Fastflight and longbows

Message

Brumbies Country · #1 Post by **Brumbies Country** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:35 pm

Just wondered about fast flight strings and longbows. I have heard so many conflicting stories. One story is that longbows stand a fair chance of breaking with FF. Another story is that it is OK if in Flemish twist. Another stressed reinforced tips. I'd be grateful for some informed opinion.

I ask the question with the thought that it may offer advantages in longer target shooting

Mick Smith · #2 Post by **Mick Smith** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:05 pm

I believe the whole Fastflite string with older bows question hinges on the how the tips are made, or more precisely, what materials are used to reinforce the tips. I think the thinner loops of most Fastflite strings will eventually cut their way through unstrengthened bow tips. This is sometimes circumvented by making a Fastflight string with thicker loops.
This is my take on the subject, but you might be best to get further advice as I have no practical experience in this area.

Mick

#3 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:40 pm

BC,

I, and many of my mates have been using FF, and in recent years Dyna Flight, on our longbows and selfbows without any problems at all. We started using FF back around 1992 or so.

We have used these strings on self bows with very fine tips and no reinforcing on the tips at all. They have never damaged a bow yet.

I have made many dozens of laminated longbows and haven't had problems caused by the strings.

We have all used Flemish Twist strings and usually use a few extra stands in the loops to make them a little thicker.

The DF strings have two big advantages. The first one - the reason I started to use them - is it virtually eliminates handshock.

The second avantage is the increase in arra speed. We found it increased arra speeds on average about 7fps. This speed increase would be like shooting a bow that was 5lbs heavier.

Jeff

Brumbies Country · #4 Post by **Brumbies Country** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:56 pm

Stickbow Hunter wrote:BC,

I, and many of my mates have been using FF, and in recent years Dyna Flight, on our longbows and selfbows without any problems at all. We started using FF back around 1992 or so.

We have used these strings on self bows with very fine tips and no reinforcing on the tips at all. They have never damaged a bow yet.

I have made many dozens of laminated longbows and haven't had problems caused by the strings.

We have all used Flemish Twist strings and usually use a few extra stands in the loops to make them a little thicker.

The DF strings have two big advantages. The first one - the reason I started to use them - is it virtually eliminates handshock.

The second avantage is the increase in arra speed. We found it increased arra speeds on average about 7fps. This speed increase would be like shooting a bow that was 5lbs heavier.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff

That is really good info and the 7fps is impressive. The thickness of the string at the loops as in a Flemish Twist seems from your post to be the important factor. I guess a conventional FF or DF as used in a target recurve, without extra thickness of loop would have some risk associated with it?

#5 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:11 pm

BC,

With endless strings you really only have a little over half the thickness (half the strands and serving) of a fleshish twist string. With lighter poundages I think the endless DF strings would be OK but I haven't tried them. I like felmish twist strings.

For my 60 - 70 pound range bows I use 12 strands of DF and use 4 extra strands of Dacron in the loops.

Jeff

LBR · #6 Post by **LBR** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:46 am

How the bow was made, and how the string is made, will generally dictate if a low stretch material can be used. I've seen several bows break, but only two that could be directly attributed to the string that was on them. Both were very old recurves, both were using FF strings (flemish), and both had the limb tips literally sawn off.

That told me two things--one, the string grooves were not cut at the proper angle and the string material was abrading the bow; and two, the loops were not padded, not round, or both (poorly made strings).

I'm not a bowyer by any stretch, but I do know a bit about making strings. I've researched them for many years, along with making thousands of strings, so I can't help but learn a bit about the bows along the way. I've been told that the string grooves must be cut at the proper angle for the low stretch materials, since they are so strong they can cut through the bow if there is much friction. Reinforced limb tips will help also (horn, micarta, phenolic, etc.)

I've been shooting the same longbow for probably 10 years. I'm pulling 66@30.5, and it's NEVER had a dacron string on it. I have shot 450+ and 8125 on it, but for the most part it's had Dynaflight '97 on it. I always pad the loops for a little added assurance.

Whether it's a longbow or recurve won't make a difference--it will either be made to accept these materials, or not. I also shoot Dynaflight '97 on my selfbow, but I've only had it for a few months so I don't know how it will work out in the long run. I did start with a dacron string on it, but the hand shock with dacron was unacceptable. Dynaflight calmed it down a LOT.

There's a lot of fables going around about string materials. It seems that if a bow fails and has anything other than a dacron string on it, the string gets the blame--but I've seen many more fail with dacron than with FF type materials. Even some of the better bowyers cling to misconceptions about string materials--I know of at least one that will warranty his bow with FF, but not with Dynaflight, even though they are basically the same product. He's had a riser break with the customer using a Dynaflight string--I know the fellow, and my bet is he failed to tell the bowyer he was also using very light carbon arrows at the time.

I can only give my personal experience here, but considering I've never had a problem using Dynaflight strings--and I'm the type that can tear up an anvil with a cotton ball without even trying (Murphy's Law works overtime with me it seems)--I'll keep using it on my recurve and longbows.

Chad

Brumbies Country · #7 Post by **Brumbies Country** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:23 am

Thanks Jeff and Mick

Really appreciate the information. The extra 7fps is an impressive increase in performance and it is good to know, that provided the loops are thick enough, there is no risk to the LB. Seems I am going to have to teach myself to do a Flemish twist.

Brumbies Country · #8 Post by **Brumbies Country** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:37 am

LBR wrote:How the bow was made, and how the string is made, will generally dictate if a low stretch material can be used. I've seen several bows break, but only two that could be directly attributed to the string that was on them. Both were very old recurves, both were using FF strings (flemish), and both had the limb tips literally sawn off.

That told me two things--one, the string grooves were not cut at the proper angle and the string material was abrading the bow; and two, the loops were not padded, not round, or both (poorly made strings).

I'm not a bowyer by any stretch, but I do know a bit about making strings. I've researched them for many years, along with making thousands of strings, so I can't help but learn a bit about the bows along the way. I've been told that the string grooves must be cut at the proper angle for the low stretch materials, since they are so strong they can cut through the bow if there is much friction. Reinforced limb tips will help also (horn, micarta, phenolic, etc.)

I've been shooting the same longbow for probably 10 years. I'm pulling 66@30.5, and it's NEVER had a dacron string on it. I have shot 450+ and 8125 on it, but for the most part it's had Dynaflight '97 on it. I always pad the loops for a little added assurance.

Whether it's a longbow or recurve won't make a difference--it will either be made to accept these materials, or not. I also shoot Dynaflight '97 on my selfbow, but I've only had it for a few months so I don't know how it will work out in the long run. I did start with a dacron string on it, but the hand shock with dacron was unacceptable. Dynaflight calmed it down a LOT.

There's a lot of fables going around about string materials. It seems that if a bow fails and has anything other than a dacron string on it, the string gets the blame--but I've seen many more fail with dacron than with FF type materials. Even some of the better bowyers cling to misconceptions about string materials--I know of at least one that will warranty his bow with FF, but not with Dynaflight, even though they are basically the same product. He's had a riser break with the customer using a Dynaflight string--I know the fellow, and my bet is he failed to tell the bowyer he was also using very light carbon arrows at the time.

I can only give my personal experience here, but considering I've never had a problem using Dynaflight strings--and I'm the type that can tear up an anvil with a cotton ball without even trying (Murphy's Law works overtime with me it seems)--I'll keep using it on my recurve and longbows.

Chad

Thanks Chad

Interesting that both you and Jeff mention the reduction in handshock with Dynaflight. I was looking at increased performance, but the handshock reduction, in retrospect is a real winner. Lot of interesting stuff here. When you are talking about extra padding I presume you are talking about extra serving on the loops, or are you including something else?

Simon

#9 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:35 am

BC,

You don't serve the loops of a Flemish Twist string you add in a few extra short stands in the loops.

Chad actually has a DVD for sale which shows how to make Flemish Twist strings and I believe it is very good.

By the way, welcome back Chad and hope you are enjoying married life.

There is a thread of congrats on on your marriage on here somewhere in case you didn't notice.

Jeff

danceswithdingoes · #10 Post by **danceswithdingoes** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:04 am

I'm with these guys, I use dynaflight triple bundle flemish on my bows, the flemish tends to have a small amount of shock absorption in the plaits which greatly reduces handshock. My last strings were 2 colour triple 450+ flemish from Kustom King in the US and landed here for around $15AU each.

LBR · #11 Post by **LBR** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:13 am

Thanks Jeff! I had a great time, but I'm glad to be back. I did learn one thing--I'll never leave for 3 weeks straight again (unless I get a chance to visit Oz of course!)! I've been too piled up to pay much attention to the boards--I had almost 400 e-mails when I got home, plus snail mail and phone calls. Now I've got around 50 strings to get made up, plus lots of other things I've fallen behind on--I played, so now I have to pay! lol Oh well, it was worth it!

What's the title of the thread? I'd like to leave a "thanks" there as well.

Chad

#12 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:03 am

BC,

Check your PM's mate.

Chad,

Glad you had a good break. I guess you've gotta do some work now to pay for your your trip down here. By the way, you should put up some details and a link to your site in the 'Materials' forum in the 'Resources' section.

That good wishes thread is here: http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3863

Jeff

Brumbies Country · #13 Post by **Brumbies Country** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:09 pm

Well, a friend made me a Dyna Flight Flemish string and I have to say the reduction in handshock is truly impressive. I really thank the guys here who gave me the good oil re this. I had a fusion of the C5-C6 and C6-C7 (neck) vertebrae just over two years ago and wondered if I'd ever shoot a longbow. After almost a year and a half of BB recurve or relatively light poundage I switched to a 45 lb LB last November. Still wondered a bit to now but the reduction in handshock makes it quite a bit easier on the rest of the upper musculo-skeletal system.

I had a few shots in the dark Wednesday and Thursday then broke a maxim of mine; that being to only shoot in competition what you've practised with for a fair while. It felt so good that I couldn't resist, went to an ABA shoot over the weekend and never quite adapted to the increased arrow speed, shooting high an awful lot. I will adapt though with a bit more practice, meanwhile my body is going to thank me for the transition and again I thank you guys for putting me onto this.

#14 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:59 pm

That is great news mate!!! All the best with your shooting.

Jeff