ they may be the best of both worlds.) And if I was to crest them I would probably go to a wrap system.

Mick Smith · #29 Post by **Mick Smith** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:40 pm

G'day Grahame

I believe that you are right, there's certainly two intertwined topics here. For most of us they are so intertwined that they have become one. Personally, I can't see any point in making a fancy arrow that doesn't shoot as well as it should.

I suppose, like most people, the first thing I consider when contemplating the next batch of arrows are the technical aspects. I try to track down the very best and most suitable shafts that I can find. I might have spent many hours experimenting with different spined shafts before coming to my final selection. Once I've settled on the shafts that I prefer to use, I then start thinking about FOC and the best weight and type of point would go best on that particular shaft. I've done lots of tests over the years with FOC and I've come to the conclusion that it's better to shoot a more heavilly spined shaft with a heavier than usual point, than what it is to shoot a lightly spined shaft with a lightweight point. All sorts of weird things seem to start happening when I try shooting with poorly balanced arrows, even when they should be spined correctly to the bow that I'm using.

I much prefer a slightly heavier arrow to a lightweight one. A heavier arrow nearly always shoots to where I intend, unlike some of my experimental lightweight arrows. A heavier arrow seems to fly more cleanly as well, with much less bow noise and much less vibration.

It's nice to be able to take in the benefits of shooting a lightweight arrow, things like a flater trajectory, but I've long since come to the conclusion that it's simply not worth it. Sure you might have to hold a bit higher on the long shots, but apart from that, a heavier arrow offers a certain reliability and consistancy that can't be matched by anything else.

I've been dwelling on the differences between the various diameter shafts. I believe there could be some advantages offered by shafts of a smaller diameter. I think if you took two shafts that were the same overall weight, with the same weight points, with exactly the same spine, the narrower diameter arrow will offer certain advantages. I haven't done any research other than my own observations, but I believe the narrower shafts will shoot better. I believe they are generally more accurate and more forgiving of slight errors of form and technique and I think the reason for this is that the total mass of the arrow is centred more closely to the centre line of the bow. It mightn't make much difference when you're shooting a 'centre shot' bow, but it becomes more significant when shooting 'around the bow' with a longbow for example. It might not be much, but I find that it is noticable. I also believe that this is one of the reasons why small diameter carbon arrows seem to shoot so well. I would be interested to hear what other more 'scientific' members might have to say about this subject.

On the asthetic side of things, my original motivation to try coloured caps and bright coloured feathers, etc, was to be able to find my arrows lost in long grass, or to be able to see my arrows in near darkness, when all the bunnies are out and about. This is why most of my arrows have white rear ends. The crests are just a bit of 'icing on the cake'.

I'm actually thinking about buying myself some Easton aluminium shafts, some XX75's, mainly to use in the next clout nationals where they are allowed and commonly used by most competitors. I won't feel right about it though.

Mick

Jeffro · #30 Post by **Jeffro** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:19 pm

Heres my arrows ive made for my upcoming cape trip
I lightly spayed them with black so they dont stand out too much.I think that light color timber shafts on a bow quiver need a bit of camo

The creative aspects of arrow making?

The creative aspects of arrow making?

Re: The creative aspects of arrow making?