Getting Into Bow Making

Message

TomW · #1 Post by **TomW** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:21 am

I don't know whether to thank Grahame Amy or throttle him for awakening an urge in me to get involved in making traditional gear, in particular arrows and now bows.

I have a great love of the Asian bows and would love nothing more than to make one of my own. Things acting against this are a lack of time, lack of space, lack of suitable machinery, lack of knowledge and the daunting prospect of having to make complex looking mould jigs, hotboxes etc.

So, if you will indulge me, I have a few questions which I hope someone can help me with:

First up, I don't have the time, in particular, to go through a long "apprenticeship" in bowmaking and really do need to get involved in the process straight away.

One of the most important things I lack is essential background knowledge so my first question is - amongst all of the books written about the subject what are the best books to buy that would give me a good background knowledge of bowmaking using modern materials?

Secondly, is it always essential to have to build a mould for the bow? Are there any simpler ways of achieving the same end without investing a lot of time and space in constructing and keeping these things?

Third, is a hot box always required for making a bow out of modern materials?

Fourth - I presume these things are in lieu of hot boxes but are the heating elements sold by some USA firms a good substitute(albeit an expensive one) to the hot box.

Fifth - is wrapping the limbs in rubber strips as good a substitute for clamps or pressure hoses and if not, what is the preferred system of clamping?

In ending I'd like to point out that one of my greatest "weaknesses" is a reluctance to ask for advice and assistance, not because I don't need them but because I am greatly reluctant to impose my needs on others. In short - I hate putting people out, particularly when they are already busy enough themselves. Therefore any assistance I can get from the clearly experienced members of this forum would be greatly appreciated, if they are in a position to offer it.

Hope some of you good people can help.

Regards

Tom

Steven J · #2 Post by **Steven J** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:22 am

I'll answer your questions from my experiences, which do not include building horse bows.

I started making laminated longbows which I feel is a good starting point. The experience gained here will be invaluable for making horsebows too.

Answer 1 - A long apprenticeship is not necessary, however it took me until my 3rd bow to achieve my planned draw weight, and I have done so with that design since to +/- 2lb. If you want to make any bows from modern materials, John Clarkes books from www.ausbow.com.au will be most useful and excellent value for the information contained.

Answer 2 - If you start with a longbow, you can use a straight plank/steel RHS/laminated beam for your bow form.

Answer 3 - Techniglue is commonly used by bowyers. Most use a hot box to speed things up. I doubt whether additional strength is acheived by heating the glue, it just reaches its full strength sooner.

Answer 4 - A cheap hotbox can be made using a fridge box that you can get from a whitegoods store. Just stick a small fan heater inside and throw a few blankets over the top. A thermometer is useful to ensure that you don't get too hot (above 60 degrees).

Answer 5 - I have built bows by wrapping with tyre rubber in addition to other methods. I like the wrap method for recurve shapes, but find that for a longbow using clamps avoids the frustration of getting tangled in rubber.

Have fun. Do ask for help. For some reason, I won't ask for help from people in my community at home, but feel much less imposing asking for help here. As you have found out, people enjoy sharing in this forum.

Steve

TomW · #3 Post by **TomW** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:31 am

Steve

Many thanks for your thoughts and advice. I'll definitely get hold of John Clark's books.

Your idea of using a fridge carton as a hotbox is terrific. I had visions of having to build a proper cabinet with hinged top etc.

I suppose I should start with a longbow. I'll think about that. As I said, time is something I don;t have a lot of.

Thanks again mate.

Regards

Tom

yeoman · #4 Post by **yeoman** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:39 am

Congratulations/commiserations on deciding that you need to make bows. It's a good club.

While I agree that a long apprenticeship is not necessary, I would certainly not advocate jumping in at the deep end.

If laminated bows are your thing, I would start with the longbow, or maybe a simple recurve. Once you've got that process down pat, I'd start including other features like shorter length, siyahs, extreme recurve and stuff like that. By starting simply, I think you'll progress faster.

For a form, getting a board 150mmx50mm and 2m long (of course you can lay one up from 19mm flooring stacked up), you can make a one sided 'mould', where you bind the laminations down to it with either rubber strips or some such, instead of sandwiching the lams between two forms. This I think would be more versatile, and easier to make.

I've never made a glass bow, but I've heard that a hotbox is not always necessary. Summer's coming up...you could just leave it in your car on a 40 degree day with all the windows up. That's how some people rapid dry their selfbow staves.

I highly recommend the rubber strip method. It gives a more even clamping pressure, I find, as is extremely cheap (free).

As for your last comment, I know how you feel. Now that I've made a lot of bows I can tell you that the satisfaction you get from helping someone else make a bow is almost as good as making a bow yourself, so don't think that you're burdening us too much, eh?

Dave

GrahameA · #5 Post by **GrahameA** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:53 pm

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2990

Coach · #6 Post by **Coach** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:42 pm

Why the rolling eyes

Good luck Tom , I look forward to seeing your efforts. I think I'll stick to making knives for awhile , my shed is cluttered enough

TomW · #7 Post by **TomW** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:04 pm

Dave

Thanks for the thoughts. I like the idea of a single form only. Sounds like me.

Coach

Thanks for the good wishes. My workshop is about the same. Full of stuff that has no relationship to bowmaking and room is at a premium

Grahame

Just to re-assure you, I did a search using your search engine and could not find the article you referred to. With "Search" it's always knowing what to search for. For example, I entered "horsebows" and got everything else besides.

Ditto when I entered Mongolian and Asian bows. Since those are my interests, I didn't search for anything else

All the same, the article looks good but the moulds frighten me. I don;t want to go via a complicated route. I'll have to ponder the subject more and definitely get those books. Thanks mate.

Regards

Tom

GrahameA · #8 Post by **GrahameA** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:08 pm

Hi Tom

Would you believe it's my almost encycyclopedic knowledge of what been posted on this forum? Yes/No??

That writeup is a handy little piece to have make sure you get the pdf and print it.

There are a couple of other posts showing bows being formed over much simpler forms/structures. There is another article you need to have a squiz at - will bring a small stack of light reading on Saturday.

Search engines and information retriieval is only as good as the person doing the seach and the data.

#9 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:59 pm

G'day Tom,

Here are a couple more threads, by Archangel, that might interest you.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

All the best mate.

Jeff

TomW · #10 Post by **TomW** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:08 pm

Search engines and information retriieval is only as good as the person doing the seach and the data

SIGH! So that's my problem. Sadly I'm stuck with me so I can't change that bit.

I'm keen to see what you bring out to the club on Saturday.

Jeff

Many thanks for those two references. Good value and a lot of useful information there.

I think I've found the solution to the issue of forming moulds. I found an article on the Bowyers Den Forum (USA) which describes the making of a Mongolian horsebow - exactly what I am after. If I'm going to stuff the thing up I'd rather stuff up something I want and thereby learn what to fix for the next time. The pictures say it all:

matt_d · #11 Post by **matt_d** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:20 pm

Tom,
A good brew is key to success in any form of bowmaking

Having seen the quality of your work to date, I'm certain that you'll do really well!
Good luck mate

TomW · #12 Post by **TomW** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:42 pm

Thanks Matt

I really appreciate the support.

greybeard · #13 Post by **greybeard** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:07 pm

Hi Tom,
I think the bow you featured was created by brainbruise.
This is one of his postings on the site, you can search for earlier ones for details on the build a long.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o239 ... one011.jpg
Still on 'L' plates trying to drive this b*#+*/> computer but search in his profile for all postings.

Daryl.

GrahameA · #14 Post by **GrahameA** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:21 am

Hi Darryl & Tom

There you go.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4721&

TomW · #15 Post by **TomW** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:40 am

Hi Daryl and Grahame

Thanks for the URLs. That's the bow. Pity about his user name - sounds painful

I really appreciate the input from all of you. I'll be doing a lot more reading and research before I start this little project but I am determined now to give it a go.

Regards

Tom

Len · #16 Post by **Len** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:34 am

All the best with your efforts Tom from a fellow novice. But beware, once you start it sucks you in and wont let go ! I've got a half made sword in the shed thats supposed to be ready to be picked up next Sunday but what do I do every time I get the chance to get in the shed ? Yep I start looking at bits of timber and start fiddeling about

Looking at what else your've made shows that once you decide to do something you do it well so I'm really looking forward to seeing how you go.

TomW · #17 Post by **TomW** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:03 am

Thanks Len

I'm a bit like you in that I'm worried it is going to suck me in too far.

I love making things and I've always wanted to make my own bow and now that I'm about to start I can hardly wait, but I don't want to rush into it unprepared.

I love the Mongol bow design and also the Turkish bows, although the latter look to be a bit daunting at this stage.

The last thing I want is to end up with a garage full of bow forms, "ovens" etc

I did notice however that Daryl (Greybeard) had made an adjustable form which could cater for a variety of bows, which I thought was brilliant! (If I am wrong as to the originator I apologise profusely)

I might try to copy something like this if I feel the bug biting too deeply.

I guess they don't call it the "Witchery of Archery" for nothing.

In the end, it's all great fun though - I think.

TomW · #18 Post by **TomW** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:39 am

I'm probably at risk of making myself appear to be a nervous ninny but I'm beginning to feel a bit edgy and uneasy about my thoughts of making a bow of my own.

I've just finished reading John Clark's first book, "Making a Long Bow" and it is clear to me, at least, that the business of making a bow is fraught with many possibilities for failure.

For example, just to mention a few -

1. I'm still not certain whether I should be going for tapered laminations for a horsebow or untapered and I don't know how to resolve this issue.

2. I'm also nervous about pasting glue on all of the laminations and trying to hold them together whilst trying to "clamp" them to a form. I have visions of myself and everything within close reach being covered in glue, which is setting off, and struggling to try to get the things put together properly.

3. Clamping concerns me too. John mentions how important it is not to apply excessive clamping force. How does one judge this? I don't subscribe to the school of thought that says to try it and if it fails then you know better next time. This smacks too much of the "crash through or crash" method of operation for my tastets.

4. I'm confused about the clamping issue using rubber banding. Should one use this alone or reinforce this with G clamps? John also mentions the use of rubber foam strips of diminishing size to help ensure an even spread of pressure on the clamped limbs. What sort of rubber foam - how thick and how firm, and this is a further compounding problem in itself - not only am I going to be trying to keep a number of wood and fibreglass laminations together but I'm also going to have to keep three strips of rubber foam on top of this as well, in line and then with my fifth and sixth hands get on with clamping the thing together.

I could go on further but I think you get my drift. After all of the exeprience of the people on this forum who have made their own bows there must surely be a body of experience and knowledge which can assist a tyro like me and help prevent my first effort from become a very messy, expensive disaster.

I have had experience before in using epoxy glues in building a one design racing sailing skiff, which was a highly stressed design and which I was able to accomplish successfully and formidable as that job appeared to me on starting, it seems now to be simple by comparison with building a bow.

Some reassurance and helpful advice would be appreciated at this stage before I scrap the whole idea.

Help - please

Gringa Bows · #19 Post by **Gringa Bows** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:12 am

hello tom.w. ive just read that same book. i am getting one of john clarks long bow kits in the near future for my first attempt at bow making and hopefully learn alot from it .the the answers you are after will also help me so im looking forward to the replies . thanks............rod

Steven J · #20 Post by **Steven J** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:55 am

Don't give up yet guys! Things are not that bad.

I'll try to answer your questions with a few thoughts from my own experience.

Tapered or Untapered???
The bow will still be functional either way. I generally stick to 4 tapers of 0.01 per inch for my longbows. It keeps the tips a bit stiffer and makes for a bow with less handshock. For a horsebow, that is up to you to experiment. Don't expect that you will produce the bow of your dreams first time around. Actually don't expect to produce the bow of your dreams - the human condition is that we are never entirely satisfied. You just have to experiment here. When changing from tapers to parallels you should be able to make fairly close correlation with draw weight if you follow John's RCT technique.

Oh no I have covered myself with glue and my bow is in pieces all over the floor!
Your technique will change as you build more bows. For my first bow, my laminations separated giving a 1/2 inch gap where they meet in the middle of the bow - it looked terrible but could be covered with a leather grip. I have now got my technique sorted so that I never have more than a millimeter gap when they move.

Can I over clamp?
I don't think that you can overclamp. However clamping pressure has a big impact on draw weight. I just purchased some nice Record clamps that have a finer pitch thread than my usual cheapies. The addional mechanical advantage with the finer thread just dropped 7lb from a 30lb bow. I clamp down with my cheapie clamps with a reasonably hard force. Not as hard as I can but certainly hard enough to start crushing the radiata pine clamping cauls.

Must go for a second. Be back in a minute

Steven J · #21 Post by **Steven J** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:21 am

I'm back.

As for clamping with rubber and other clamps.
I have only made one kids recurve using the rubber band method. I really liked it for doing the curves. As for a longbow that is straight laid I would not bother. For a horsebow where you want to avoid complicated male and female forms I would use the rubber band method.

The type of rubber that John refers to is very hard conveyor belt rubber. I could not find any so I just tiered some 4mm MDF to do the same job. It is quite flexible in 40mm widths. Clamp them with a regular clamp at some point along the bow, then start wrapping them down from the handle to the tips. When you get to the clamp or have done a short length of wrapping, you can remove the clamp and keep going.

The advantage of the rubber method is that the glue squeezes out from the sides and does not requrie as much cleaning up before you can mark out the profile of the limbs.

I am happy to talk further with this over the phone if you would like. Just PM me and we'll sort that out.

Steve

TomW · #22 Post by **TomW** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:24 am

Steven J

Thanks for the information and the encouragement.

Perhaps I am making a mountain out of a molehill - but I don't think so. I fully expect that making a bow is going to be a taxing challenge and both you and Daryl have offered their assistance for which I am hugely grateful.

Your comments re clamping are encouraging. Perhaps it won't be quite so fraught as I expected.

I need to be able to visualise how I am going to perform something before actually doing it. If I can't do this (or can't resolve problems that might crop up) I usually stuff things up. So it stands at present with my thoughts on bowmaking.

I need to think the processes through more carefully and aided by your advice (which was most helpful) I expect that I will soon be able to mentally go through the process fairly successfully and maybe be able to make a reasonable fist of the job - I hope.

I will get in touch with you as time goes on if that is OK because I am absolutely sure that this is just the beginnings of my concerns.
Thanks mate.

Steven J · #23 Post by **Steven J** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:50 am

Please contact me as needed Tom, I am only too happy to help where I can.

Steve

GrahameA · #24 Post by **GrahameA** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:41 am

Morning Tom

You may enjoy this plus it will give some idea of how Martin make their Damon-Howatts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXAfWLd34QA

TomW · #25 Post by **TomW** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:36 am

Morning Grahame

And there I was thinking how difficult it was going to be, making a laminated longbow and here's Martin showing us how simple it all is.................................................................................................NOT!!

Good video though. I'd love to have half their tools and a fraction of their expertise. SIGH!!!

jcm · #26 Post by **jcm** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:16 am

Tom,
Saw your challenge so posting some DVDS.
"How to construct the Asiatic Composite Bow"
Bow Making -the Easy way.
Bingham projects- Building Your own longbow
Building your own takedown. (Sorry recurve DVD out on loan)
View , note and return when ready.(No late fee)
Regards

John

TomW · #27 Post by **TomW** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:54 am

John

That's incredibly kind and thoughtful of you and I am extremely grateful.

I have no doubt they will be of enormous help. I will take good care of them and get them back to you at the earliest.

I have to add that this is probably the most helpful and friendly archery site I have ever come across and I am continually surprised and touched by the wonderful assistance that the experienced and knowledgeable are willing to give to those who are less so.

Many thanks to you in particular, John and to all who have offered help.

Steven J · #28 Post by **Steven J** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:19 am

John,

Thats a really kind thing to do. What a good bloke.

Steve

Mick Smith · #29 Post by **Mick Smith** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:23 am

I've never actually met John, although one day I certainly hope to. If we ever do actually meet, I'm expecting him to have a bright aurora emanating from above his head somewhere.

Good on you John!!

Mick

TomW · #30 Post by **TomW** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:53 pm

I would consider it a great privilege to meet John as well as other members of this Forum. Regrettably I can't see it happening, but I wish them all the best for the future and congratulate them again on their generosity and thoughtfulness.