G'day to all & especially anyone thinking of buying a longbow from an American eBay seller with a user name blue_ridge_traditional_archery.
I was stupid enough to bid successfully for one (the only bidder) and got it for US$189.00. I should have clued up to the possibility that the bow was a piece of junk when I saw the low price.
Although I know nothing about the making of a longbow I do know several Australian bowyers who make truly magnificent longbows. One of these bowyers is fixing the bow for me & tillering it correctly as it was tillered all wrong and is cutting it back, shaping the riser properly, sanding it properly & applying a descent finish for me.
The bow I am talking about is a A terrible longbow. the USA maker doesn't know much about bows or how to complete them. The riser was gouged into shape & gouge marks are left, very little sanding is apparent & a coat of gloss was slapped on which highlights the rasp gouging marks & scratches & the disgraceful shaping job.
the limbs are upside down, he obviously knows nothing about the need to correctly tiller a longbow so it fires arrows properly.
I also specified 47lb draw at 28 inches & it has been measured at 43lb, before re-tillering.
He should seek advise on correct bowmaking as he is lowering the fine reputation of other American bowyers whom I'm told produce beautiful longbows that shoot smoothly and as accurately as the skill of the archer allows. My next longbow however is definitely going to be one made by an Australian Bowyer
I gave blue_ridge_traditional_archery, the blokes name is Adam Daug, negative eBay feedback as I'm not afraid to cop a retaliatory negative in return. Of course he did fire in a retaliatory neg & claimed there is no such thing as reverse tillering and made other claims about me trying to steal money & keep the bow. I know the truth & I only asked that he compensate me the cost ($60) that it is costing me to have the bow fixed.
This is a pretty long winded story but I think it is worth telling in case any others here in Aust are thinking of buying a bow from this seller. Don't make the same dumb mistake I did. We have some of the best bowyers in the world here & after freight cost from the USA is added Aussie bows are no dearer than the USA bows.
ubbrd.
poorly made longbows
Moderator: Moderators
Very sorry to hear of your misfortune Ubbrd. What part of the U.S. is this fellow located? I travel to a lot of shoots, especially in the Southeast, but I've never heard of him or his company.
There are a lot of fine bowyers here in the U.S., and not every cheap bow is junk, but I know that where there's a dollar to be made you will generally find some skunks lurking. Hope the bow can be made into something worth shooting.
Chad
There are a lot of fine bowyers here in the U.S., and not every cheap bow is junk, but I know that where there's a dollar to be made you will generally find some skunks lurking. Hope the bow can be made into something worth shooting.
Chad
Long Bows Rule!
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danceswithdingoes
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:48 pm
- Location: Kyogle NSW
You can't go past buying a Barry Johnson or John Gaston longbow as they are fine examples of a bowyers art. Having said that I now have two bows (soon to be four) from an American bowyer (Bob Rousselo, Kohannah Bows) before I bought them (second hand from Phill- Crowcreek) I did a lot of checking on US trad forums to ensure the legitamacy of the chosen bowyer, if he's dudded others they'll know about it. I suggest you do a search on TradTalk, ArcheryTalk-Trad, Stickbow and Trad Gang for this flea and maybe post some negative feedback on there too as it tends to be a large but tight community over there.
G'day LBR & Dances with Dingoes. Adam Daug is from Rocky Mount, Virginia in the USA. I know how good many US bowyers are and how good the quality of US made bows. People like Adam Daug give the many fine US bowyers a bad name it is a shame.
I have seen Barry Johnston bows & bows made by other Australians that are true works of craftsmanship.
all I wanted from Adam Daug was reimbursement of the $60 it is costing me to have the bow fixed. He is telling all sorts of lies & accusing me of threatening him.
I have kept all the emails back & forwards to & from Adam Daug if any one is interested, it is good reading. If anyone would like to know the name of the Bowyer who is fixing the bow, let me know your email address & I'll give you details. he will tell you about the terrible workmanship. I think I remember that Rob & Uncle Les from Traditional Archery Australia have also seen the bow.
ubbrd
I have seen Barry Johnston bows & bows made by other Australians that are true works of craftsmanship.
all I wanted from Adam Daug was reimbursement of the $60 it is costing me to have the bow fixed. He is telling all sorts of lies & accusing me of threatening him.
I have kept all the emails back & forwards to & from Adam Daug if any one is interested, it is good reading. If anyone would like to know the name of the Bowyer who is fixing the bow, let me know your email address & I'll give you details. he will tell you about the terrible workmanship. I think I remember that Rob & Uncle Les from Traditional Archery Australia have also seen the bow.
ubbrd
Poorly made long bow
G'day all. The long bow I bought from blue_ridge_traditional_archery (Adam Daug) in the USA has been fixed. The bowyer reshaped the riser, re finished it, re tillered it correctly & put better tips on the limbs. the bow shoots much better although it is now only 40lb draw weight. this reduction in draw weight is as a result of the re tillering and could not be avoided. The bow was never the requested 47lb (give or take a bit) but was only 43lb.
ubbrd.
ubbrd.
Hi, Sorry to hear about your bad luck. It's not your fault about getting a bad product, but I don't know of any bowyer who consciously ties to scam people and yet delivers a bow(perhaps a novice that has bitten off more than he can chew?). There are plenty of easier ways to make money if you are a con artist(or even a regular hardworking Joe). That being said your bow should have been correctly tillered and around 3lbs + or - the specified draw weight. I think some of the problem stems from peoples worth of a bow.
Everyone likes a bargain(myself especially). However bows are quite labour intensive to make well ie properly tillered selfbow, durable, let alone with all the bells and whistles from the finish to the grip, arrow shelf, and a proper string. Many guys on this site who have successfully made them can testify to that.
An experienced bowyer in the UK I know of only manages 2, maybe 3 hickory backed laminated English longbows a week, and he has honed as much of the grunt work to production like effeciency, so he can monopolize his craftsmanship where it is needed the most, ie tillering.
Materials are relatively expensive, not just the base price, a piece of wood with unsuitable grain, or small drying checks costs as much as a perfectly seasoned, straight grained board of a suitable species at the timber merchants. This also doesn't take into account the time a professional bowyer, sorts through piles of wood to try and find the right piece. It can take hours and the results can be meagre. Most of these problems don't come about if your making a fibreglass composite because
wood selection isn't as critical and the man made materials are consistently available and reliable(yet even they aren't cheap). I find most people are prepared to pay alot more for composite bow than a selfbow, though selfbows have about 3 times or more labour involved and material selection is more crucial.
If a bow takes a man the 1\2 a week or a week to make, a professional at least is going to expect as much money or fair proportion of as any other man earns in the same time for a "regular" job. Plus compensation for the costs of materials, tools etc. If you take this into account you won't find a cheap bargain from a professional bowyer, at least not one that is still in business. Indeed you will find that they cant afford to put on much of a margin at all, even if the price seems expensive at first.
The true cost of someone elses experience and labour puts many off buying a good bow. That is why so many guys have a go at making a bow themselves.
There are plenty of good bowyers the world round. Potential buyers need to be aware on ebay that every man and their dog wants to make a buck from being a bowyer. You can get a good deal occasionally, there are plenty of good craftsmen who aren't professional bowyers whose hobby is making bows. If they have a well paid regular job they subsidize the real cost of their bows. They would rather get rid of a good bow at a cheap price that is cluttering up their house and gain some money for some new materials for their next bow.
Converesley some people want to get rid of their failed experiments, substandard bows, basically trying to charge you to get rid of their junk. Some are just well meaning but misguided novices who overestimate their current level proficiency.
Sorry for hijacking your post. I've been making bows for 10years(and boy am I tired). The amount of people whose jaws drop when you quote a fair price, is the majority. I think the price issue has been building up in me for a long time. Please don't take any of my opinions as a personal attack. You are right to let other people know of your unsatisfactory experience with this particular bowyer. The bowyer who has done the repairs for $60 is giving you a good price too. A tradesman eg electrician would charge at least that for an hours work plus parts.
Usually you get what you pay for. The only exception seems to be if the labour comes from a third world country, where people are paid significantly less than Australia. Bowyers will really be in trouble if the Chinese start to make self bows.
Hamish.
Everyone likes a bargain(myself especially). However bows are quite labour intensive to make well ie properly tillered selfbow, durable, let alone with all the bells and whistles from the finish to the grip, arrow shelf, and a proper string. Many guys on this site who have successfully made them can testify to that.
An experienced bowyer in the UK I know of only manages 2, maybe 3 hickory backed laminated English longbows a week, and he has honed as much of the grunt work to production like effeciency, so he can monopolize his craftsmanship where it is needed the most, ie tillering.
Materials are relatively expensive, not just the base price, a piece of wood with unsuitable grain, or small drying checks costs as much as a perfectly seasoned, straight grained board of a suitable species at the timber merchants. This also doesn't take into account the time a professional bowyer, sorts through piles of wood to try and find the right piece. It can take hours and the results can be meagre. Most of these problems don't come about if your making a fibreglass composite because
wood selection isn't as critical and the man made materials are consistently available and reliable(yet even they aren't cheap). I find most people are prepared to pay alot more for composite bow than a selfbow, though selfbows have about 3 times or more labour involved and material selection is more crucial.
If a bow takes a man the 1\2 a week or a week to make, a professional at least is going to expect as much money or fair proportion of as any other man earns in the same time for a "regular" job. Plus compensation for the costs of materials, tools etc. If you take this into account you won't find a cheap bargain from a professional bowyer, at least not one that is still in business. Indeed you will find that they cant afford to put on much of a margin at all, even if the price seems expensive at first.
The true cost of someone elses experience and labour puts many off buying a good bow. That is why so many guys have a go at making a bow themselves.
There are plenty of good bowyers the world round. Potential buyers need to be aware on ebay that every man and their dog wants to make a buck from being a bowyer. You can get a good deal occasionally, there are plenty of good craftsmen who aren't professional bowyers whose hobby is making bows. If they have a well paid regular job they subsidize the real cost of their bows. They would rather get rid of a good bow at a cheap price that is cluttering up their house and gain some money for some new materials for their next bow.
Converesley some people want to get rid of their failed experiments, substandard bows, basically trying to charge you to get rid of their junk. Some are just well meaning but misguided novices who overestimate their current level proficiency.
Sorry for hijacking your post. I've been making bows for 10years(and boy am I tired). The amount of people whose jaws drop when you quote a fair price, is the majority. I think the price issue has been building up in me for a long time. Please don't take any of my opinions as a personal attack. You are right to let other people know of your unsatisfactory experience with this particular bowyer. The bowyer who has done the repairs for $60 is giving you a good price too. A tradesman eg electrician would charge at least that for an hours work plus parts.
Usually you get what you pay for. The only exception seems to be if the labour comes from a third world country, where people are paid significantly less than Australia. Bowyers will really be in trouble if the Chinese start to make self bows.
Hamish.
Poorly made Long bow
G'day Hamish. Thanks for your very wise comments. Being new to Traditional archery I didn't know as much about longbows when I bought the bow in question as I do now.
I have learned a lot since this experience & I am now convinced that one only gets what one pays for.
Decent longbows aren't cheap & I now appreciate the amount of time & work that goes into the making of such bows not to mention the cost of materials.
Since buying this bow I have got to know several Australian bowyers who make truly magnificent bows. Of course they don't come cheap but when I weigh up the cost of the substandard bow from the USA seller plus the cost of freight plus the $60A it cost me to have the bow's problems rectified it would have been cheaper for me to buy an Australian made bow. Having said this I do know that there are many brilliant overseas bowyers in both the USA & the UK. The English longbow appeals to me & maybe I will get one someday.
My experience with the substandard bow has not dampened my enthusiasm for longbows but in future I will do my homework & buy more judiciously from recognized & recommended bowyers, overseas and here in Aust.
Regards & thanks for your advise.
Warren.
I have learned a lot since this experience & I am now convinced that one only gets what one pays for.
Decent longbows aren't cheap & I now appreciate the amount of time & work that goes into the making of such bows not to mention the cost of materials.
Since buying this bow I have got to know several Australian bowyers who make truly magnificent bows. Of course they don't come cheap but when I weigh up the cost of the substandard bow from the USA seller plus the cost of freight plus the $60A it cost me to have the bow's problems rectified it would have been cheaper for me to buy an Australian made bow. Having said this I do know that there are many brilliant overseas bowyers in both the USA & the UK. The English longbow appeals to me & maybe I will get one someday.
My experience with the substandard bow has not dampened my enthusiasm for longbows but in future I will do my homework & buy more judiciously from recognized & recommended bowyers, overseas and here in Aust.
Regards & thanks for your advise.
Warren.
Warren, I feel your pain. I occasionally buy vintage or antique bows from overseas for researching their designs, as well as full length yew staves. One bow costs at least US$150 to be couriered to Australia. As you probably know the pain doesn't end there. Depending upon the company and their policies regarding the value of the item. You will get slugged at least $50 formal customs entry,for the pleasure of letting customs charge you GST, perhaps 15% of duty for manufactured archery articles. It just depends upon who processes the form and if they're having a bad day. Gst 10%is also calculated on the entire price of the goods+ duty +the cost of the shipping even though 99% doesn't occur in Australia.
For anyone interested in Importing Archery products for personal use, I would suggest bows with a takedown sleeve or folding hinges. They cost a bit more for the convenience, but they can usually come in via post, which is much cheaper, and have a more relaxed customs threshold. Most of the time you won't have to pay any taxes, or customs entry fees. Onlypay customs entry if the value of goods is over A$1000.
Hamish.
For anyone interested in Importing Archery products for personal use, I would suggest bows with a takedown sleeve or folding hinges. They cost a bit more for the convenience, but they can usually come in via post, which is much cheaper, and have a more relaxed customs threshold. Most of the time you won't have to pay any taxes, or customs entry fees. Onlypay customs entry if the value of goods is over A$1000.
Hamish.
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Andrea Willett
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Importing Yew Bowstaves
Hello Hamish!
How do you go about importing yew bowstaves into Oz? I sort of looked into it a while ago but it looked very complex and expensive. There was a seller of yew bowstaves on ebay in America but the staves had bark. When I checked the Oz customs website I couldn't import timber with bark. If it had been de-barked it had to be heat treated either at point of origin or when it arrived as well. I asked the supplier about costs involved in him de-barking before sending it but he didn't want to know. The freight was going to be 2-3 times the value of the stave into the bargain.
Andrea
How do you go about importing yew bowstaves into Oz? I sort of looked into it a while ago but it looked very complex and expensive. There was a seller of yew bowstaves on ebay in America but the staves had bark. When I checked the Oz customs website I couldn't import timber with bark. If it had been de-barked it had to be heat treated either at point of origin or when it arrived as well. I asked the supplier about costs involved in him de-barking before sending it but he didn't want to know. The freight was going to be 2-3 times the value of the stave into the bargain.
Andrea
Hi Andrea, Bark isn't a problem except for the added expense of Gamma irradiation treatment by quarantine about A$40-$50. Unless the stave is fully seasoned(many years) its safer to leave the bark on anyway, especially with billets as surface mail can take up to 3 months to arrive from the states. Most sellers don't like to remove the bark themselves because of the time and care it takes to do.
Depending on where you live you can go to the courier's quarantined area and remove the bark yourself. The quarantine guys are usually only in for a couple of hours a day so you have to get in early. Its quite a job to do especially of the sapwood is thin without gouging the wood too deeply. If I need to get full lenth staves in the future I will definitely get them treated.
Aust Post is good for billets. They are too busy to let you come in and clean them and if the wood has bark you have to get it treated, or it will get destoyed. You can order up to 44lbs weight of wood in one shipment, billets max 42" long from USA. It will cost about A$100 for 44lbsUSPS+ $50 for quarantine. Tax etc depends upon how cheap you get them for. If you buy them for US$250 a pair then you will be up for tax. However I have got yew billets for as little as $US40, you just have to keep your eyes open.
Unless you want a warbow design that is over 80lbs and bends through the handle, I would recommend billets. If you haven't made a self bow before, its better to try a bamboo backed piece of ironbark or another tough Aussie hardwood, to learn how to tiller.
In some ways it is easier to get staves from overseas than Australia. Even though we have some excellent native timbers they don't grow anyware near where I live. They are hard to dry without degrade, most timber suppliers don't know how to cut or select for bows. I'm not a big fan of board bows either. A lot of effort to find one with straight enough grain, the right species, right dimensions. For an English longbow, narrow limbs with a rounded belly you can cut two from the same board, one may work the other mightn't even survive tillering. Grain is so critical, however wider flatter bow designs are more forgiving of board selection.
Hamish.
Depending on where you live you can go to the courier's quarantined area and remove the bark yourself. The quarantine guys are usually only in for a couple of hours a day so you have to get in early. Its quite a job to do especially of the sapwood is thin without gouging the wood too deeply. If I need to get full lenth staves in the future I will definitely get them treated.
Aust Post is good for billets. They are too busy to let you come in and clean them and if the wood has bark you have to get it treated, or it will get destoyed. You can order up to 44lbs weight of wood in one shipment, billets max 42" long from USA. It will cost about A$100 for 44lbsUSPS+ $50 for quarantine. Tax etc depends upon how cheap you get them for. If you buy them for US$250 a pair then you will be up for tax. However I have got yew billets for as little as $US40, you just have to keep your eyes open.
Unless you want a warbow design that is over 80lbs and bends through the handle, I would recommend billets. If you haven't made a self bow before, its better to try a bamboo backed piece of ironbark or another tough Aussie hardwood, to learn how to tiller.
In some ways it is easier to get staves from overseas than Australia. Even though we have some excellent native timbers they don't grow anyware near where I live. They are hard to dry without degrade, most timber suppliers don't know how to cut or select for bows. I'm not a big fan of board bows either. A lot of effort to find one with straight enough grain, the right species, right dimensions. For an English longbow, narrow limbs with a rounded belly you can cut two from the same board, one may work the other mightn't even survive tillering. Grain is so critical, however wider flatter bow designs are more forgiving of board selection.
Hamish.
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Andrea Willett
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:42 am
- Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Yew Staves
Hello Hamish!
Does the GIT get done here after it arrives?
Was that freight calculation AUD100 freight + AUD50 GIT + AUD50 customs or AUD100 freight + AUD50 customs/GIT? AustPost has a length restriction on packages, don't they?
I don't intend to make a yew bow in the near future. Not until I have a few more bows under my belt. My first D-section attempt in ash was under-powered and has massive string follow. I know a few places I went wrong and my next attempt will be better. What I really wanted was the yew stave in the shed waiting. Then I could go out and run my hands over it every now and again. : ) Here is the ebay shop that had the yew <http>
I went in to see my boss yesterday as I knew he had a country block to ask if he was cutting any trees down soon that might have straight bits. "Well no I wasn't but you can have one if you want. I've got such'n'such Oz tree and so'n'so Oz tree and that elm stand of course. Is elm any use?" "Yes elm would do nicely actually. (Thinking ELM! HE HAS ELM! YEEESSSSSS!)" So he took me out there in the afternoon and I picked out my elm. It's about 10" at the base tapering to 6"ish after about 3 X 6' lengths that appear almost knot-free. We're hopefully cutting it down this Saturday. YEEEEEEE-HAH! Then I'll have something to play with.
Andrea
Does the GIT get done here after it arrives?
Was that freight calculation AUD100 freight + AUD50 GIT + AUD50 customs or AUD100 freight + AUD50 customs/GIT? AustPost has a length restriction on packages, don't they?
I don't intend to make a yew bow in the near future. Not until I have a few more bows under my belt. My first D-section attempt in ash was under-powered and has massive string follow. I know a few places I went wrong and my next attempt will be better. What I really wanted was the yew stave in the shed waiting. Then I could go out and run my hands over it every now and again. : ) Here is the ebay shop that had the yew <http>
I went in to see my boss yesterday as I knew he had a country block to ask if he was cutting any trees down soon that might have straight bits. "Well no I wasn't but you can have one if you want. I've got such'n'such Oz tree and so'n'so Oz tree and that elm stand of course. Is elm any use?" "Yes elm would do nicely actually. (Thinking ELM! HE HAS ELM! YEEESSSSSS!)" So he took me out there in the afternoon and I picked out my elm. It's about 10" at the base tapering to 6"ish after about 3 X 6' lengths that appear almost knot-free. We're hopefully cutting it down this Saturday. YEEEEEEE-HAH! Then I'll have something to play with.
Andrea
Hi Andrea, The costs in my last post, were for 44lbs of billets(4-5 pairs in yew), max 42" length, via US postal service to Australia. approx A$100 for postage. Quarantine treatment A$50. If your billets were US$40 each, 4-5pairs = $160-200. It is highly unlikely you will get charged GST.
Post max length from USA is 42" so no full length staves.
For Couriers eg UPS or Fed Ex, you will have to pay$US$150 at Least for one stave. Then you will have to payquarantine costs. The gov seems to make you pay alot more for stuff via couriers. You will have to pay an inspection fee/metre. Then irradiation costs, potentially duty if the guy on the day deems your staves are partly manufactured bows. The gst is added at the end of the transaction on all the pocesses that go before. Sometimes you get charged a double inspection fee, once when the staves come in another when you scrape the bark off.
I have found less red tape when stuff goes via UPS. I nearly always get headaches and more govt costs when I use, or the supplier insists on using Fed Ex.
By the way, you don't keep yew in the shed. You keep it in the bedroom(or at least inside the house).
Elm should do you well, I've been trying to get some for backings, as it has a good tension strength. It also works well for wide flatbows. Some of the guys in the Northern hemisphere use it for english bows but they usually reflex it and heat treat it to stop excessive stringfollow.
Was your ash bow from European, or Australian Ash?
Hamish.
Post max length from USA is 42" so no full length staves.
For Couriers eg UPS or Fed Ex, you will have to pay$US$150 at Least for one stave. Then you will have to payquarantine costs. The gov seems to make you pay alot more for stuff via couriers. You will have to pay an inspection fee/metre. Then irradiation costs, potentially duty if the guy on the day deems your staves are partly manufactured bows. The gst is added at the end of the transaction on all the pocesses that go before. Sometimes you get charged a double inspection fee, once when the staves come in another when you scrape the bark off.
I have found less red tape when stuff goes via UPS. I nearly always get headaches and more govt costs when I use, or the supplier insists on using Fed Ex.
By the way, you don't keep yew in the shed. You keep it in the bedroom(or at least inside the house).
Elm should do you well, I've been trying to get some for backings, as it has a good tension strength. It also works well for wide flatbows. Some of the guys in the Northern hemisphere use it for english bows but they usually reflex it and heat treat it to stop excessive stringfollow.
Was your ash bow from European, or Australian Ash?
Hamish.