asian composite build-along

Where to source materials etc. Also the place to show off your new bow or quiver etc.... Making things belongs in Traditional Crafts.

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archangel
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asian composite build-along

#1 Post by archangel » Thu May 25, 2006 8:22 pm

Following excellent advice via Atarn site, I have finally put together a composite bow using bamboo on the belly. This has been a radical rethink, as my previous attempts have all featured bamboo on the back. The laminations are 4 mm (parallel) rock maple spliced at the handle with 2 mm hickory as a mid-lamination, and 2.5mm natural flooring on the back. Glueing was done by wrapping with twine and tightening with bamboo wedges. Two-part epoxy was used and the wrapped bow was left near a wood stove to dry overnight.

The siyahs were an interesting construction ... they were formed in two pieces separate from the limbs, using bamboo flooring laminated with rock maple veneer. The ears were carved from local marri hardwood and buff horn string nocks were added. String bridges were added for authenticity and performance. Splicing them into the limbs was achieved by cutting a "V" into each end and carefully shaping the base of the ears to match.

The final stages will include wrapping all of the joints, especially the siyahs, with silk and string to minimise any stress. Once the tillering is finished, it will be stain and backed it with two layers of du Poin white silk. Hoped for draw length - 30" and final weight? dunno ... I'll be happy if it holds a string right now.
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MaylandL
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#2 Post by MaylandL » Thu May 25, 2006 10:07 pm

Looks great! Looking forward to it when its strung and shooting :)
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Graeme K
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#3 Post by Graeme K » Thu May 25, 2006 11:26 pm

Really interesting construction. It will be intrigued to see how the bamboo flooring holds up to the tension loads when it is strung and drawn. I guess the flooring is not as strong in tension as the natural bamboo is in compression ( but who knows as there are no figures for either ) . But if so the bow should not loose too much shape. Am waiting with anticipation to see the result
Regardless it looks great now and the only way to find out if it works is to try it ( or in my case wait and see ) 8)
Great work -- dont take to long to finish it as I am impatient :?

Graeme

PS what epoxy are you using

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#4 Post by Chris » Fri May 26, 2006 4:55 am

Nice very nice
When you have it shooting can I come up and have a look?
Mayland do you want to go for a drive?

Chris

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#5 Post by MaylandL » Fri May 26, 2006 9:03 pm

Chris wrote:...Mayland do you want to go for a drive?
Well Archangel and I did have a quick chat about having a shoot at Sunset when he's next down Perth way.

Also kinda toying with the idea of another Perth Trad archer get together similar to the jamboree last time.

Happy shooting all :)
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#6 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat May 27, 2006 5:12 pm

Looking forward to seeing the progress.

Jeff

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stringing problems

#7 Post by archangel » Sat May 27, 2006 8:19 pm

MaylandL wrote:
Archangel and I did have a quick chat about having a shoot at Sunset when he's next down Perth way
.
Sorry MaylandL and Chris ... thought I would be able to come down this weekend but my daughter is heading up to see us for the weekend. Will be in touch when something definite can be arranged.

Progress report
Managed to get some more work done on the bow today. A new handle has been glued to the belly to support the centre laminations. The siyahs were wrapped temporarily with hemp string and first tentative steps to bend it begun. It flexed beautifully, the bamboo on the belly adding plenty of power under compression. The problems started when I tried to slip a string onto the nocks using a bow stringer. Uh, uh ... definitely not the correct way to string one of these bows. The long siyahs have a lot of torque and tend to twist the limbs.

I recalled how MaylandL strung his horsebow using his knees and tried the same technique. I may need to make a special tillering/stringing board with pegs at just the right spots to support the limbs. Looks like it's back to Atarn to study how to string a composite bow. There is a regular contributor to the site who writes under "Bede" - he is from Sydney and is very knowledgeable about horn bows and their historical background. I will invite him to join our site if he is interested.

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#8 Post by archangel » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:04 pm

Challenges continue
More progress made on the bamboo composite bow. I was not happy with the handle, as it kept peeling off the back of the bow. Finally after much reading of the bowmaking techniques on Atarn, I took the radical step of cutting the bow in half and eliminating the unsatisfactory handle. I made a new handle from a block of hardwood, cutting a V-splice into each end. Tapering the ends of each limb to match the V-splice, they were glued/fitted tightly into the riser then left to harden overnight. All going well, the resulting bow will have a deeper deflexed riser, reflexed static siyahs and increased bracing height. Pics to follow later this week.

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Binding and sealing joins

#9 Post by MaylandL » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:44 pm

G'day ArchAngel

I'm looking forward to having a look at the bow. Something that occurred to me. The handle and the siyahs of my mongolian bow is bound with some form of strong thread (perhaps hemp). Whatever the material it also looks like it is sealed. This may well be necessary to reinforce the joins (limbs to handle and limbs to siyahs).

Having seen all of the bows in Grozer's range, the binding seems to the present in his reproductions.

Check out http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.p ... =mongolian for pics of my bow and www.grozerarchery.comk for pics of bindings on his horsebows.

Happy shooting :)
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#10 Post by archangel » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:13 pm

MaylandL wrote:
The handle and the siyahs of my mongolian bow is bound with some form of strong thread (perhaps hemp). Whatever the material it also looks like it is sealed. This may well be necessary to reinforce the joins (limbs to handle and limbs to siyahs).
:D G'day and thanks MaylandL. It was good to revisit these threads and take a good look at the wrapping on the Grozer bows. Will definitely be wrapping all of the joins as you have suggested. The purpose will be functional, to reinforce the join, as well as aesthetic. I have several threads, including black hemp twine and fine gold wire.

Progress has been good ... today I lifted off the clamps and the V-splices have held really well. I got stuck into the riser, rasping and sanding back the fades, shaping the handle at the same time. I enjoy this part of shaping then checking the grip for comfort as you work. The last stage before packing up was to reinforce the whole riser area with a piece of carbon fibre, then covering the whole back with a strip of 150-thread navy linen. I have had more success with linen backing (instead of silk) and believe it will look better on this bow. Instead of cutting the strip with scissors, I tear it to get ragged edges. This creates a feathered effect that glues down better as it wraps around the edges of the limbs. This will get sanded back at the edges after 24 hours.

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#11 Post by MaylandL » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:02 pm

archangel wrote:... The last stage before packing up was to reinforce the whole riser area with a piece of carbon fibre, then covering the whole back with a strip of 150-thread navy linen. I have had more success with linen backing (instead of silk) and believe it will look better on this bow. ...
Hello ArchAngel

I was checking out the web was visiting the Spitfire Archery website ( http://www.spitfirehorsebows.com/bows.htm ). He uses graphite for his composites. He also binds the bows by the look of them.

Happy shooting :)
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more progress

#12 Post by archangel » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:45 am

Looked okay but disappointing result when I tried a string ... way too much deflex with a very high bracing height. Back to resplicing a new handle with much less deflex this time.
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#13 Post by yeoman » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:48 am

That looks good, but almost as if it's braced already, without string!

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#14 Post by Jeff » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:48 am

:D awesome bow mate. job well done. i also have a horse bow it is a real fine shooter. keep up the good work. cheers jeff
MAY THE SPIRIT OF THE WOLF WATCH OVER YOU AND KEEP YOU SAFE

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#15 Post by archangel » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:54 am

Wolfman

Thanks for the interest. More photos coming this afternoon of the handle re-splicing - I am fascinated by the performance and construction of these bows so it has been a really interesting challenge. By the way, I will be in Auckland in July for 8 days visiting family: any chance of catching up? Send me a PM with contact details.

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#16 Post by greybeard » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:46 pm

Archangel,
Well done. The next one will be even better. The only time we fail is when we fail to try.
Whilst playing around with an adjustable form for making bamboo backed bows I decided to find out how versatile this type of form was for making other styles of bows.
The adjustable form is of the type Dean Torges uses for his successful range of bamboo backed hunting bows. I was fortunate to meet Dean and shoot several of his bows some years back. Unsure of what I was doing I thought "in for a penny, in for a pound, nothing ventured and nothing gained." At the end of the experiment I finished up with a 45 inch bow that drew 42# at 28 inches. The maximum speed I could get from the bow was 162 feet per second using 450 grain wood arrows. The over riding point was that I could get a 28" draw out of a 45" bow. The bow was all bamboo but the later designs incorporate a thin ironbark lamination in the core. It would appear that the ironbark helps to give the bow better recovery. If anyone out there has any ideas on these types of bows your input would be most welcome. I have included a couple of photos of the bows. The bow with the ironbark core ended up at 54 inches because of the longer siyahs.
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Glenn Newell

#17 Post by Glenn Newell » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:21 pm

Nice work Daryl, beautiful looking bows...Glenn...

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#18 Post by Graeme K » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:36 pm

Hi Greybeard
Really nice work. Very interested in your laminations. You say all bamboo and then bamboo with an Iironbark core.
Does this mean you have raw bamboo back and belly. If so how do you deal with the different bend rates caused by the nodes?
I am also interested in the adjustable form you talk about.

Graeme

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#19 Post by archangel » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:01 pm

Greybeard

Thanks for posting your composite bows - fantastic to see some Australia craft in this area. They really are an inspiration to press on with bamboo. Like Graeme, I am also keen to hear more about their construction, especially the splicing of the siyahs into the bamboo back/belly. Did you build up the handle section by wrapping or glueing extra laminations?

I have made more modifications to the bow, V-splicing a jarrah handle cut to fit each limb. These joins will be expoxied before over-wrapping with silk and string. The back of the riser will have extra laminations built up to strengthen the joins.
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#20 Post by yeoman » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:08 am

Archangel, your bow is looking good.

At a guess and looking at the pics, I'd say that greybeard achieves his siyahs by having a tapered curved lamination in between the back and belly at the tips, but I'm sure that greybeard will set us all straight on this.

Greybeard:

I, and many others on this site no doubt, would very much enjoy reading a more in depth description of the process you go through to make one of these beasts.

I personally have been toiling for a long time with computer modelling, trying to figure how to mae one without having it blow apart. Apparently the answer is simply to try to make one, huh?

Cheers,

Dave
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#21 Post by greybeard » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:06 pm

Hi!
Thank you for the positive feedback on the static tip bows. I apologize for being a little brief in the detail of the bows construction but I found it was "a suck and see" type of exercise when I first started making these bows.

Because I wanted to build durability into the bows I departed from the traditional Turkish method of constructing such bows. It may help to have a full sized drawing of the intended bow to use as a reference during construction. The bows shown in the previous photos consist of three core laminations plus a bamboo back and belly. I prepare the laminations; handle section and siyahs to a common width so that correct alignment can be maintained. Depending on the core material and required bow weight the laminations are between 1 and 2mm thick. Thin laminations allow you to achieve tighter curves.

The process that I use may have eight or more glue ups but I found this necessary because you could have nine or more components to bring together. I will try to be brief in the detail. The first glue up entails gluing the handle and siyahs to a core lamination (belly side of handle and siyahs) using "G" clamps on a flat surface and having the lamination on edge. Use Gladwrap or packaging tape on your bench top to stop the components becoming a permanent feature of your bench. You may need to use scraps of timber to protect the laminations from the clamps.

This lamination then becomes the platform on which to complete the bow. Using the adjustable form you can then apply another lamination to the back of the handle and siyahs. By doing this the handle section and siyahs are firmly held in the bow. Before each glue up I do a dry clamp up to make sure the components fit correctly. With each lamination applied you will need to fade them out on the siyahs so that the final back and belly laminations fade out properly. For the final back and belly bamboo laminations the bigger the diameter of the pole the better which gives a flatter crown.

It is advisable to have the plan of the bow marked out on the back core lamination so you can remove the excess before applying the final back and belly laminations. If need be make a cardboard template to enable you to mark out the shape on the outer laminations. Cut the laminations to the template and remove the softer inner of the bamboo until you almost have a knife edge. By doing this you will get a natural taper in the lamination. The bamboo back is butt joined at the centre of the handle because I cut "twins" so that the nodes are equally spaced on both limbs. Similarly I do the same with the belly lamination but cut in such a manner that these nodes fall in between the nodes on the back. With the adjustable form you can move the position of the posts and substitute different height posts to achieve the desired shape. I use "F" clamps on the posts to pull the bow into the shape and small "G" clamps on the limbs between the posts.

You can modify the posts to suit each application. If you are accurate with your laminations the bow will be "almost tillered" when it comes out of the form.
In your design allow up to an inch or so on the end posts to allow for string follow.

I also use this form for deflex longbows etc. and will put in a separate post for a short longbow made on this form.

If you have truck loads of patience and time, about four years and want to make a bow in the traditional way there is book titled "Turkish Archery And The Composite Bow"(third edition)by Paul E. Klopsteg.

Hoping the above helps in some way to explain the process?

Daryl.
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#22 Post by greybeard » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:58 pm

Hi!
In my last posting I neglected to mention the little string bridges that stop the string going around the siyahs or limb depending on their width once you loose the arrow. I have found that the best way to determine the position is to draw the bow (using the tiller string) to the braced position on the tiller board and determine where the bow string will make contact. The bridge shown in the photo was glued to the limb and then bound with serving material. I apply Danish Oil over the serving to stop it moving.
Daryl.
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THANKS!!

#23 Post by archangel » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:14 pm

Daryl

Your pictures and detailed explanation are worth anything!! They have filled in so many answers to questions raised during a long and frustrating process of trying to make a successful composite short bow. No amount of research on Atarn and other sites has helped quite as much as your thread posting. Goes to show there's no substitute for asking a bloke with more experience than myself.

The final picture of the siyah close-up not only explains how you set up your string bridge, but clearly shows the shape and taper of the siyah into the laminations. What timber did you use for the siyahs? Your moveable post set up is pretty much the same as the one I have been using but I like the large cicrcular form you used to get the final reflexed curve. Like yourself, glueing the raw bamboo is done in subsequent stages. However I have not tried two-stage glueing of the back and belly to the handle and siyahs with such thin mid-laminations.

Will finish this one, then start again on Mark 4 model.

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#24 Post by greybeard » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:51 pm

Hi!
The siyahs are hard rock maple and ironbark. The grain direction is slightly offset for more strength. The fadeout in the siyahs could have been a little finer.
Daryl.
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#25 Post by greybeard » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:51 pm

Hi!
I have received several enquiries regarding certain details on the "Asian" style bow. The methods I use are by no means the only way to make the bow but more so what I have found what works for me. Don't be afraid to experiment.

All core laminations are parallel and I cut mine from the pole. I don't know of anyone who has had success using bamboo flooring. Of the 1,200 or so varieties of bamboo only a handful are suitable for bow making. The poles I get are bleached (by the sun, I think and are buff to yellow gold in colour) as poles also imported green but treated with something to kill the bugs.
From memory I think I am using Mosso (not sure if the spelling is correct). All bamboo bows seem to draw forever but appear sluggish in recovery unless under glass. Using thin a hard wood lamination such as iron bark with bamboo laminations I believe gives the bow more grunt and better recovery. As you would appreciate the hard wood needs to be thinner for the "Asian style" static tip bow as compared to a reflex / deflex longbow. Lamination thickness is determined by the width and length of the limbs. If using all bamboo core laminations stagger them so that the node areas are spread through the limb rather than lining up. To achieve this, the laminations have to be cut over length. The bamboo used for the back and belly laminations are cut to the plan of limbs and the softer inner pith of bamboo is removed so that the edges are almost a knife edge. The end result should be that the crown at the handle end of the lamination is 3 to 4 mm and at the tip about 1 mm. depending on pole diameter. If the nodes are a little rough they can be sanded a little but not flattened.
The core laminations back to belly were 1.8mm bamboo, 1mm ironbark and 2.8 mm bamboo.

I never do any tillering until the bows construction is complete.
When finishing the bow you can scrape the waxy rind off the surface but avoid scraping into the power fibres.

Daryl.
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#26 Post by yeoman » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:16 pm

Daryl,

Thanks again for your continued genersoity with sharing your experience and knowledge. I do however have another question for you.

What is the shape of your taper along the width of the limb? You mention using a template laid on the stave, but not what shape it is. Any chance of a scale drawing?

That pic of a 72" lamination in an 11" circle is awesome. Is that for a longbow or was it cut down for composite replicas?

Cheers,

Dave
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hardwood lamination

#27 Post by archangel » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:07 pm

Daryl

I support Yeoman's comments. This really as been a really informative shared thread. I like the sandwich made from hardwood and hard rock maple for the siyahs - nice touch to add strength. Regarding the hardwood lamination, what other timbers would you recommend? I have tried hard rock maple and it seemed to work well with 2 lams of vertical flooring. I also have some nice veneer-thin strips of celery top from Tasmania and local WA hardwoods, marri and jarrah.

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#28 Post by greybeard » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:51 pm

Hi!
The shape of the taper depends on the width and length of the limbs. The core laminations are 35mm wide and where they meet the siyahs is about 18mm. The core (between the handle fadeout and siyah fadeout) was 21 inches. Once evaluating the dried core laminations by gently pulling the tips back while the handle is rested on the chest I get an idea of how the core will bend. At this point I mark out the pattern on the back lamination and remove the excess timber. Basically I go almost parallel to mid limb and then curve towards the siyahs. I then make the template off this which is transferred to the final back and belly laminations.. This profile may change slightly during final tillering. Although I may seem a little vague and as there are no mathematical or scientific calucations to cater for all the variations when dealing with natural fibres you have to run with a 'gut' feeling.
The photo of the 72" hardwood lamination was put in to show the versatility of hard wood but primarily was an experiment to find out how finely I could adjust my lamination grinder and have a uniform lamination thickness. The sample in the photo was under 1mm in thickness. The new bow will have less bamboo and more hardwood in the core but using thin laminations.
Celery top could work well but I have only had experience with it in longbows. When selecting hard woods any reasonably straight grained piece should suffice but remember to turn the laminations to allow for variations in grain direction. Usually I have found that the heavier the timber the better. The best advice I can offer is to try various timbers for their properties before putting them in the bow.
Daryl.

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#29 Post by greybeard » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:15 pm

Hi!

I have included a picture of the finished rock maple and iron bark siyah as well as a useful tool to help shape the string grooves in the siyah that can't be done with a standard round file.

This tool/blade is used by ceramic tilers to cut shapes in wall tiles. It can be bent to shape to get into difficult areas of the siyah.

Daryl.
Siyah Detail.jpg
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#30 Post by archangel » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:11 pm

greybeard

That is an interesting tool and the photo is particularly useful to see how you handled the spliced siyah and string track. I have been out today gathering all the materials for a new composite, including rock maple and sheoak. Hope to start in the next few weeks after I complete some new footed shafts. Is there any chance of a PDF of the handle shape? I am having a difficult job getting the right fades to match on both the back and belly.

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